Breaking Bad Habits

[davintosh]

On Saturday I was running a couple of errands (in the 735i) with two of my sons along for the ride. At one of the stops, the 16 year old asks if he can drive; it's been a while since I've been in the car with him driving, so I gave him the keys. Pulling out of the parking lot I nearly came unglued. He started off by nearly dumping the clutch to back out of the parking spot and again to get going, then proceeded to drive out of the parking lot in first gear with it revved to about 4500 RPM. I almost smacked him over that & told him to upshift. After that it was all shoving the shifter from gear to gear instead of letting it slide gently; stomping his foot down on the clutch & letting it back up just as quickly, with the expected thump or bang from the drivetrain when he released the clutch; waiting to shift until it's revved to about 5k... basically acting like he was speed shifting in a street race. I could feel my blood pressure rise as I suppressed the urge to slap him upside the head!

I tried to cut him a little slack -- he's only 16 and has been driving for less than a year -- but dang it, that's not how I taught him to drive a stick, and that's not how he was driving the last time I was riding shotgun with him in the driver's seat.

Most of the time he and my daughter share a '95 Civic DX Coupe with a 5 speed; the clutch & shifter in that car have a much different feel than the seven, but not so different as to account for his driving like that. He does spend a bit of time playing racing games on the X-Box; not sure if that's where he gets the idea his shifts need to be that fast & abrupt or what... I just know it needs to stop.

I tried coaching him a little bit as we were on our way to the next stop that evening, but it was making me angrier the longer it went on, and the coaching probably came across more as nagging, so I drove after our next stop. After I had calmed down a bit I demonstrated for him the proper way to handle the shifter & clutch, trying to get him to see the difference. And then yesterday we went out for another drive, and it was obvious my demonstration didn't do much good, because he was right back to his street racer speed shifting business again. This time I was a bit more patient and explained to him the way he should be doing it and encouraging him when he did it right (that's what the wife says I should do; encourage the good behavior and not blow up over the bad) but I still wanted a shock collar on him to let him know when he screwed up. By the end of our drive, he had improved a bit, but his clutch foot was still going down and coming up much too quickly, even for 'spirited driving'...

Anyway, any driving coaches out there have some good tips for helping him -- and me -- survive our next coaching session?

[nnarth212]

Tell him real men can drive a standard so that the passenger can't tell it's not an auto.... but that may just aggravate him further.

It's hard to convince the beginners that clutch dumping is never necessary. The 'feel' takes time-- the one piece of advice I always repeat is to take it slow and develop the feel-- let the pedal out until the car begins to move, then gently touch the gas, not pushing on the gas until the clutch is completely released.

also, once the car is rolling at nearly any speed, one should not be in first gear.

Really, I was competent on a standard in a matter of hours. However, it took a few years to learn how to be completely smooth with no thought. Starting on a hill without dumping it-- that's good practice I get all day.

[John in VA]

Sign them up for Street Survival or your local club's car control clinic. The student gets driving theory in the classroom, and a chance to spend the other part of the day with an instructor in the car with them. Very reasonably priced for that type of instruction and experience.
http://www.streetsurvival.org/

[doug]

I taught one of my kids how to use the clutch by starting out in a closed garage. Lots of incentive not to drop the clutch. A bit risky, though. It might have been smarter to choose some other confined space.

[cvillebimmer]

Don't let him drive the BMW and let him destroy the Civic. Once it's dead, he has to pay for the repair or buy his own car Or take the bus. He'll respect the car a lot more if he's paying the bills.

I always drove very kindly with my parents in the car and I frankly think it's pretty ballsy (sp?) to drive like that with you in the car. I'd be willing to bet he can drive the car properly and that he's doing it because he know it pisses you off.

[ldsbeaker]

This one's easy.
1) no driving your car.
2) He pays for AND replaces the next clutch in the Honda. (shouldn't take long)

[a]

I taught, Marina, learned in spite of me, to drive. She was raised on Air Force bases and barely rode in a car. The car was a VW Bug , some old junker that I had resurected. It was nerve wracking for both of us. 37 yrs later, Marina has a better driving record than I do. She misses the manual shift she told me one day. That is why I keep the 82 528e I told her.

[option00002]

Sign them up for Street Survival or your local club's car control clinic. The student gets driving theory in the classroom, and a chance to spend the other part of the day with an instructor in the car with them. Very reasonably priced for that type of instruction and experience.
http://www.streetsurvival.org/

This.

[Dana R]

If he's dumping the clutch when you're sitting in the passenger seat, imagine what he's doing when he's driving by himself.

I'd teach him to start the car from a stop on a level surface without using any more than idle speed on your 7. He is a lot like my son, in that he has no natural affinity for the mechanicals of the car, and hasn't learned how to be gentle and smooth on the controls. I wouldn't be harsh on him for revving the engine, so long as it was warmed up, but I'd explain that it's an expensive way to travel.

Once he gets accustomed to the take up of the clutch, I'd have him start on a gentle hill using no more than 1200 rpm with no sliding backwards. With practice, he'll improve, but you've got to make him practice!

[RonW]

By the end of our drive, he had improved a bit, but his clutch foot was still going down and coming up much too quickly, even for 'spirited driving'...

That sounds like the Game Boy Syndrome.

The original Game Boy didn't allow for small degrees of control. You had hard left, hard right and center. People afflicted with Game Boy Syndrome see every control as strictly on/off. Full clutch or no clutch. Full gas or no gas.

The other possibility is that he's just trying see how far he can push you and get away with it. Good luck dealing with that.

[davintosh]

Sign them up for Street Survival or your local club's car control clinic. The student gets driving theory in the classroom, and a chance to spend the other part of the day with an instructor in the car with them. Very reasonably priced for that type of instruction and experience.
http://www.streetsurvival.org/

Great suggestion; I had forgotten about those classes. There's one coming up in about a month in the Twin Cities area. I think I'll sign him up for it.

Lots of other great suggestions; I especially like nnarth212's idea of getting him to convince passengers it's an automatic. Not a great fan of the closed garage idea though...

cvillebimmer: given the kid's typical demeanor, I doubt he does it just to piss me off. He's not the typical baggy pants idiot punk teenager with a truckload of attitude; he's pretty well behaved & eager to please. If he's doing it intentionally, I'd lean towards the idea that he's trying to impress me with how well (as in fast) he's shifting. And several times when I was asking for smoother transitions between shifts, he'd say, "Wasn't that smooth?" But yeah; I was surprised he'd be jerking the thing around like that with me right there. Especially when I'd nearly bit his head off a couple of times.

[lmc337]

My father taught me the gas/cluth relationship on a dirt bike -
- too much clutch, too easy on gas: kick start it again
- too much gas, too fast on clutch: end up on your ass
- stay easy in the middle and you can ride...

Two or three stalls later, I was tearing down the farm trails with ease. Fortunately never wound up on my ass, and finally learned to pop the front wheel up with control just right!

[GrahamB]

Two words: Bus pass.

Hopefullly it is just a phase. I have friends that never grew out of the turd shifting, not because they didn't care, but because they just couldn't tell. I think the class is the right step. Teach him without you being the enforcer. Will make for happier family!

Graham

[nnarth212]

My father taught me the gas/cluth relationship on a dirt bike - ....

Two or three stalls later, I was tearing down the farm trails with ease. Fortunately never wound up on my ass, and finally learned to pop the front wheel up with control just right!

That's a great idea; fun as well.

[derrith]

I'd second the recommendation to start on level ground and have your son slowly let out the clutch until the car is moving. That has been the first technique I've used to teach my brother and four or five friends. None of their parent even had a manual car they could learn on.

[C.R. Krieger]

Sign them up for Street Survival or your local club's car control clinic. The student gets driving theory in the classroom, and a chance to spend the other part of the day with an instructor in the car with them. Very reasonably priced for that type of instruction and experience.
http://www.streetsurvival.org/

Great suggestion; I had forgotten about those classes. There's one coming up in about a month in the Twin Cities area. I think I'll sign him up for it.

As a Street Survival instructor, I strongly recommend the program. Among other things, I think it's very hard for kids to take instruction from family, but not hard at all from non-family whose skills they respect. That said, I have spent entire weekends struggling with an intermediate student who should know better and who should have been able to follow instructions better that insisted on banging every shift at Road America. After more than a day with my helmet constantly banging off his headrest, I got out and gave him another instructor because I was getting carsick.

It was another instructor ride at the track that I shall never forget as a model of smoothness when my student in a 2002 took me down pit lane making every shift deliberate, collected, and remarkably smooth. I agree that this should be your kid's aspirational goal. Once he knows how to make it smooth, he can then move on to 'fast'. Until then, I'd mandate a rev limit, too. You can buy telltale tachometers if he doesn't want to play along with the plan.

[athayer187]

Sign them up for Street Survival or your local club's car control clinic. The student gets driving theory in the classroom, and a chance to spend the other part of the day with an instructor in the car with them. Very reasonably priced for that type of instruction and experience.
http://www.streetsurvival.org/

Great suggestion; I had forgotten about those classes. There's one coming up in about a month in the Twin Cities area. I think I'll sign him up for it.

As a Street Survival instructor, I strongly recommend the program. Among other things, I think it's very hard for kids to take instruction from family, but not hard at all from non-family whose skills they respect. That said, I have spent entire weekends struggling with an intermediate student who should know better and who should have been able to follow instructions better that insisted on banging every shift at Road America. After more than a day with my helmet constantly banging off his headrest, I got out and gave him another instructor because I was getting carsick.

It was another instructor ride at the track that I shall never forget as a model of smoothness when my student in a 2002 took me down pit lane making every shift deliberate, collected, and remarkably smooth. I agree that this should be your kid's aspirational goal. Once he knows how to make it smooth, he can then move on to 'fast'. Until then, I'd mandate a rev limit, too. You can buy telltale tachometers if he doesn't want to play along with the plan.

I second this as well. I've had a number of students who start the day thinking they have something to prove, want to drive fast, etc. My number one instructing point is to learn smooth, and then fast is just a byproduct. I had a student at Monticello last week who had self-imposed speed limits (drove a Lotus Elise, wouldn't go more than 100 mph anywhere on track), which helped greatly with reinforcing smooth is fast.

Send him to a Street Survival school - he'd have a blast and learn a thing or two along the way.

[a]

I wonder if the Street Survival course would effectively reduce the likelihood of a new driver's first accident. If it does , and it should , then it is money well spent.

[wkohler]

YOU KEPT LETTING HIM DRIVE????!!!

[davintosh]

YOU KEPT LETTING HIM DRIVE????!!!

I know, I know... He didn't stay behind the wheel for very long on Sat. evening, but I do want him to learn proper technique, hence the Sunday session. It will be a while before he gets behind the wheel of anything with a clutch without me riding shotgun though. I've already threatened him with buying an automatic if he doesn't shape up, and he didn't like that idea. Both of the Hondas are out of town for another week or so, and the 528 isn't insured yet, so we're down to the 735 and the Freestar. He's on a short leash.

I am planning on putting him through the Street Survival course next month, although I've got a schedule conflict to work out for that. I'm hoping to use that as a positive incentive for smoothing out his shifting; we'll work on it together (using some of the tips I gleaned from here! Thanks everybody!) and if I see sufficient improvement, we'll go. I mentioned the class to him last night and showed him the website for it -- he's pumped. I intend to milk that for all its' worth.

A couple of people have mentioned that getting corrected by Dad doesn't always carry the weight of the same correction by a third party, and I think there's probably a bit of that going on between him and me. He aims to please, but when I express my opinion about something, he'll often counter with something he heard from someone else. Like he wants my approval, but still looks for ways to discredit me at every turn. I think that's normal, because I remember having the same attitude toward my dad when I was in high school. I remember a few years ago, harping on my youngest son night after night to use just a dab of toothpaste on his toothbrush, but night after night he'd put a huge glob on there, "just like they do in commercials." Then one night he puts a little dab on there & comments that his teacher told him, "all you need is little bit, the size of a pea." I coulda screamed. I followed my wife's advice instead & gave a little encouragement. It wasn't easy, but I got it out!

[demetk]

YOU KEPT LETTING HIM DRIVE????!!!

Street Survival class is highly recommended by me. Daughter was meek and mild at the beginning on the circle course and became bad ass at the end. I needed to replace the tires at the end. But only two? That was weird.

[oldskool]

I've never let let anyone abuse my drivetrain unless they had a magnificent set of knockers. I can stomach the clunking and the clutch smell a lot better if I'm staring at a set of sweater puppies I know I've got a chance of petting later when she's feeling accomplished.

[davintosh]

I've never let let anyone abuse my drivetrain unless they had a magnificent set of knockers. I can stomach the clunking and the clutch smell a lot better if I'm staring at a set of sweater puppies I know I've got a chance of petting later when she's feeling accomplished.

Um, lemme guess... no kids?

I hafta be nice to him this week because Fathers' Day is coming up. I already bought my Fathers' Day gift that's going to be from him (and the others); a nice floor jack with 20" of lift. It's purchased but not gifted yet, so Angry Dad has to stay away for a few more days.

[C.R. Krieger]

I am planning on putting him through the Street Survival course next month, although I've got a schedule conflict to work out for that. I'm hoping to use that as a positive incentive for smoothing out his shifting; we'll work on it together (using some of the tips I gleaned from here! Thanks everybody!) and if I see sufficient improvement, we'll go. I mentioned the class to him last night and showed him the website for it -- he's pumped. I intend to milk that for all its' worth.

Another incentive: the majority of the students are usually girls ... none of whom will be impressed by a showoff.

[davintosh]

Another incentive: the majority of the students are usually girls ... none of whom will be impressed by a showoff.

Seriously? I suppose most of the guys "already know how to drive" and are too cool for that sort of thing. But yeah; he'll be all over that.

I took the boy out for another coaching session tonight. We started with him pulling a number of slow starts with the engine at idle and his foot off the throttle. He did pretty well & didn't kill the engine at all. I think he's finally paying attention to what the car feels like as the clutch plate engages with the flywheel. Through the entire drive the engine speed never topped 3k (I didn't even mention that to him) and about 80% of the clutch releases were smooth like buttah. I was impressed. He is able to drive smoothly, but he's still not going anywhere in that car without me at his side for a while. Practice makes perfect.

[RonW]

Maybe you could rig up some pendulum-type gadget to put on the dash. The gadget can swing forward and backward, but not side-to-side.

The idea is:
1. Keep the gadget from swinging when you shift.
2. Imagine the clutch pedal is red-hot.

In other words, shift as smoothly as possible, with as little clutch time as possible.

[1st 5er]

Wow... what a great thread, with great input.
Sounds like you're handling it just fine.

Taught my wife and all four kids to drive sticks.
I was not easy to live with at the time and I'm surprised they, and our family, survived.

[garageboy]

As a Street Survival instructor for about 5 or 6 years now as well as a person who has taught many women to drive a clutch, and a big fan of sweater puppies, of course, I'd like to share my thoughts.

If you are hoping that the SS class will teach your son how to drive a clutch, specifically, I think you will be very disappointed. Most of the day is spent putting the students in various types of exercises. Some exercises are to make them screw up and recover, emulating a real-life situation, as well as teach them the importance of where their eyes are looking at all times (like the emergency lane-change maneuver, increasing/decreasing radius turns, or the skid pad figure-eight). Others are there to help them judge distances and understand where their car is positioned (like the back-up maneuver). And yet others are there to teach them smoothness and how to apply the minimal inputs to achieve the best result (like the slalom).

Perhaps, indirectly, the slalom exercise can be a useful tool to teach smooth clutch operation, but frankly it's more about gas, brakes, and steering, since those are the inputs we wish to teach them to minimize in that exercise. So, none of these exercises will directly address the clutch dumping problem, and since most students are driving automatics (and not BMWs), shifting is not a focus of the SS program.

Having said that, SS is a great program, and will improve their overall driving. That is a guarantee. Remember, however, that we encourage them to drive the car they are most likely to drive (in his case, the Civic). But I think the best advice given here about learning to drive a clutch was suggesting learning how to get started smoothly in first and reverse on impulse (idle) power only, and then teaching them to start on an uphill, with a maximum limit of, say, 1500rpm.

Just as an aside, I have always backed my E28s into my garage on impulse power - and I have a very long driveway - and it's never an issue. My E39, on the other hand, with all its computerized nonsense, in the same situation, will get very confused when I try to move it on only impulse power - the idle will start to fluctuate wildly, and then it will stall. POS.

My 2 cents. Hope it is helpful,
.steve.
NYC (NY BMW CCA)
Editor, Die Zugspitze
525i
528e
528e
528e

[stuartinmn]

Makes me think of the stories my brother-in-law told me about when he taught my sister how to drive a stick, in the '69 Roadrunner he owned at the time.

Maybe you could rig up some pendulum-type gadget to put on the dash. The gadget can swing forward and backward, but not side-to-side.

The idea is:
1. Keep the gadget from swinging when you shift.
2. Imagine the clutch pedal is red-hot.

In other words, shift as smoothly as possible, with as little clutch time as possible.

How about hanging a small lead weight on a string from the ceiling, so it klonks him in the forehead if he takes off too quickly?

[davintosh]

... How about hanging a small lead weight on a string from the ceiling, so it klonks him in the forehead if he takes off too quickly?

I'm liking that idea!

garageboy: I'm not expecting the SS class to do much for his sloppy shifting habits, but it should be a good incentive for him to improve, and should go a long way toward getting him to think a little bit about how he's driving.