Adding Freeze 12 to R12?

[mcm97]

My AC is blowing cool but not cold and it's hitting triple digits here in Texas. Can I top off my R12 with Freeze 12? If there anything else I should look at before I go too crazy with this? Running 4/70 for "AC" is getting old...

[Blue Shadow]

Well if the interweb says they are compatible, mix em up and let us know.

Check the sight glass. How much you got? How much do you need to make it full?

Why don't you just get some 12?

[mcm97]

Its easier to find crack in Dallas than R12. Thus I'm hoping to go this route. Ive never messed with an AC unit before so this all is new to me but as you can see I'm motivated

http://www.weather.com/weather/today/Fo ... h+TX+76137

[Nanajoth]

You wont be able to recover your R-12 if you need to remove it for some reason since it will ruin the recovery machine.

[Coldswede]

Just buy a few cans of R12 off eBay, sign the resale waiver, and "Sell" it to your AC shop. Most have a guy who remembers the stuff from pre-history.

[Blue Shadow]

Its easier to find crack in Dallas than R12.

Doubtful. R-12 is a readily available refrigerant at any specialty shop. Now is not the time to find it on CL at fair prices but you should be able to find some that way. And the bay, already mentioned has it all day long.

[bojangles]

R12 - "freon" has a significant ozone depleting effect.
R134a (NOT called freon) has NO ozone depleting effect
they both have global warming effects.

For the most part the rules are the same for all refrigerants, but in some cases, there are differences for those that have ozone depleting effects.

Putting R-12 in a known leaking system is illegal. I think this applies to the entire planet earth. Americans can only buy it legally in a couple of states, and only with epa certification. (section 609). Finding the leak is another story, technicians are required to look for the leak, but are allowed to say "no leak found". It is a loophole that can be used to do endless work or to recharge without guilt.

Whether you care about it or not does not change the law.

Ideally you evacuate (recover) the R12, and find the leak, repair it, then refill by weight as precisely as you can.

Anything else is just guessing, and your AC will not perform well. Topping up is not really a good idea, most shops have the ability to weigh what they suck out of your car, then put it back.

This is some decent reading on the topic- presented to owners of cars with r12

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/recharge.html

and here is info about the substitute stuff that is being flogged everywhere.

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html


for all you nay-sayers -

http://epa.gov/compliance/complaints/index.html

LOL

[nny528i]

AFIK R-12 is no longer produced and is VERY expensive. it would be worthwhile to convert to 134A it will take a couple of hours to do the o rings and oil but beyond that its a cinch and then you can top up whenever you want for little cost.

[Hit Man X]

You cannot mix R12 with F12 (just read the can), F12 is mostly 134A and R-142B from what I can recall. The oils are all different, this is just setting yourself up for catastrophic failure. I mean F12 is different than R12 is different than R134A.

Also, you cannot just drop 134A into an old R12 system. You must flush the old oil out if you want it to last... plus 134A likes to leak out of the old style hoses too. Not fun and not a few hour job.

Sight glass method is useless as F12 mandates less charge so it is not dependable.

134A is being phased out soon anyway with 1234yf. Great eh? More reason to just keep your car on R12. Just keep it R12 and spend a few hundred to have a parallel flow condenser in the car along with new hoses. This plus an evap core cleansing will make you nice and cool. Tint makes a world of difference too.

The Seiko compressor is pretty lame. Sanden/Seltec conversion kits are on Amazon for about $120. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001G394K2 About $200 for the updated compressor.



I HIGHLY suggest just taking the test and attaining the EPA 609 certification. http://www.epatest.com/609/ This way you have no problems buying R12 anywhere. The exam is online and open book, around $40.

R12 is all over the place if you look around. It is not 'VERY expensive' by any means if you know how to shop, even in the summer. I paid $270 for one of my 30lb tanks in the winter. That is around $10/lb (16oz)... the 12oz cans of 134A in the store are at least $8 around here now and I have seen them for $15 per 12oz can at the local auto store!

Hope it helps.

[alpinacsi]

You cannot mix R12 with F12 (just read the can), F12 is mostly 134A and R-142B from what I can recall. The oils are all different, this is just setting yourself up for catastrophic failure. I mean F12 is different than R12 is different than R134A.

http://www.freeze12.com/

According to their website it is compatable with r-12 and is a drop in replacement.

This is from their site:

FREEZE 12™ is EPA acceptable for mobile applications subject to the use conditions applicable to motor vehicle air conditioning.

FREEZE 12™ is an ideal replacement for R-12 requiring no extensive training.

FREEZE 12™ is a patented product.

FREEZE 12™ is non-flammable and contains no CFC'S.

FREEZE 12™ is made from readily available raw materials.

FREEZE 12™ requires no system flushes or lubricant change. It works with the existing R-12 lubricant.

FREEZE 12™ has been sold for several years and has been installed successfully in thousands of makes and models without problems. Conversion simply requires different fittings and labels which are available through H&H Co. (Click any store button or Call (858)442-0138

FREEZE 12™ is the ideal replacement for older R-12 A/C systems that normally require expensive retrofitting to R-134a.

FREEZE 12™ is priced way below R-12.

FREEZE 12™ is lighter than R-12 therefore you will not have to use as much. Approximately 90% of the required R-12 charge is all that is needed.

[Hit Man X]

Replacement, not to be mixed. How do you mix R134A and R12?

First line off the can I have laying around:

'INSTRUCTIONS -

Before using Freeze 12, recover all residual R12 in the A/C system...'

No where does it say you can just top it off. I will take a picture of the can if you need it.



F12 uses Ester oil, R12 uses Mineral, R134A almost always uses PAG oil. They cannot be mixed. This is auto HVAC at its most basic

[nny528i]

who said anything about mixing 134a and r12. The conversion to 134a is not that horrible to do, afaik it is the orings that were the issue with 134a not the hoses. I have done several conversions and none took more than 3 hours to do. Lastly not sure where you are buying your 134a but 15 a can is not the basic stuff that is something withadditives or funny can or something the basic stuff is a fraction of that.

[Snakeyestx]

Works fine... I did it last year on the 28, in my XJ-6, and before on several Jeeps as well. (F12 with R12)

To be fair, R-12 is still around and the prices have come down since the demand dropped off quite a bit. There was a guy here in town pawning off cans on CL for 20 bucks a pop. 99% of the time, conscientious sellers will require the EPA license, but there's always someone out there who doesn't care.

FWIW, Freeze-12 in retail outlets require the license nowadays too.

[alpinacsi]

Replacement, not to be mixed. How do you mix R134A and R12?

First line off the can I have laying around:

'INSTRUCTIONS -

Before using Freeze 12, recover all residual R12 in the A/C system...'

No where does it say you can just top it off. I will take a picture of the can if you need it.



F12 uses Ester oil, R12 uses Mineral, R134A almost always uses PAG oil. They cannot be mixed. This is auto HVAC at its most basic

I just quoted their website and even provided a link so you do not have to base it on my say so. I never said it was a drop in for 134 and their website clearly defines it for use with r12 systems.

[Rich Euro M5]

Putting R-12 in a known leaking system is illegal. I think this applies to the entire planet earth. Americans can only buy it legally in a couple of states, and only with epa certification. (section 609). Finding the leak is another story, technicians are required to look for the leak, but are allowed to say "no leak found". It is a loophole that can be used to do endless work or to recharge without guilt.

There's a reason most so called A/C technicians cannot find a leak, they don't have, or are unwilling to make the financial investment for a good leak detector. The best leak detector I have personally used in the Yokogawa H-10G, it finds leaks lessor ( read CHEAP) leak detectors cannot locate.

One other point, before the ban on R-12, when the stuff could be purchased for $0.99 a pound, all automotive A/C systems leaked some charge over time. Most of this leakage was seal / o-ring related, followed by failure of the crimps at the ferrules. If you knew anything about refrigeration, you'd know that refrigerators used to be charged with R-12 and they didn't leak charge across decades of operation. Why? Because they are hard welded systems with a sealed pot style compressor. There are no o-rings or crimped ferrules in the system to leak, and the compressor seal is internal to the pot.

Weighing refrigerant charge is only required if the system doesn't have a sight glass. In addition, weighing the charge doesn't guarantee it's the correct charge. Only gross incompetence results in a massive overfill while viewing a sight glass.

FWIW: the completely stock R-12 charged A/C system in my '86 535i blows at 40 degree F from the center vent on a humid 100 degree Houston day while idling. I don't weigh the charge, I charge while watching the the sight glass. During the charging process I spray the condensor with a light stream of water from a garden hose, and monitor the center vent temperature with the fan at the 1st setting. The sight glass will have an occasional flash of a few bubbles when properly charged.

Rich

[alpinacsi]

F12 uses Ester oil, R12 uses Mineral, R134A almost always uses PAG oil. They cannot be mixed. This is auto HVAC at its most basic

Yes, R12 systems were original supplied with mineral oil and 134a was generally supplied with PAG and they can not be mixed.

Yes, freeze12 uses ester.

Ester is compatable with both R12 and 134a and is generally used in the systems with blend refrigerants.When converting from r12 to 134a it is still necessary to remove as much of the original lubricant as possible but the ester oil will mix with the remaining mineral oil. When converting from r12 to freeze12; the oil does not have to be drained.

There are also synthetic replacements that will replace all of the lubricants.

[Mike W.]

I can't believe the fact that R134a doesn't perform as well hasn't been mentioned yet. If you keep the system relatively stock, you will not have as good of cooling with R134a as with R12. Some people get creative like Jbort with his double, parallel flow condenser set up, but most just do a basic retro then complain it isn't as good.

[mooseheadm5]

I'm glad that some people that actually know what they are talking about have chimed in. I was reading this earlier this morning on my phone and found myself wishing that that only those that actually knew what they were talking about would reply since it is so easy to confuse people on this stuff.

When using anything other than stock refrigerant, best performance can be achieved by recovering all of the old refrigerant, removing and draining the compressor then filling with the appropriate type and volume of oil, flushing the system with the correct type of solvent, and replacing the dryer. This is the best way to get R134a to perform close to stock. Just did this on my M5 and I have frosty cold AC (this change was necessitated by a bad expansion valve.)

That said, I have just chucked a can of freeze 12 into a partially charged R12 system on an E30. Worked great for years till I parted the car. That was the wrong way to do it, and you should not do that, but it might work. I'd rather do it the right way though.

[bojangles]

You cannot mix R12 with F12 (just read the can), F12 is mostly 134A and R-142B from what I can recall. The oils are all different, this is just setting yourself up for catastrophic failure. I mean F12 is different than R12 is different than R134A.

http://www.freeze12.com/

According to their website it is compatable with r-12 and is a drop in replacement.

This is from their site:

FREEZE 12™ is EPA acceptable for mobile applications subject to the use conditions applicable to motor vehicle air conditioning.

FREEZE 12™ is an ideal replacement for R-12 requiring no extensive training.

FREEZE 12™ is a patented product.

FREEZE 12™ is non-flammable and contains no CFC'S.

FREEZE 12™ is made from readily available raw materials.

FREEZE 12™ requires no system flushes or lubricant change. It works with the existing R-12 lubricant.

FREEZE 12™ has been sold for several years and has been installed successfully in thousands of makes and models without problems. Conversion simply requires different fittings and labels which are available through H&H Co. (Click any store button or Call (858)442-0138

FREEZE 12™ is the ideal replacement for older R-12 A/C systems that normally require expensive retrofitting to R-134a.

FREEZE 12™ is priced way below R-12.

FREEZE 12™ is lighter than R-12 therefore you will not have to use as much. Approximately 90% of the required R-12 charge is all that is needed.

Here is the list of what is officially acceptable to the EPA.
http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigera ... mvacs.html
Be very careful about the EXACT name of what you are being sold... they all label them with very similar names - it is very confusing.

here is what I can find about Freeze 12 (and others) They are mostly R134a plus something else. I dont have a clue what level of evacuating, and flushing, and oil substituting is needed for each of these.

-Free Zone (RB-276). Supplied by Refrigerant Gases, this blend contains 79% R-134a, 19% HCFC-142b and 2% lubricant.

Freeze 12. Supplied by Technical Chemical, this blend contains 80% R-134a and 20% HCFC-142b.

FRIGC (FR-12). Made by Intermagnetics General and marketed by Pennzoil, this blend contains 59% R-134a, 39% HCFC-124 and 2% butane.

GHG-X4 (Autofrost & McCool Chill-It). This blend is supplied by Peoples Welding Supply and contains 51% R-22, 28.5% HCFC-124, 16.5% HCFC-142b and 4% isobutane (R-600a).

GHG-HP. Also supplied by Peoples Welding Supply, this blend contains 65% R-22, 31% HCFC-142b and 4% isobutane (R-600a).

Hot Shot\Kar Kool. Supplied by ICOR, this blend contains 50% R-22, 39% HCFC-124, 9.5% HCFC-142b and 1.5% isobutane (R-600a).

[bojangles]

here is MORE info about drop in refrigerants, taken from this page. http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigera ... ssubs.html


Misleading Use of "Drop-in" to Describe Refrigerants
Many companies use the term "drop-in" to mean that a substitute refrigerant will perform identically to CFC-12, that no modifications need to be made to the system, and that the alternative can be used alone or mixed with CFC-12. However, EPA believes the term confuses and obscures several important regulatory and technical points. First, charging one refrigerant into a system before extracting the old refrigerant is a violation of the SNAP use conditions and is, therefore, illegal. Second, certain components may be required by law, such as hoses and compressor shutoff switches. If these components are not present, they must be installed. See the section below on use conditions for more information on these points. Third, it is impossible to test a refrigerant in the thousands of air conditioning systems in existence to demonstrate identical performance. In addition, system performance is strongly affected by outside temperature, humidity, driving conditions, etc., and it is impossible to ensure equal performance under all of these conditions. Finally, it is very difficult to demonstrate that system components will last as long as they would have if CFC-12 were used. For all of these reasons, EPA does not use the term "drop-in" to describe any alternative refrigerant.

[Blue Shadow]

But that EPA crap is their way of saying it is illegal. Lots of stuff is illegal but it still works.

The EPA is pushing towards a high buck R134a conversion on the older cars as the new R-1234yf (twelve thirty-four) refrigerant is being phased in on new high end cars.

[garageboy]

Hi. I have on-the-ground experience with Freeze 12. It's great stuff and I would never hesitate to use it in my E28.

I would concur that while you can top off an R12 system, that's an environmentally insensitive thing to do. I would evacuate, as I did, verify there are no leaks (i.e. does it maintain vacuum - I let an A/C shop do that), and then fill er up with Freeze 12 entirely. It takes a bit of compression before you get cooling (I mean under a minute, as opposed to under 10 seconds), but I have found Freeze 12 to work beautifully.

Of course, the Time Capsule has been converted to R134a, and when I picked up the car last July 4th (when it was reading 114 degrees on the OBC when the engine was "cold"), it was so effective that I had to turn down the A/C after awhile. I think by 1988, BMW figured out A/C.

Hope this helps,
.steve.
NYC
1988 528e, 5-speed, 85k, The Time Capsule Holy SHIT. I'm down to one car!
2001 525i, 5-speed, 118k, The Toaster, RIP
1987 528e, 5-speed, 276k, The Organ Donor, formerly "Lady Di", parting out, RIP
1983 528e, 5-speed, 317k, The Raped Turtle, RIP, parted out, gone

[bojangles]

It seems that freeze 12 is 80% r134a, 20% HFC142b
I wonder what the oil requirement is for this?

If 80% r134a works well, I suppose that 100% would be OK too. For sure with a 100% conversion to R134a there is a compressor oil issue. Maybe the other 20% (HFC142b) helps with using the old oil? It seems a bit far fetched that 20% of HFC142b would make a big difference in the cooling ability.

[Blue Shadow]

It seems that freeze 12 is 80% r134a, 20% HFC142b
I wonder what the oil requirement is for this?

Yes the 142b is in the mix to carry the mineral oil through the system.

[Hit Man X]

Hi. I have on-the-ground experience with Freeze 12. It's great stuff and I would never hesitate to use it in my E28.

I would concur that while you can top off an R12 system, that's an environmentally insensitive thing to do. I would evacuate, as I did, verify there are no leaks (i.e. does it maintain vacuum - I let an A/C shop do that), and then fill er up with Freeze 12 entirely. It takes a bit of compression before you get cooling (I mean under a minute, as opposed to under 10 seconds), but I have found Freeze 12 to work beautifully.

Of course, the Time Capsule has been converted to R134a, and when I picked up the car last July 4th (when it was reading 114 degrees on the OBC when the engine was "cold"), it was so effective that I had to turn down the A/C after awhile. I think by 1988, BMW figured out A/C.

Hope this helps,
.steve.
NYC

FWIW, just holding a vacuum does not mean it will not leak under positive pressure. My 300SD had this problem.

Now I test the system with nitrogen or 134A prior to the charge.

[ncrdbl1]

R12 - "freon" has a significant ozone depleting effect.
R134a (NOT called freon) has NO ozone depleting effect
they both have global warming effects.

For the most part the rules are the same for all refrigerants, but in some cases, there are differences for those that have ozone depleting effects.

Putting R-12 in a known leaking system is illegal. I think this applies to the entire planet earth. Americans can only buy it legally in a couple of states, and only with epa certification. (section 609). Finding the leak is another story, technicians are required to look for the leak, but are allowed to say "no leak found". It is a loophole that can be used to do endless work or to recharge without guilt.

Whether you care about it or not does not change the law.

Ideally you evacuate (recover) the R12, and find the leak, repair it, then refill by weight as precisely as you can.

Anything else is just guessing, and your AC will not perform well. Topping up is not really a good idea, most shops have the ability to weigh what they suck out of your car, then put it back.

This is some decent reading on the topic- presented to owners of cars with r12

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/title6/609/recharge.html

and here is info about the substitute stuff that is being flogged everywhere.

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc-12a.html


for all you nay-sayers -

http://epa.gov/compliance/complaints/index.html

LOL

Someone has been listening to and repeating talking points. There is one glaring mistake in your first couple sentences that lose you all credibility. R-12 it self is NOT Freon. Freon is the BRAND NAME FOR DUPONT BRAND REFRIGERANTS. They have produced R-12 in the past and they produce R-134a today.

The name for R-12 is Dichlorodifluoromethane. Same way as R-22 is chlorodifluoromethane even though many of my former customers called it freezon.

R-12 is a CFC or chlorofluorocarbon, R-22 is a HCFC or hydrochlorofluorocarbon and R-+134a is a HFC or HydroFluoroCarbon.

The environmentalist alarmist are up in arms again because they claim that HFCs have a high global warming factor. And they are pushing going back to propane based refrigerants. Which is a very dangerous move because as we learned in the past with the phaseout of CFCs, that propane based replacement have a tenancy to explode during charging if not done properly. There have been a large number of injuries and even deaths due to people attempting to replace their CFC refrigerant with a propane based refrigerant. This even happens to skilled ac technicians if there is a restriction in the system or if the vacuum does not remove all foreign matter.

Even more telling is that the environmentalist groups and ozone activist have had to revise their claims on the ozone depletion rates of these refrigerants. With the depletion rate of HCFC R-22 revised DOWN by 32%.

Also there is NO PROHIBITION on recharging a unit with a known leak. This is just something that unethical repairmen use to get people to buy a new system or to replace components. Since R-12 when it was still being produced and R-22 today cost have skyrocketed it cost too much to do so if it has to be done on a yearly basis. This is actually a question on the certification test.

[tn535i]

I'll give a couple opinions as I have followed this over the years...

The legislation helped prevent future damage to the environment I agree but also (wink wink) was great for future profits of refrigerants and systems when everything existing had been cheaply and widely copied and patents had expired. If you think it wasn't as much economic direction as environmental you are naïve. They could have chose to require new systems to use a new refrigerant but put significant restrictions on the old refrigerant production and phased it out, but they banned production to force everything to change to more expensive alternative and drove prices of anything remaining sky high for the few of us with older cars that still had working A/C. Thanks.

The idea that the few remaining cars on the road with R-12 might be leaking out and ruining the planet and calling that owner socially irresponsible is ridiculous.. even if they deliberately allow the leak to continue or let it out. You will hear that from some and ignore it. For many years people routinely purged everything to atmosphere and recharge their R12 system with $5 cans from the auto parts store. What makes you think that 95+% of the R12 ever made hasn't already been let loose ? Most of the rest is probably coming from cars in junk yards nobody is worried about leaking.

The idea that you cannot properly charge a system that is a little low without first discharging and recharging by weight is garbage. If you know how to measure pressures and know how the system works you can usually & easily diagnose where the problem is and decide if it can be recharged 'only' or has failing components. If you can't do this with a thermometer and a gauge you shouldn't even be in the business or giving advice.

Your biggest problem is what needs to be fixed and identify if it is just a leak or something has gone bad. I've found even a good leak detector can have a hard time finding the leaks. I have access to one. If everything is working and the leak is too small to really find then more R-12 would be the simple solution but for the above. Maybe you can find someone willing to 'test' your system and recharge. I believe any alternative (whatever it is called) requires retrofit of your system to the newer style valves. Only using more R-12 allows you to maintain your original fittings and generally that can't be done properly without discharging your system. I believe it also requires retrofit labelling if you read the rules. Maybe you can get someone to discharge the system and recover the R-12 for you if you want to fix it. I think many will not for fear that it's not really just R-12 left in there on an old car. So you get to pay for disposal of the stuff now too. It's a racket designed to make you pay every way.

Many people are turning to the R-12a HC refrigerants for older cars and rarely driven, classic or historic cars that had original R-12 systems. It works for most and is compatible with all the old original systems components and oils. It carries some safety concerns and it might be a really bad idea if EVERY car on the road had butane in the A/C system. It would save the consumer crazy amounts of money and bankrupt companies if allowed so it must not be. A few too many fires in crashes would raise the alarm but I imagine a small percentage of the crashes that compromised the A/C would actually have flames. So there is a risk if you put it in your old BMW but I believe highly exaggerated.

It a shame but I find that our old BMW's seem to be prone to leaking more than many other cars. E30's seem worse than the E24/28 due to the expansion valve. I retrofitted my first e30 with hoses, valve and R/D and fresh PAG oil and charged it with 134a and it worked pretty well. It was a must to use recirculate in slow speed or stopped traffic but otherwise fine.

On another e30 we had that had very low or NO charge and an unknown leak I added about $10 of 12a and found the leak to be the x-valve. Replaced that and 'tested' it with 12a for a while because it was the cheapest way to see if I could get it working. Compressor at 305k miles was weak and it would cool OK but really needed a new compressor. We tested it for a while

On my 535 I have never been able to find a leak but it does slightly. Testing of pressure shows a weak compressor that should be replaced, again a weak point of the old wing cell(name ?) units on these 80's BMW's. My 535 is probably close to 300k and I think the compressors just get weak above 200k. My 535 cooled well at 225k. So when the compressor is weak the weight method is useless and I've been testing it for a couple years now to see if it is degrading or what I should do to fix it. It's only effective if you can keep moving but my commute is just a few minutes and I live with it.

On my Dad's 84 Prelude SI he must have a small leak and most the R12 was gone. He 'tested' it and it's working really nice so now I need to help him decide how to 'properly' fix it someday.

My 88 M6 is my greatest dilemma. Seems to be leaking a little as suction pressure is down and high side fine but it has never been charged and using genuine R12 would be the best way to do it. I also think the rear A/C valve sticks sometimes because either the rear A/C is colder than the front or at time not working and then the front seems cooler. But once I hear the valve click the rear comes back to life. Wish I had some R12 for that car so I have the same dilemma as you. The best way is not economical or considered unlawful and I know most any shop would love to get their hands on the M6 and I'd be out $1500.

It's so frustrating.

[Mike W.]

Someone has been listening to and repeating talking points. There is one glaring mistake in your first couple sentences that lose you all credibility. R-12 it self is NOT Freon. Freon is the BRAND NAME FOR DUPONT BRAND REFRIGERANTS. They have produced R-12 in the past and they produce R-134a today.

Correct. Just as Scotch tape and Skill Saw are widely used for any brand. Using the term Freon as a generic is technically incorrect, but widely done and nearly everyone knows what one means. Refrigerant is correct of course, or R12 in this case.

Also there is NO PROHIBITION on recharging a unit with a known leak. This is just something that unethical repairmen use to get people to buy a new system or to replace components. Since R-12 when it was still being produced and R-22 today cost have skyrocketed it cost too much to do so if it has to be done on a yearly basis. This is actually a question on the certification test.

Yes, but... The last I knew one was only able to legally recharge a leaking R12 system if it was leaking at a rate of less than 10% a year. Or similar, but definitely a limitation.