heh heh, or at least it feels that way. Finally got all the issues in my car sorted out (for now), and also installed some new rear shocks and tires this past weekend. The new rear shocks are courtesy of Mr. Catfish and they are revalved Bilstein Sports, with the compression increased from 80 to 100, and rebound increased from 160 to 225. These shocks have transformed the ride from "firm, but comfortable" to "pretty f*cking stiff", but for those who dont care too much about ride quality, I can highly recommend these!
I also threw on my new tires, which are 235/45/17 Yoko Advan A046s up front (<--stock tires on new Lancer Evos) and 255/40/17 Yoko AVS Sports in back. The Advans are easily the most responsive & stickiest tires I have driven on; no wonder the Evos handle so damn well in all the road tests! But they aren't cheap unless you find a used set ($220 each on Tirerack) and they really sacrifice themselves to keep you on the road. I'll be lucky to get much more than 5k out of these tires. The AVS sports out back are also sticky, but not TOO sticky, and relatively progressive on breakaway.
I was able to test out the new setup last night while hauling ass up Hwy 1 from Santa Barbara to Monterey from 1-4:30 am. Understeer is essentially nonexistant now, while oversteer is easily attainable & controllable, though never a surprise. And no more of that "floaty" feeling on the highway.
I have the best handling e28 in the world!!!
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Blue Shadow
- Posts: 10286
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
- Location: SE PA
Perhaps it should as that is definitely a MAJOR part of it, but there is also a slight technical aspect. By simply running stiffer rear shocks combined with a common aftermarket suspension setup (H&R/Bilstein) and good tires, I really think an e28 can hang through the corners with well-setup newer vehicles (ie e36 m3). And I am still running the sway bars on the loosest setting...
what springs and sway bars do you use? do you run a strut brace too?
Here's what I've done to my suspension:
-H&R springs
-Bilstein Sports (w/the revalved rear shocks)
-Racing Dynamics adjustable 22mm/16mm sway bars
-Ireland Engineering front strut brace, which I believe TCD now sells
-KMac rear camber kit
-BavSpec strut-to-steering arm spacers
-Paul Grey urethane thrust arm bushings (too soft)
You are just teeing that one up for me.
Haha, I kinda expected to hear from you on this one.
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Blue Shadow
- Posts: 10286
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
- Location: SE PA
Ed, can either you or somebody else tell me how the E28 in its maximum potential suspension--handling --wise match up against some other rides i.e. BMW's and others w/ relative same size...
GIven the rule that newer is always better, can the E28 at least put a bit of a scare into some newer cars. That is why I bought her, to be stealthy and low key yet be able to hopefully whoop the heck out of car's with electronic gizmos every now & then.
I have had mine for less than a month--sold my E34 and now am loving the E28 b/c of it's simplicity and old skool feel. I want to know her limits, limitations and strengths on a track or on backroads.
thanks
[Edit by Mo on [TIME]1107941578[/TIME]]
GIven the rule that newer is always better, can the E28 at least put a bit of a scare into some newer cars. That is why I bought her, to be stealthy and low key yet be able to hopefully whoop the heck out of car's with electronic gizmos every now & then.
I have had mine for less than a month--sold my E34 and now am loving the E28 b/c of it's simplicity and old skool feel. I want to know her limits, limitations and strengths on a track or on backroads.
thanks
[Edit by Mo on [TIME]1107941578[/TIME]]
[QUOTE="Raj"]What kind of maintenance will those spherical bearings entail? Will they have to be greased on a consistent basis? And Ed, how did your e46 touring perform on the track compared to the e28?[/QUOTE]
The spherical bearings will require INCREASED maintenance in the form of more frequent inspection and replacement. Grease is a big no-no because it just attracts dirt which grinds away the teflon liner. As the teflon liners wear, the bearing will develop clearances that allow the inner piece to rattle around. Some sort of dust booting will help delay wear but I won't have any idea about lifespan until I start beating the crap out of a set. FWIW, a buddy runs exposed teflon sperical bearing rod ends as tie rod ends on his '93 Mustang (street can and 12 track days + autocrosses/year) to help correct a variety of issues (akerman, bump steer) and has to replace them about every two years. The sperical bearings area press fit into the adapter and also have a retaining ring for security.
I would also want to take a good look at the chassis mouting points to see if any cracks develop. I imagine that spherical bearings would transmit significantly more shock to the car. Welded in sheetmetal reinforcements would probably be justified on a tracked car.
The E46 is an amazing car on track. It handles extremely well and is very easy to drive. Hell, my E30 track/winter beater is a joy to drive and would be a significantly better handling car than the E28 if it were on coil overs and camber plates.. This does not mean that I won't have fun again driving an E28. I accept the fact that there will always be a faster/better handling/higher HP car on track.
Ed
The spherical bearings will require INCREASED maintenance in the form of more frequent inspection and replacement. Grease is a big no-no because it just attracts dirt which grinds away the teflon liner. As the teflon liners wear, the bearing will develop clearances that allow the inner piece to rattle around. Some sort of dust booting will help delay wear but I won't have any idea about lifespan until I start beating the crap out of a set. FWIW, a buddy runs exposed teflon sperical bearing rod ends as tie rod ends on his '93 Mustang (street can and 12 track days + autocrosses/year) to help correct a variety of issues (akerman, bump steer) and has to replace them about every two years. The sperical bearings area press fit into the adapter and also have a retaining ring for security.
I would also want to take a good look at the chassis mouting points to see if any cracks develop. I imagine that spherical bearings would transmit significantly more shock to the car. Welded in sheetmetal reinforcements would probably be justified on a tracked car.
The E46 is an amazing car on track. It handles extremely well and is very easy to drive. Hell, my E30 track/winter beater is a joy to drive and would be a significantly better handling car than the E28 if it were on coil overs and camber plates.. This does not mean that I won't have fun again driving an E28. I accept the fact that there will always be a faster/better handling/higher HP car on track.
Ed
[QUOTE="Mo[/I]Ed, can either you or somebody else tell me how the E28 in its maximum potential suspension--handling --wise match up against some other rides i.e. BMW's and others w/ relative same size...[/QUOTE]
The last time someone put a stopwatch to me at Lime Rock Park, I was told that my times would be at or near the bottom of the pack in K Prepared (about 5 seconds off the fastest KP guys). This was when the E30 325is was very popular in K Stock and K Prepared. Considering I was running undersized tires (225/50/16 Kumhos instead of a 255/40/17 Hoosiers), 250+lbs over my K prepared weight, a tired M30 with a stock cam, and alignment specs more appropriate for a street car than a club racer, I think my E28 was doing well. If properly prepared, an E28 would still do well against a similarly prepared E30 325i. The later cars just have too much to offer in the form of sophisticated multilink rear suspensions and increased chassis rigidity and will outrun the 80s and earlier cars.
The last time someone put a stopwatch to me at Lime Rock Park, I was told that my times would be at or near the bottom of the pack in K Prepared (about 5 seconds off the fastest KP guys). This was when the E30 325is was very popular in K Stock and K Prepared. Considering I was running undersized tires (225/50/16 Kumhos instead of a 255/40/17 Hoosiers), 250+lbs over my K prepared weight, a tired M30 with a stock cam, and alignment specs more appropriate for a street car than a club racer, I think my E28 was doing well. If properly prepared, an E28 would still do well against a similarly prepared E30 325i. The later cars just have too much to offer in the form of sophisticated multilink rear suspensions and increased chassis rigidity and will outrun the 80s and earlier cars.
Thanks Ed! That is what I was thinking the same, too much technology to overcome. Still, it is remarkable they can still compete at some level. My E28 in stock form feels more balanced and quicker than my E34 ever did. It is funner to drive too. I thought that might get it done on a track but I guess not because there are even better cars than an E34.
Still, do you feel like you are completely overmatched all the time or do you feel more like you might bite some guys in the behind if they dont watch out? Track or street.
Although I have not raced mine, it just seems so much quicker than my old E34.
Still, do you feel like you are completely overmatched all the time or do you feel more like you might bite some guys in the behind if they dont watch out? Track or street.
Although I have not raced mine, it just seems so much quicker than my old E34.
[QUOTE="Mo[/I]Still, do you feel like you are completely overmatched all the time or do you feel more like you might bite some guys in the behind if they dont watch out?[/QUOTE]
An E28 is definitely capable of surprising "faster" cars. I just wish those damn E36 M3 drivers would lift on the front straight after giving a passing signal.
Ed
An E28 is definitely capable of surprising "faster" cars. I just wish those damn E36 M3 drivers would lift on the front straight after giving a passing signal.
Ed
Ed has a valid point.
1. The front suspension kinematics of an E28 and E30, stock, are better than those of E36s or E46s. The reason is that the later cars reduced their castor angle significantly. The E36 M3 tried to remedy this by using various upper strut mounts to increase castor (and then caster and camber). Unfortunately, if you look at the alignment specs, you'll see that even with the increased castor, the castor angle curve through the steering angle changes significantly. It's actually non-linear, whereas the E30 and E28 is much more linear, and keeps it's caster angle higher for a greater amount of steering angle.
1A. This front kinematic fact shows that the front suspenion of an E28 or E30 starts out better than an E36 or E46, kinematically speaking w.r.t. to caster and camber angle. However, we now get to the issue of kingpin angle and scrub radius. The E28, in order to reduce kingpin angle angle and scrub radius, went towards a "double-pivot" design. It's great in theory. Unfortunately the kinematics of it are such that the upper and lower control arm bushings have a rotational deflection about their radial axis. A bushing won't last very long when it's twisted that way (as opposed to having only linear deflection in the radial direction, and rotational movement about it's axial direction). So, the moment we can stiffen and lengthen the life of these bushings (and spherical bearings is an option for these bushings for pure track use), it's a step in the right direction. But the moment you do this, as Ed says, you'll have to investigate the strength of the mounting points, as you're transmitting a lot more shock and dynamic loading than with a bushing.
1B. The E30, E36, and E46 all use very similar designs for the lower control arm. They compromise the scrub radius for a simpler design, with less bushing deflection. It is easier to stiffen the compliance of an E30, E36, or E46 suspension than E28 by using stiffer control arm bushings, or again even going towards spherical bearings there too.
1C. Weight. E30s are small and light. E36s, E46s, and E28s are all on par. It's easier to deal with component life and reliability on an E30 simply due to its inherint lighter weight.
1D. Stiffness. An E36 has great rigidity compared to the E28, but it's not that much better than the E30. The reason is due to the size (and thus, the size of the holes - doors, windows - of an E36 vs. E30). But remember, there are many good methods to stiffen either chassis. The E46 starts out even better, w.r.t chassis stiffness. One would have to analyze the stiffness/weight ratio, and compare all the chassis, and their different strengthening/stiffening methods and subsequent weights.
2. Rear suspension. The "multi-link" of the E36 and E46 is great compared to the E30 and E28 trailing arm style. The E30 and E28 are great for camber gain, an inherint "design flaw" of the trailing arm suspension, but you also get a great amount of toe-change. It's this rear toe change that is undesireable, and a problem when you get to fine tuning handling. The E36 and E46, by comparison, is really good with toe-control through the suspension travel, but do not have as good camber gains by comparison. The benefit of minimal toe change here outweighs the cost of less camber gain. But there are people out there that make great parts to improve this issue on the E36s and E46s; Turner for example has tons of products for this.
2A. E36 and E46 rear suspension weakness. One MUST reinforce the floor, AND increase the stiffness of the multitude of rear suspension bushings. It's a lot of work to do, but the benefits are great.
2B. An E30 or E28 is easier to deal with. There is no inherint floor weakness, and fewer bushings to deal with. It is also easier to improve the load paths and stiffen the chassis on an E30 and E28 at the rear suspension pick-up points.
There are good and bad things for both E30/E28 and E36/E46. But in the end, it comes to the fact that the newer cars start out at a higher level, and need much greater cost input to improve them. The older cars start out at a lower performance level than the newer cars, but are arguable easier and cheaper to improve to bring to or above the competitive level of a mildly improved newer car.
-Chris
If properly prepared, an E28 would still do well against a similarly prepared E30 325i. The later cars just have too much to offer in the form of sophisticated multilink rear suspensions and increased chassis rigidity and will outrun the 80s and earlier cars.
1. The front suspension kinematics of an E28 and E30, stock, are better than those of E36s or E46s. The reason is that the later cars reduced their castor angle significantly. The E36 M3 tried to remedy this by using various upper strut mounts to increase castor (and then caster and camber). Unfortunately, if you look at the alignment specs, you'll see that even with the increased castor, the castor angle curve through the steering angle changes significantly. It's actually non-linear, whereas the E30 and E28 is much more linear, and keeps it's caster angle higher for a greater amount of steering angle.
1A. This front kinematic fact shows that the front suspenion of an E28 or E30 starts out better than an E36 or E46, kinematically speaking w.r.t. to caster and camber angle. However, we now get to the issue of kingpin angle and scrub radius. The E28, in order to reduce kingpin angle angle and scrub radius, went towards a "double-pivot" design. It's great in theory. Unfortunately the kinematics of it are such that the upper and lower control arm bushings have a rotational deflection about their radial axis. A bushing won't last very long when it's twisted that way (as opposed to having only linear deflection in the radial direction, and rotational movement about it's axial direction). So, the moment we can stiffen and lengthen the life of these bushings (and spherical bearings is an option for these bushings for pure track use), it's a step in the right direction. But the moment you do this, as Ed says, you'll have to investigate the strength of the mounting points, as you're transmitting a lot more shock and dynamic loading than with a bushing.
1B. The E30, E36, and E46 all use very similar designs for the lower control arm. They compromise the scrub radius for a simpler design, with less bushing deflection. It is easier to stiffen the compliance of an E30, E36, or E46 suspension than E28 by using stiffer control arm bushings, or again even going towards spherical bearings there too.
1C. Weight. E30s are small and light. E36s, E46s, and E28s are all on par. It's easier to deal with component life and reliability on an E30 simply due to its inherint lighter weight.
1D. Stiffness. An E36 has great rigidity compared to the E28, but it's not that much better than the E30. The reason is due to the size (and thus, the size of the holes - doors, windows - of an E36 vs. E30). But remember, there are many good methods to stiffen either chassis. The E46 starts out even better, w.r.t chassis stiffness. One would have to analyze the stiffness/weight ratio, and compare all the chassis, and their different strengthening/stiffening methods and subsequent weights.
2. Rear suspension. The "multi-link" of the E36 and E46 is great compared to the E30 and E28 trailing arm style. The E30 and E28 are great for camber gain, an inherint "design flaw" of the trailing arm suspension, but you also get a great amount of toe-change. It's this rear toe change that is undesireable, and a problem when you get to fine tuning handling. The E36 and E46, by comparison, is really good with toe-control through the suspension travel, but do not have as good camber gains by comparison. The benefit of minimal toe change here outweighs the cost of less camber gain. But there are people out there that make great parts to improve this issue on the E36s and E46s; Turner for example has tons of products for this.
2A. E36 and E46 rear suspension weakness. One MUST reinforce the floor, AND increase the stiffness of the multitude of rear suspension bushings. It's a lot of work to do, but the benefits are great.
2B. An E30 or E28 is easier to deal with. There is no inherint floor weakness, and fewer bushings to deal with. It is also easier to improve the load paths and stiffen the chassis on an E30 and E28 at the rear suspension pick-up points.
There are good and bad things for both E30/E28 and E36/E46. But in the end, it comes to the fact that the newer cars start out at a higher level, and need much greater cost input to improve them. The older cars start out at a lower performance level than the newer cars, but are arguable easier and cheaper to improve to bring to or above the competitive level of a mildly improved newer car.
-Chris
I had the pleasure of driving a 98 M3 around for 2 months. The car was bone stock witk Pilot Sports and the handling of the thing is just mind-blowing. Steering precision, feedback, chassis balance and just a feeling of complete control over what both ends of the car were doing, it was just amazing! Not to mention the sheer lateral grip before slipage. Honestly, having driven in some very nicely modifed E28s, I dont think there is any hope at all this side of a complete un-steetable race suspension.
Ironically, I think the E28 is far more entertaining to drive. It is just less refined and more engaging and the over-steer always keeps things interesting. Newer ones just feel too refined.
Ironically, I think the E28 is far more entertaining to drive. It is just less refined and more engaging and the over-steer always keeps things interesting. Newer ones just feel too refined.
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Guest
My Bride's daily driver is an E46 325Ci 5sp with the Sport Package. It's a great handling car that can be driven stupid fast. The downside is the intrusiveness of the DSC and the traction control. I also find that the E46 is somewhat muted in the feedback you receive, especially with the DSC enabled. I have yet to really find the limits when DSC is on. When you turn the DSC off things can get interesting, especially on wet/slippery roads. The weight distribution of the E46 coupe is almost ideal and will easily loop with DSC turned off in slippery road conditions. Even though the E46 is much easier to drive fast in the twisties, it just doesn't have the same progressive feel as the limits are approached.
You'll beat most new BMW owners on the track anyway. The typical owner of new BMWs isn't an enthusiest, but are instead seeking the status of driving a BMW.
Rich
You'll beat most new BMW owners on the track anyway. The typical owner of new BMWs isn't an enthusiest, but are instead seeking the status of driving a BMW.
Rich
That is awesome Raj! I was really considering those shocks when he posted them for sale. Especially since my e28 is no longer my commuter car. My current set up is just not stiff enough and still feels a little loose. It is definitely time to replace all my bushings, like dog bones and front end bushings. Hopefully this will help things out.
These cars really do handle well with the right equipment and right driver. On various occasions I've been able to leave M3s on the backcountry roads, mainly because of the drivers abilities (not being cocky) they just don't want to or can't push the cars as hard. Raj can attest that when we went on an e28 drive and he, Mike C. and myself were really able to toss our cars around the corners, like we were some ballerina dancers in the nut cracker!!! Remember RAJ!!!
These cars really do handle well with the right equipment and right driver. On various occasions I've been able to leave M3s on the backcountry roads, mainly because of the drivers abilities (not being cocky) they just don't want to or can't push the cars as hard. Raj can attest that when we went on an e28 drive and he, Mike C. and myself were really able to toss our cars around the corners, like we were some ballerina dancers in the nut cracker!!! Remember RAJ!!!
An E28 is definitely capable of surprising "faster" cars. I just wish those damn E36 M3 drivers would lift on the front straight after giving a passing signal.
LOL, amen.
toss our cars around the corners, like we were some ballerina dancers in the nut cracker!!! Remember RAJ!!!
Of course I remember! And the CHP was waiting for us at the end of our run, hiding behind the fence because we flew by the pissed-off lady on the phone. Not so sure about the "ballerina" analogy though...lol.
There are good and bad things for both E30/E28 and E36/E46. But in the end, it comes to the fact that the newer cars start out at a higher level, and need much greater cost input to improve them. The older cars start out at a lower performance level than the newer cars, but are arguable easier and cheaper to improve to bring to or above the competitive level of a mildly improved newer car.
Couldn't have said it better...
[QUOTE="Raj"]
LOL, amen.
Of course I remember! And the CHP was waiting for us at the end of our run, hiding behind the fence because we flew by the pissed-off lady on the phone. Not so sure about the "ballerina" analogy though...lol.[/QUOTE]
You know you wear a pink TUTU around the house.....
Seriously I need to go for a ride in your car. It really is time to improve the handling in my car. I need brakes too! ~_~
LOL, amen.
Of course I remember! And the CHP was waiting for us at the end of our run, hiding behind the fence because we flew by the pissed-off lady on the phone. Not so sure about the "ballerina" analogy though...lol.[/QUOTE]
You know you wear a pink TUTU around the house.....
Seriously I need to go for a ride in your car. It really is time to improve the handling in my car. I need brakes too! ~_~
That is some funny shiat!!!
Ballerinas through the twisties
LOL!
Ok, I think I am starting to "get it". This car is about heart and enthusiasm--combined w/ skilled drivers which newer robotic cars can't match.
I can't wait to get my E28 handling like all of your cars. I live near a busy country road that connects to the wealthy suburbs, I would love to dust a 2005 like a Ballerina through the forest. :p
Ballerinas through the twisties
LOL!Ok, I think I am starting to "get it". This car is about heart and enthusiasm--combined w/ skilled drivers which newer robotic cars can't match.
I can't wait to get my E28 handling like all of your cars. I live near a busy country road that connects to the wealthy suburbs, I would love to dust a 2005 like a Ballerina through the forest. :p