Account of Purchase of a 1984 M635CSi

[wkohler]

I think the seller's response is almost more deplorable than the original act. Some people. I was pretty much thinking the same as Paul.

[Kyle in NO]

Forgot to throw in that the entire "redone" interior is completely done in friggin VINYL!!! Disgusting.

[TSMacNeil]

In Ed Smaglik's descriptions of our transaction, he states “Mr. Jones communicated that he had not seen the car in person.” This is completely true. I made it clear to him that I had never seen the car, which he concedes; nonetheless, he still wished to go forward. When I said “I don’t know of anything the car needs” that is what I meant. On something I have no first-hand experience with, I can only go on what I am told, and what I see in the very same pictures he received and saw. I am sorry he does not like the car, I truly am; but he knew what he was doing, and bought the car sight unseen--just like I did. I listed it for sale with all the information I had accumulated on the car. I gave him every opportunity to inspect it or have someone inspect it. He made me an offer for $3,000 more than I had it for sale for, which was for $10,000. So it is not like I stood to make any money on the car, considering the costs I had put into it. Then, I sent him a blank copy of the bill of sale so he had a chance to read over it and make sure it was what he wanted to do. I did not pressure him at all. Then I gave him 3 days after he signed the bill of sale to pay for the car. I stored the car at no cost to him after he executed a contract on it which I did not have to do. I had a mechanic check the car out at no cost to him as he wanted the timing chain and guides checked and pictures of that were provided to him. I even offered to trailer the car to AL for right at fuel cost so he would not have to drive so far back to AZ. I believe I went well above and beyond the call of duty for him in delivering to him what he bought. Again I regret that he is unhappy with his purchase, but I believe he received a fair value for what he paid.

Kevin Jones
KTJ Trading Inc

Guys, I'm pretty tired..I've flown over 9000 miles this week...but I have to say something here.

One of the many things I have learned here is that this group of people are fairly savvy overall. That translates to "don't try to play a game with these guys"..

I've read your response...it's typical.

The lesson should be this: do unto others as you'd have done unto you....

I read a lesson in escapism.....maybe it would work somewhere else....here: notsomuch

[Tucker]

Per the quoted ebay text...

The sensation of driving this car is much like that of a modern 911.

um... maybe if you've never, ever driven a 911 of any era and have no idea what you're talking about...


I know a guy that paid around this amount for an M635 with no rust in CA that's needed lots & lots of heavy mechanical attention, and I always felt he got ripped off, but this makes his look like the buy of the century. I hope this comes out favorably for the buyer somehow. You can't pull shit like this around communities like this. Beyond that, I don't have anything else to say that hasn't already been eloquently expressed here...

[C.R. Krieger]

Forgot to throw in that the entire "redone" interior is completely done in friggin VINYL!!! Disgusting.

You can't even GET an M635CSi with a vinyl interior - unless you do it yourself.

While I'm distant from the transaction, and more objective as a result, this 'last straw' stuns me. I can understand how one might do a vinyl interior on one's own daily driver (as pretty much everything else on this car suggests it should be), but to do that to a borderline collector car and then turn around and sell it for a premium price is downright shameful. Kevin, I daresay you'll have a very difficult time selling anything past this group any time in the foreseeable future - and our word travels fast and far. If I were you, I'd explore ways to fix this problem right now.

[tsmall07]

It's hard to believe that a little cash right now is worth someone losing their reputation forever. I'd imagine it would be a lot more cost effective in the long run to take this one back and make it right.

[C.R. Krieger]

It's hard to believe that a little cash right now is worth someone losing their reputation forever. I'd imagine it would be a lot more cost effective in the long run to take this one back and make it right.

Well, in spite of all the popular sentiment, that's not the only available solution. The car is worth something and a sale has occurred. It may be that the best settlement is in between, where the parties agree on a price that it is actually worth, and the seller refunds part of the purchase price. I've settled a number of "all or nothing" demands by pointing out that there are alternative solutions that hadn't occurred to anyone.

[Kenny Blankenship]

In Ed Smaglik's descriptions of our transaction, he states “Mr. Jones communicated that he had not seen the car in person.” This is completely true. I made it clear to him that I had never seen the car, which he concedes; nonetheless, he still wished to go forward. When I said “I don’t know of anything the car needs” that is what I meant. On something I have no first-hand experience with, I can only go on what I am told, and what I see in the very same pictures he received and saw. I am sorry he does not like the car, I truly am; but he knew what he was doing, and bought the car sight unseen--just like I did. I listed it for sale with all the information I had accumulated on the car. I gave him every opportunity to inspect it or have someone inspect it. He made me an offer for $3,000 more than I had it for sale for, which was for $10,000. So it is not like I stood to make any money on the car, considering the costs I had put into it. Then, I sent him a blank copy of the bill of sale so he had a chance to read over it and make sure it was what he wanted to do. I did not pressure him at all. Then I gave him 3 days after he signed the bill of sale to pay for the car. I stored the car at no cost to him after he executed a contract on it which I did not have to do. I had a mechanic check the car out at no cost to him as he wanted the timing chain and guides checked and pictures of that were provided to him. I even offered to trailer the car to AL for right at fuel cost so he would not have to drive so far back to AZ. I believe I went well above and beyond the call of duty for him in delivering to him what he bought. Again I regret that he is unhappy with his purchase, but I believe he received a fair value for what he paid.

Kevin Jones
KTJ Trading Inc

We have already smacked around Mr. Smaglik enough in this thread, he knows where we stand.

Now it's your turn...

Is there anything in your ad that states you have not seen the car yourself? Look at the first three words of your ad..."Pristine and stunning"...there is nothing pristine or stunning about this car.

Look at the sentence before your description..."Seller assumes all responsibility for listing". Well, you should be taking responsibility for it.

Do you make major five-figure purchases by "... only go on what I am told, and what I see in...pictures..."??? If not, then why are you selling things on that basis?

Your weak excuses ("he received fair value for what he paid") tell me you know nothing about the used BMW market. Or at the very least, you take advantage of those less knowledgeable. And you have lost a group of potential future customers.

[wkohler]

One big problem is that the transaction was not completed through eBay.

[cvillebimmer]

Your weak excuses ("he received fair value for what he paid") tell me you know nothing about the used BMW market. Or at the very least, you take advantage of those less knowledgeable.

The latter.

However, I thought the blue text in his response was a nice touch.

[Adam W in MN]

One big problem is that the transaction was not completed through eBay.

Agreed. This is reading like an account of how to NOT buy a vintage car.

[rlomba8204]

In Ed Smaglik's descriptions of our transaction, he states “Mr. Jones communicated that he had not seen the car in person.” This is completely true. I made it clear to him that I had never seen the car, which he concedes; nonetheless, he still wished to go forward. When I said “I don’t know of anything the car needs” that is what I meant. On something I have no first-hand experience with, I can only go on what I am told, and what I see in the very same pictures he received and saw. I am sorry he does not like the car, I truly am; but he knew what he was doing, and bought the car sight unseen--just like I did. I listed it for sale with all the information I had accumulated on the car. I gave him every opportunity to inspect it or have someone inspect it. He made me an offer for $3,000 more than I had it for sale for, which was for $10,000. So it is not like I stood to make any money on the car, considering the costs I had put into it. Then, I sent him a blank copy of the bill of sale so he had a chance to read over it and make sure it was what he wanted to do. I did not pressure him at all. Then I gave him 3 days after he signed the bill of sale to pay for the car. I stored the car at no cost to him after he executed a contract on it which I did not have to do. I had a mechanic check the car out at no cost to him as he wanted the timing chain and guides checked and pictures of that were provided to him. I even offered to trailer the car to AL for right at fuel cost so he would not have to drive so far back to AZ. I believe I went well above and beyond the call of duty for him in delivering to him what he bought. Again I regret that he is unhappy with his purchase, but I believe he received a fair value for what he paid.

Kevin Jones
KTJ Trading Inc

That is such a crock of sh!t. But hey, at least we know what your integrity is worth to you: $13k. How's it feel?

To the others reading about this trainwreck, this is reason #1 that you never buy a used car sight unseen. While there are many good and decent people in the world, in my experience too many of the dirtbags and other low-lifes congregate in the used car sales business. Never buy cars sight unseen and without an inspection, and avoid buying cars on Ebay. While there are more protections on Ebay than without Ebay, buying a car on Ebay is like having sex with a condom that has holes. It'll probably work, but you never know. My advice is to avoid Ebay as well. And not just because Ebay is a shady organization in my mind and experience, but because anytime the "rules" or structure of a forum, in this case an auction, encourage you to abandon caution and diligence, you are in a bad position from a negotiating and leverage position. Best move is not to play.

To the seller, rest assured that what goes around comes around in this world.

[Shawn D.]

When I said “I don’t know of anything the car needs” that is what I meant. On something I have no first-hand experience with, I can only go on what I am told, and what I see in the very same pictures he received and saw.

Hmm... plausible deniability? It sounds as if you've told your minions "If this car has anything wrong with it or needs anything, don't tell inform me in any manner, because then I can claim 'I don’t know of anything the car needs'."

[mooseheadm5]

When I said “I don’t know of anything the car needs” that is what I meant. On something I have no first-hand experience with, I can only go on what I am told, and what I see in the very same pictures he received and saw.

Hmm... plausible deniability? It sounds as if you've told your minions "If this car has anything wrong with it or needs anything, don't tell inform me in any manner, because then I can claim 'I don’t know of anything the car needs'."

Or perhaps there was a lot of sticking fingers in ears while saying "lalalalalalala I'm not listening lalalalalalalala" when any issues were brought up.

[nnarth212]

Only a used car salesmen would have the balls to sell a car he hadn't seen and yet declare it "Pristine and stunning." This is gross.

That pungent odor is his suit --still reeking of the corpse from which it was robbed. Had anyone met the man in person...

Truly-- FUBAR.

Just gross. I need to take a shower.

The antidote to all this, I get a little warm and fuzzy, is the confidence I have in the fine members of this forum.

[ScottWL38]

The car has less than 100 miles on a brand new paint job. The chassis has only 110,000 miles on it making this an extremely low mileage example. At roughly 4,250 miles per year, the car has been exercised just enough to keep the condition as you see it in the pictures.

Odometer inop

Let's start with one assumption:

The clear title was turned over with the mileage that the car's odometer had indicated as a portion of the sale.


If so, and the odometer is broken, and it wasn't disclosed, that would most likely be some sort of fraud. An attorney could tell you for sure. In Georgia, it's also an offence for which you could be arrested and tossed in the pokey for a while. And of course, there are the fines. And did I mention there is also a Federal law?

From: http://www.odometertampering.com/

The cost and value of a vehicle is based upon its mileage. Under federal law, an automobile dealer is required to state the mileage on a used or new vehicle or state that the odometer reading is unknown (emphasis mine). When the odometer statute is violated, a legal claim can be made for:

1) violation of the state consumer fraud or deceptive practices statute,

2) violation of the federal odometer law, and its regulations,

3) breach of express and implied warranties.


I'm obviously not saying odometer fraud occured, but if it did, there are legal remedies that go beyond civil action.

In the end, it's easy for those of us on the outside looking in to tell you what you did wrong. Heck, you know that. What we really hope is you can figure out a way to recover your money.

For the seller to tell you it's your fault that you didn't verify that he was less than forthright is not just poor business, it defines him as a person.

[smaglik]

The car has less than 100 miles on a brand new paint job. The chassis has only 110,000 miles on it making this an extremely low mileage example. At roughly 4,250 miles per year, the car has been exercised just enough to keep the condition as you see it in the pictures.

Odometer inop

Let's start with one assumption:

The clear title was turned over with the mileage that the car's odometer had indicated as a portion of the sale.


If so, and the odometer is broken, and it wasn't disclosed, that would most likely be some sort of fraud. An attorney could tell you for sure. In Georgia, it's also an offence for which you could be arrested and tossed in the pokey for a while. And of course, there are the fines. And did I mention there is also a Federal law?

From: http://www.odometertampering.com/

The cost and value of a vehicle is based upon its mileage. Under federal law, an automobile dealer is required to state the mileage on a used or new vehicle or state that the odometer reading is unknown (emphasis mine). When the odometer statute is violated, a legal claim can be made for:

1) violation of the state consumer fraud or deceptive practices statute,

2) violation of the federal odometer law, and its regulations,

3) breach of express and implied warranties.


I'm obviously not saying odometer fraud occured, but if it did, there are legal remedies that go beyond civil action.

In the end, it's easy for those of us on the outside looking in to tell you what you did wrong. Heck, you know that. What we really hope is you can figure out a way to recover your money.

For the seller to tell you it's your fault that you didn't verify that he was less than forthright is not just poor business, it defines him as a person.

Thanks for the lead!

[TSMacNeil]

The antidote to all this, I get a little warm and fuzzy, is the confidence I have in the fine members of this forum.

I agree. While it certainly has a wide diversity of opinion, the core values of this group of people is pretty amazing....thats why I have made posts to that regard.