Ultimate E28 Interior (was Engine Choices)

[tig]

I am of the view that it defeats the purpose of owning/driving a E28 if it doesn't have a m30 engine. That's where its soul resides. My brother's stock E28-mB34 and Z4M-S54 are so totally opposite and yet I understand the eagerness of wanting such engine swap like the much admired Sia's ride, or TDC's latest corvette engined mega fun rocket (there should be a drooling smily just for that car, although it would not look good I guess).

I'd vote for any of the below engine swaps but possibly would add a 6 Speed to match if feasible.

- B35 Turbo by T_C_D (You already did this engine conversion on Vlad)
- B34 US 8.1 compression Non-Cat with a Turbo by T_C_D
- B34 Euro 10.1 compression (dirty engine) Non-cat with a Turbo by T_C_D
- Stroker from Korman
- S38 M5 You know you really long for

Charlie, with all do respect let your sweat and money make the best award winning E28 but as WKohler once said it best in your own Vlad thread; don't make it into what is not.

I hope that the fact that I love Vlad as much as I do, after pouring my heart & sweat (and money) into it, is evidence that I generally end up doing the right thing by me. Generally.

I appreciate everyone's perspectives (except, of course, Davintosh's electric ideas) here. I'm glad I can blow off steam with 'discussions' like this; it's a fantastic distraction for me...that actually makes me focus on my 'real' job better.

[tig]

The N54 idea is an interesting one. You know we had an N54 car until late last year: An E88 135i vert? That thing was pretty insane. Lovely exhaust notes too.

Weights: http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=233682

From:

For years people have been referencing the engine weights on
http://www.bimmerforums.com/engine_faq.php
and
http://www.unixnerd.demon.co.uk/enumber.html

Most of the engine weights on the 2 pages above are gotten from the weight BMW lists for the part "Short Engine" which can be seen on
http://bmwfans.info/

For example, this is the page for the US E36 M50 engine:
http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E36/S ... rt_engine/

Although the image for the "Short Engine" part shows the entire engine with both the block and head, these weights are commonly criticized and thought to be way too low and inaccurate for the entire assembled engine as it would be in the car.

I believe using the bmwfans.info is accurate, just not for the entire assembled engine. It obviously doesn't include manifolds and other parts attached to the engine.
But I do believe it includes at least the block and head as the picture shows. I think this because you can add up the weight of the block and head for the engine listed and see that it's much less than the "short engine".
For example:
http://bmwfans.info/parts/catalog/E30/2 ... se/engine/
M20 Short Engine - 257 lb
M20 Engine block with piston - 116 lb
M20 Cylinder head - 26 lb
116 + 26 = 142
So you can see their weight for the "Short Engine" is much more than just the block and head.
If you wanted, you could add up all the engine parts weights listed on that page and see how close it comes to the short engine weight. You could essentially figure out what the short engine includes from this or what the engine weighs with certain parts included. But I know it must be at least the block and head.

Also, on the unix nerd site, he lists most of the engines at the same weight as the bimmerforums FAQ, however, he lists some engines at very different weights than are reported by the short engine weight and the bimmerforums FAQ. I consider his website unreliable for engine weights since he is not consistent with using BMW's "Short Engine" weight or weights from official documentation or press releases.

Also note that the bimmerforums FAQ doesn't list exactly the same weight as the short engine weights on bmwfans.info for all the engines, although for the most part they do.
For example, they list the M50 at 299 lbs which is the same as the bmwfans short engine weight but they list the M30 at 315 lbs which is inconsistent with the bmwfans short engine weight which lists the M30 at the same weight as the m50, ~299 lbs.


Now for some more real realistic engine weights...

This website:
http://www.usautoparts.net/
lists BMW engines and their specifications including official weights reported by BMW in technical information documents or press releases. I have confirmed some of the weights and cross referenced them with BMW's reported weight for the ones I could find; and all of the ones I could find the weights for matched up. Going off that, I think it's safe to assume the are consistent with BMW's reported weight. These weights are much more than the "Short Engine" OEM parts weights and I think they are the best source to compare the engine weights since they are consistent with BMW's official documented weights. And these weights are much closer to what people on these forums have weighed fully dressed engines at.
They list almost every BMW engine with specs, however, they don't have weights for that many of them, and there are no weights for engines such as the US iron block M52/S52, but weights for the euro aluminum version.

Here are weights I gathered from that website unless otherwise noted:

Iron block M50B20 and M50B25
engine _____ weight(kg) _ weight(lbs)
non-VANOS _ 194 _______ 427.7
VANOS _____ 198 _______ 436.5
http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/engines/m50.htm
The US S50 should be the same as the VANOS M50 and the S52 should be very close to this weight as well.

Aluminum block M52B20 and M52B25
engine _______ weight(kg) _ weight(lbs)
VANOS _______ 166 _______ 366
Double VANOS _ 177 _______ 390.2
http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/engines/m52.htm

Aluminum block M52B28
engine _______ weight(kg) _ weight(lbs)
VANOS _______ 170 _______ 374.8
Double VANOS _ 180 _______ 396.8
http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/engines/m52.htm

engine _ weight(kg) _ weight(lbs)
M54 ___ 170 _______ 375
http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/engines/m54.htm

engine _ weight(kg) _ weight(lbs)
M60 ___ 210 _______ 463
http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/engines/m60.htm

M62
engine _____ weight(kg) _ weight(lbs)
non-VANOS _ 219 _______ 482.8
VANOS _____ 221 _______ 487.2
http://www.usautoparts.net/bmw/engines/m62.htm


Weights reported by BMW found elsewhere:

engine _____ weight(kg) _ weight(lbs)
S85 ________ 240 _______ 529
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_BMWs-M5- ... ticle.html

engine _____ weight(kg) _ weight(lbs)
S65 ________ 202 _______ 445
http://www.e90fanatics.com/pdf/the_new_bmw_m3.pdf

engine _____ weight(kg) _ weight(lbs)
S54 ________ 217 _______ 478
http://www.e90fanatics.com/pdf/the_new_bmw_m3.pdf
(States the the S65 is 15kg/33lbs less than the S54)

engine _____ weight(kg) _ weight(lbs)
N52 ________ 161 ______ 354.9 - Update: 326 lbs / 148 kg according to latest update below
N54 ________ 195 ______ 430
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N52
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_N54
http://www.mwerks.com/artman/publish/fe ... _960.shtml

Update - info on the new N20 engine!:

taken from -
http://wardsauto.com/news-amp-analysis/ ... -4-cyl-bar

I will add on to this list if I find anything else or if anyone else does.
Unfortunately I can't find anything for the older engines such as M10, M20, M30, and M42 that are reported by BMW documents or press releases like the ones above.

Other data I've collected:

• M20 = 180.3 kg = 397.49 lbs
• M20 + G260 transmission = 497lbs
• M30 + G260 transmission = 540lbs
• M52B28 = 148.85 kg = 328.16 lbs
• S52 weighed this way is 406 lbs w/o tranny and 512 with
• M70 with all accessories, without harness and injectors, with flex plate, with starter: 234.8kg/ 516.6lb

[oldskool]

An older Porsche V8 would be the cat's ass. Ya feelin' it?

[tig]

An older Porsche V8 would be the cat's ass. Ya feelin' it?

Yes, I do believe I am.

[WilNJ]

Flat crank V8. Ford or Ferrari. Your choice.

[Cactus]

Get a 2.3 pinto engine. Standard wrenches won't work because all the fasteners are already rounded out.

[mgoblue]

Anyone suggesting a LS motor, please show yourself the door

Simple, compact, LTW, inexpensive, reliable and any HP desired. Try applying those adjectives to any previously mentioned BMW engines.

[bkbimmer]

Old school f1 turbo'd m10.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5Dbp_SuMHE

[Jelmer538i]

S38B38! Lots of torque and suits an E28 very well.

[geordi]

Let the wife pick the engine and go from there… you need her onboard with this project. I don't want to be sleeping in the back yard when I come visit.

Sounds like a lot of good suggestions here. You are making me feel like a pussy going back to rebuilding the original m30b28 euro that came with my opal green metallic e28.

But if you are soliciting more input…
- a turbo diesel variant

What ever direction you choose, it will be a winner

[davintosh]

I appreciate everyone's perspectives (except, of course, Davintosh's electric ideas) here.

That hurts, Charlie. Really hurts.

I won't try to sell you on something you don't want -- it's your decision to make -- but you asked for options, and as I read your post, your criteria were as follows, and I think electric hits most every point:

• ... looking and being generally unique and cool.
  Check
• ... commute to work in it...
  Plug-in electrics are perfect for commuting.
• ... overall balance is important. Not too heavy. Not too light. Not too powerful. Not too squirrelly.
  Would require some creativity, but not out of the question. Battery technology has come a long way, baby.
• ... Not loud.
  Most definitely.
  
• ... Smooth torque curve.
  Absolutely. Unparalleled.
• ... I only want to use metric tools.
  Well, yeah; most are made in the Far East.
• ... a great torque curve,
  Absolutely. Unparalleled.
• ... good power, and should be bullet-proof reliable.
  Check.
• ... I also don't want to take on the impossible (or be the only/first to have done it).

Electric conversions are becoming more & more common. Wouldn't require any more fabrication than transplanting a BMW V8 into an e28. Probably less.

Then you said, "... Expand my mind. Give me ideas. Further inspire me." Yet you refuse to consider anything other than an ICE?!?!

I'm beginning to wonder how serious you are about this. If there's anybody on this board who could pull this off and do it well, it's you. Don't let down your fan base, Charlie.

[tig]

I appreciate everyone's perspectives (except, of course, Davintosh's electric ideas) here.

That hurts, Charlie. Really hurts.

I won't try to sell you on something you don't want -- it's your decision to make -- but you asked for options, and as I read your post, your criteria were as follows, and I think electric hits most every point:

• ... looking and being generally unique and cool.
  Check
• ... commute to work in it...
  Plug-in electrics are perfect for commuting.
• ... overall balance is important. Not too heavy. Not too light. Not too powerful. Not too squirrelly.
  Would require some creativity, but not out of the question. Battery technology has come a long way, baby.
• ... Not loud.
  Most definitely.
  
• ... Smooth torque curve.
  Absolutely. Unparalleled.
• ... I only want to use metric tools.
  Well, yeah; most are made in the Far East.
• ... a great torque curve,
  Absolutely. Unparalleled.
• ... good power, and should be bullet-proof reliable.
  Check.
• ... I also don't want to take on the impossible (or be the only/first to have done it).

Electric conversions are becoming more & more common. Wouldn't require any more fabrication than transplanting a BMW V8 into an e28. Probably less.

Then you said, "... Expand my mind. Give me ideas. Further inspire me." Yet you refuse to consider anything other than an ICE?!?!

I'm beginning to wonder how serious you are about this. If there's anybody on this board who could pull this off and do it well, it's you. Don't let down your fan base, Charlie.

You make a well articulated, clear argument. I knew if I pushed your button you would.

It *would* be interesting to figure out how to do it...especially the weight part (batteries). An 80s saloon chassis is just not conductive (pun intended) to good battery placement, me thinks.

[m-racer]

I have built (when I say that, I mean I paid people far more handy than I significant amounts of money to build) a number of transplant cars...two S14 stroker powered 2002's and an M50 powered E21 323i. My sense, in the end, is that I prefer cars that are tuned in period. Something about the goodness of a 2002 with a tuned M10 and dual webers or an E28 with a stroked M30 than just seem more rewarding to me than the transplants I have owned. Not super cars, just cars built the way I wish the factory built them. That is just me. Could be I am just getting old

[MicahO]

I've sat back and watched a lot of ideas fly here. But from the start my thought was S38B38. I'm surprised it never came up from this bunch of codgers.

Yes it's been done. So what? It is at it's root the ultimate factory expression of that M30 block. In the fatass it's like I'm driving the power of a real M30 down low, but I still get to hit the whoopee-button above 4Krpm. And I'll note that I saw 29mpg on the way down and back to Vintage. That's pretty economical!

The only reason not to is that maybe it's too easy? Or maybe the exhaust note..... As much as I get all wet listening to the S38's rev to redline, I got to drive a friend's RS4 last week. The exhaust note was terribly intoxicating. Put a V8 in the e28 and I'd drive around with a stiffie all day long. So yeah, my second choice would be the S65. Listening to those V8 M3's zing past me on the track was always pretty sweet.....

[dsmith]

Many moons ago, BMW made an electric e30, but had to make it fwd out of an ix to make room for batteries.

[Cactus]

Today is opposite day. Put an m30 in a corvette.





You want to win awards, make your own engine.

[tig]

The good news is Julie now knows I bought the damn thing and actually took it pretty well. She actually thought I said I was going to be building this E28 *for her*. She basically said NFW. I told her she mis-heard me and that I *knew* she didn't want an E28, that this was for me. Somehow this was fine with her.

I've been read'n and research'n engines and my current short list:

1) S54
2) S54
3) S54
4) S65
5) M54

This is, of course, if I had to make a decision right now. Which I don't. I figure I'm a few months from that point.

Now that my mind is sorta made up regarding the engine, it's turning to another topic: Interior.

Hence the change in the name of the thread...

If I could fix one thing about Vlad & Maytag as daily commuter it would be an upgrade in interior materials. The hodge-podge mix of leather, plastic, and vinyl. The creaks and rattles (minor in Vlad, more pronounced in the slightly more tired Maytag) and wind/road noise. Don't get me wrong, I love the '80s charm. But that doesn't mean I have to live with it in my ultimate E28 dream build.

Current constraints:

• Quality feel, quality sound, and quality colors.
• No Alcantara. I had it on my C63 and I just don't like it.
• Dark colors. No beige, tan, white, or primary blue (and Chris: No orange or yellow, so don't even suggest it).
• I've already decided on seats: E34 Sport Seats front and back (I will do what it takes to make the rears fit properly; most people who've done it have just forced them to fit).

The two ideas I've explored the most so far are:

1) The hated (but loved by me, so piss off) all-red leather. And I mean red. Not Taurusrot (which I dig and would be super-authentic on an Arktisblau car). But red. And not highlights either. ALL THE WAY. Like these:

Go to 2:36 in this video: https://youtu.be/IcOEi0cYDMI?t=156





2) A subtle (but not so subtle) cloth treatment. This direction is completely different. I'd do something around seats coverings like this:


This Tartan pattern is way cool (but I wouldn't do red highlights in this case).


The challenge I have with cloth, is it makes it harder (I think) to get away with covering everything else with leather (which I want to do).

[leadphut]

[tig]

You think that's funny but it's snot.

[leadphut]

You think that's funny but it's snot.

oh, i'm not joking. just make sure you keep the sport seats.

[geordi]

This Tartan pattern is way cool (but I wouldn't do red highlights in this case).


The challenge I have with cloth, is it makes it harder (I think) to get away with covering everything else with leather (which I want to do).

Certainly keep the conversation going on the interior, we can assist you with keeping your leather fetish in check.

[joel323]

M54 should be removed from your list and shot in the ECU

[bkbimmer]

My buddy has a Dinan supercharged s52 out of his Dinan mcoupe that he is going to sell. Made 400whp.

[vandiesel]

I do have that Dinan one lap turbo motor in my shop in Portland. 400hp mmmmmm..

[bkbimmer]

I do have that Dinan one lap turbo motor in my shop in Portland. 400hp mmmmmm..

who is this?