what does it consist of? is it totally different struts or just springs and shocks?
searched and cant find anything
cheers
sparkle
Euro Mtech suspension - what does it consist of?
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Rich in Tupelo
- Posts: 2917
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
- Location: Spring Hill, TN
Mtech springs (slightly lower than stock), Billy sports, Not sure if different sway bars. Your best info might be at www.m535i.org They have a lot of info regarding the differences in models.
Rich
Rich
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Mike in Louisville
- Posts: 535
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
The USA spec E28 M5 SLS is not considered "the performance" choice - the fixed Mtech rear suspension is generally thought to be better re: the track.
The rationale for the SLS is that it maintains the proper rear wheel camber under a variety of loads and speeds. This is to ensure the rear tires to not blow out from sustained excessive negative camber heat build up running at Vmax.
Mostly its nice because when it works, your car doesn't look like it has a droopy ass when you've got passengers or luggage
Matt
E28 M5
(working SLS)
The rationale for the SLS is that it maintains the proper rear wheel camber under a variety of loads and speeds. This is to ensure the rear tires to not blow out from sustained excessive negative camber heat build up running at Vmax.
Mostly its nice because when it works, your car doesn't look like it has a droopy ass when you've got passengers or luggage
Matt
E28 M5
(working SLS)
[QUOTE="Mike in Louisville"]The ///Ms have an SLS, a self-leveling system. What does this mean? Beats me, I have an eta. I know that the Dinan suspension will eliminate this system, but I really don't know what that means. You might try asking the guys at the M forum. [/QUOTE]
US-spec M5's had Self Leveling Suspension (SLS), which are usually replaced by the owner when worn out, or better shocks are desired. The euro-spec M5's didn't have these installed.
US-spec M5's had Self Leveling Suspension (SLS), which are usually replaced by the owner when worn out, or better shocks are desired. The euro-spec M5's didn't have these installed.
[QUOTE="bmwsparkle"]what does it consist of? is it totally different struts or just springs and shocks?
searched and cant find anything
cheers
sparkle[/QUOTE]
The M-Tecnics suspension is shorter Bilstein shocks and struts, and lowering springs of higher spring rate. I have them on my 535is, and like them alot.
searched and cant find anything
cheers
sparkle[/QUOTE]
The M-Tecnics suspension is shorter Bilstein shocks and struts, and lowering springs of higher spring rate. I have them on my 535is, and like them alot.
[QUOTE="bmwsparkle"]basically i want to find out if all aftermarket E28 suspension fits, whether it be mtech or not in the first place[/QUOTE]
There's no way to really answer that accurately except to say that many have used H&R, Eilbach, Dinan, and assorted other aftermarket springs with varying levels of success. It's my belief that the BMW springs are very high quality, some of the others are not. I've heard numerous stories about spring sag with some brands, and excessive lowering with others.
You will need to buy shorter shocks and struts to use lowering springs, most go to Bilstein Sport shocks.
There's no way to really answer that accurately except to say that many have used H&R, Eilbach, Dinan, and assorted other aftermarket springs with varying levels of success. It's my belief that the BMW springs are very high quality, some of the others are not. I've heard numerous stories about spring sag with some brands, and excessive lowering with others.
You will need to buy shorter shocks and struts to use lowering springs, most go to Bilstein Sport shocks.
You could approximate a spring rate with a shop press and a high capacity scale.
I.e. put the spring on the scale, put the scale + spring assembly in the press. Measure the springs length and its resting weight. Now slowly press the spring until its new length is 1-2 inches shorter. Measure the new weight, subtract the rest weight, divide by number of inches you compressed. This is the approximate spring weight in lbs/in. It is approximate because the spring is not massless, and the spring is already partially compressed in its "rest" state.
I do not have a good scale to do this on, so i can't, unfortuneately.
Also note that what i described doing is dangerous if you dont have ways to secure all this crap safely.
If you have progressive rate springs, you should plot the distance and weight at lots of points, say at 1/4" intervals. That would be cool
I.e. put the spring on the scale, put the scale + spring assembly in the press. Measure the springs length and its resting weight. Now slowly press the spring until its new length is 1-2 inches shorter. Measure the new weight, subtract the rest weight, divide by number of inches you compressed. This is the approximate spring weight in lbs/in. It is approximate because the spring is not massless, and the spring is already partially compressed in its "rest" state.
I do not have a good scale to do this on, so i can't, unfortuneately.
Also note that what i described doing is dangerous if you dont have ways to secure all this crap safely.
If you have progressive rate springs, you should plot the distance and weight at lots of points, say at 1/4" intervals. That would be cool
[QUOTE="bmwsparkle"]i know that, infact all i may do is bilstein HDs, but if i do do springs wil be probably H&R or similar, i just wanted to know if the mtech strut or spring seat was different in case the aftermarket spring or shock was made for non m-tech only[/QUOTE]
Bilstein Sports are made for a shorter, higher rate springs than the stock ones on a 535i. If they're not right, Bilstein will revalve them for you.
Bilstein Sports are made for a shorter, higher rate springs than the stock ones on a 535i. If they're not right, Bilstein will revalve them for you.
[QUOTE="bmwsparkle"]i just wanted to know if the mtech strut or spring seat was different in case the aftermarket spring or shock was made for non m-tech only[/QUOTE]
All struts and all springs designed for the E28 will mate physically, with the exception of coil-over setups (which I assume you are NOT talking about here). For example, M-Tech will fit onto stock shocks, and stock shocks will fit onto Bilsteins, Bav Auto springs will fit onto Konis, and so on. Whether the combination is functionally desireable is a different matter.
It is not necessarily true that if you use shorter springs that you must use shorter struts. I have Dinan springs and am using Boge Turbo Gas struts -- the Dinan springs are 3/4"-1" shorter and the TGs are considered "replacement" struts (they are not shorter). I happened to already have the TGs on when I got the Dinan springs, and Steve Dinan himself said that is the strut his springs were designed for.
All struts and all springs designed for the E28 will mate physically, with the exception of coil-over setups (which I assume you are NOT talking about here). For example, M-Tech will fit onto stock shocks, and stock shocks will fit onto Bilsteins, Bav Auto springs will fit onto Konis, and so on. Whether the combination is functionally desireable is a different matter.
It is not necessarily true that if you use shorter springs that you must use shorter struts. I have Dinan springs and am using Boge Turbo Gas struts -- the Dinan springs are 3/4"-1" shorter and the TGs are considered "replacement" struts (they are not shorter). I happened to already have the TGs on when I got the Dinan springs, and Steve Dinan himself said that is the strut his springs were designed for.
[QUOTE="bmwsparkle"]i just wanted to know if the mtech strut or spring seat was different in case the aftermarket spring or shock was made for non m-tech only[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="Shawn D."]All struts and all springs designed for the E28 will mate physically, with the exception of coil-over setups (which I assume you are NOT talking about here). For example, M-Tech will fit onto stock shocks, and stock shocks will fit onto Bilsteins, Bav Auto springs will fit onto Konis, and so on. Whether the combination is functionally desireable is a different matter.
It is not necessarily true that if you use shorter springs that you must use shorter struts. I have Dinan springs and am using Boge Turbo Gas struts -- the Dinan springs are 3/4"-1" shorter and the TGs are considered "replacement" struts (they are not shorter). I happened to already have the TGs on when I got the Dinan springs, and Steve Dinan himself said that is the strut his springs were designed for.[/QUOTE]
I don't know about the construction of Boge TG's:? , but Bilsteins have an internal bump stop, and if you have lowering springs you have a good chance that the internal stop will collide with the piston (and the valving in the piston). I'm not sure how much lowering has to take place before shorter shocks/struts are needed, only that BMW used shorter shocks/struts with their M-Tech springs.
As far as I know, BMW hasn't or won't, or both, revealed their engineering data on this issue.
[QUOTE="Shawn D."]All struts and all springs designed for the E28 will mate physically, with the exception of coil-over setups (which I assume you are NOT talking about here). For example, M-Tech will fit onto stock shocks, and stock shocks will fit onto Bilsteins, Bav Auto springs will fit onto Konis, and so on. Whether the combination is functionally desireable is a different matter.
It is not necessarily true that if you use shorter springs that you must use shorter struts. I have Dinan springs and am using Boge Turbo Gas struts -- the Dinan springs are 3/4"-1" shorter and the TGs are considered "replacement" struts (they are not shorter). I happened to already have the TGs on when I got the Dinan springs, and Steve Dinan himself said that is the strut his springs were designed for.[/QUOTE]
I don't know about the construction of Boge TG's:? , but Bilsteins have an internal bump stop, and if you have lowering springs you have a good chance that the internal stop will collide with the piston (and the valving in the piston). I'm not sure how much lowering has to take place before shorter shocks/struts are needed, only that BMW used shorter shocks/struts with their M-Tech springs.
As far as I know, BMW hasn't or won't, or both, revealed their engineering data on this issue.[QUOTE="fastpat"]Bilstein Sports are made for a shorter, higher rate springs than the stock ones on a 535i. If they're not right, Bilstein will revalve them for you.[/QUOTE]
i have mtech springs and bilsteins standard. factory option.
cheers shawn, that was wat i was getting at, that if they are all compatible, so obvioulsly the mtech setup is just shocks and springs
tell me if im wrong
cheers guys
sparkle
i have mtech springs and bilsteins standard. factory option.
cheers shawn, that was wat i was getting at, that if they are all compatible, so obvioulsly the mtech setup is just shocks and springs
tell me if im wrong
cheers guys
sparkle
[QUOTE="fastpat"]Bilstein Sports are made for a shorter, higher rate springs than the stock ones on a 535i. If they're not right, Bilstein will revalve them for you.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="bmwsparkle"]i have mtech springs and bilsteins standard. factory option.
cheers shawn, that was wat i was getting at, that if they are all compatible, so obvioulsly the mtech setup is just shocks and springs
tell me if im wrong
cheers guys
sparkle[/QUOTE]
Well, there's the anti-roll bar size; and then there's the thick and the thin subber spring pads.
[QUOTE="bmwsparkle"]i have mtech springs and bilsteins standard. factory option.
cheers shawn, that was wat i was getting at, that if they are all compatible, so obvioulsly the mtech setup is just shocks and springs
tell me if im wrong
cheers guys
sparkle[/QUOTE]
Well, there's the anti-roll bar size; and then there's the thick and the thin subber spring pads.
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Tammer in Philly
- Posts: 10719
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
- Location: CHI, IL
[QUOTE="Shawn D."]All struts and all springs designed for the E28 will mate physically, with the exception of coil-over setups (which I assume you are NOT talking about here). For example, M-Tech will fit onto stock shocks, and stock shocks will fit onto Bilsteins, Bav Auto springs will fit onto Konis, and so on. Whether the combination is functionally desireable is a different matter.[/QUOTE]
Shawn et. al., one important note: Different shocks require different collar nuts. The standard Bilsteins on the sport iS have a larger diameter strut insert than the base suspension, and Koni match the base suspension. So if you have a factory sport suspension and wish to install Koni, you need the smaller ID strut collar.
*I may have smaller and larger backwards here; perhaps the Koni are wide and the Bilstein narrower. Been awhile. Either way, be sure you have the proper one - Bilstein uses sport suspension collar; Koni uses stock suspension collar. That little guy cost me 2 weeks 'cause they had to come from Germany!
-tammer
Shawn et. al., one important note: Different shocks require different collar nuts. The standard Bilsteins on the sport iS have a larger diameter strut insert than the base suspension, and Koni match the base suspension. So if you have a factory sport suspension and wish to install Koni, you need the smaller ID strut collar.
*I may have smaller and larger backwards here; perhaps the Koni are wide and the Bilstein narrower. Been awhile. Either way, be sure you have the proper one - Bilstein uses sport suspension collar; Koni uses stock suspension collar. That little guy cost me 2 weeks 'cause they had to come from Germany!
-tammer
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Aaron from Aus
- Posts: 559
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Well from my experience,
A small lowering amount up to about 20mm will be fine with stock shocks.
Any lower ie: 25mm to 40 - 45mm you will be riding on your bump stops.
Bilstein are the only ones that make a off the shelf lowered shock that will suit the lower springs, (thy are called Sprint Line or the in-shop tewm is B8 Spec)
you can have the Bilsteins rebuilt to these specs...and Konis can be rebuilt to sports spec and lowered to trap the spring (consists of putting in an internal spacer) ..but Koni do not make off the shelf rear lowered sports shocks for E28..only for the front of the car.
IMHO, i beleive the Bilsteins in the M5 (i have the same set) are just heavy duty, with a progressive spring that is slightly lowered..10mm) I used Eibach pro-kit with these shocks and they sat on the bump stops.
As for Sway bar sizes on M5...Front is 25mm and rear is 18mm from memory.
(stock is 19mm front and 15.5mm rear....sports like in 535i is 22mm front and 15.5mm rear)
and 16" BBS wheels with Pirelle tyres.
as for self leveling i wouldnt have a clue.
A small lowering amount up to about 20mm will be fine with stock shocks.
Any lower ie: 25mm to 40 - 45mm you will be riding on your bump stops.
Bilstein are the only ones that make a off the shelf lowered shock that will suit the lower springs, (thy are called Sprint Line or the in-shop tewm is B8 Spec)
you can have the Bilsteins rebuilt to these specs...and Konis can be rebuilt to sports spec and lowered to trap the spring (consists of putting in an internal spacer) ..but Koni do not make off the shelf rear lowered sports shocks for E28..only for the front of the car.
IMHO, i beleive the Bilsteins in the M5 (i have the same set) are just heavy duty, with a progressive spring that is slightly lowered..10mm) I used Eibach pro-kit with these shocks and they sat on the bump stops.
As for Sway bar sizes on M5...Front is 25mm and rear is 18mm from memory.
(stock is 19mm front and 15.5mm rear....sports like in 535i is 22mm front and 15.5mm rear)
and 16" BBS wheels with Pirelle tyres.
as for self leveling i wouldnt have a clue.
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Guest
My Euro M5 has the original factory suspension in it. The front springs are specific to the Euro M5 as are the front strut inserts. The rear springs are Euro specific but are not soley an ///M specific part, the rear shocks are standard BMW Bilstein HDs. My Euro M5 has21 mm front sways and 14 mm rear sways. The 14mm rear sways are spec'd for the M5 with Sport Suspension.
US/NA M5s utilize Boge Gas strut inserts with the same front springs as the 535i. The rear shocks are the Boge SLS system with springs that are specific to the SLS system. Sways are 25mm front and 18 mm rear.
Rich
US/NA M5s utilize Boge Gas strut inserts with the same front springs as the 535i. The rear shocks are the Boge SLS system with springs that are specific to the SLS system. Sways are 25mm front and 18 mm rear.
Rich
The anti-roll bar size for the euro-spec M5 is interesting because it demonstrates the conservative approach BMW took with the car. Not too stiff on the springs, not to much bar, and not too much shock The front spoiler is also much more conservative than what the US-spec car received, though that was partially done to blend in with the baby-buggy bumpers.
Good info, Rich. :p
Good info, Rich. :p
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Guest
Pat,
The only other spolier option for the Euro M5 was the M-Tech Kit. The little Euro ///M5 spoiler is actually quite effective. It has an additional section not installed on the US/NA M5, the engine underscreen. The little Euro spoiler also has functional brake ducts to aid front brake cooling.
I believe the later Euro M5s have a completely different spring/shock combo than the earlier cars like mine. IIRC, 10/86 is where Boge Gas Inserts are used and an ///M specific rear spring with Boge Gas shocks (unless you ordered the SLS). The stab bars then became 25mm front and 18 mm rear just like the US/NA M5.
Rich
The only other spolier option for the Euro M5 was the M-Tech Kit. The little Euro ///M5 spoiler is actually quite effective. It has an additional section not installed on the US/NA M5, the engine underscreen. The little Euro spoiler also has functional brake ducts to aid front brake cooling.
I believe the later Euro M5s have a completely different spring/shock combo than the earlier cars like mine. IIRC, 10/86 is where Boge Gas Inserts are used and an ///M specific rear spring with Boge Gas shocks (unless you ordered the SLS). The stab bars then became 25mm front and 18 mm rear just like the US/NA M5.
Rich
Rich,
I was fortunate enough to buy one from TC when he was doing the e28 parts selling from Germany.
Here's the one going on my "is".
And, here's what it should look like when painted, note I do have the oil cooler to go behind the cooler vents.
The spoiler in this photo hasn't opened the vents, like on JayBort's 528i.
Should work pretty well.
I was fortunate enough to buy one from TC when he was doing the e28 parts selling from Germany.
Here's the one going on my "is".
And, here's what it should look like when painted, note I do have the oil cooler to go behind the cooler vents.
The spoiler in this photo hasn't opened the vents, like on JayBort's 528i.Should work pretty well.
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Blue Shadow
- Posts: 10286
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- Location: SE PA