The totally sarcastic... How to Sell Your BMW

[garageboy]

I know, I'm merely venting, but it seems that the wisdom of this great list is not adequately getting passed down to new members, particularly when it comes to the do's or don't's of how best to sell your car on our friendly little list. While it is true that one needn't be a member for more than 30 seconds in order to post a for-sale advertisement (a policy with which I find myself in disagreement), it seems that even long-time members do not always follow best practices when trying to sell their car or car parts...

So here are some guidelines. For starters, if you're selling a car for $1000, you may do 1/6th of what you should do if you're asking $6000. But at today's exchange rates, I would say any car over $5000 should follow all the rules and expect to provide a lot of information to your buyers. Anyone selling an E28 for over $5000 will be attracting buyers from all over the USA and beyond.

For starters, don't tell us photos are coming. Don't tell us you will try to dig out some old photos. We don't care what the car looked like when you bought it. We only care what it looks like right now.

And speaking of "right now", I mean "daytime" Don't take photos of the car at night. We don't care. Take it in light. No shade. No shadows. Nothing complicated around the car that will reflect in the hood and hide problems. Simple. Clean. Daytime. Every body panel. Every wheel. Inside. Outside. More is more. Anything else, and we will try to use that to negotiate the price... downward.

And speaking of photos, yes. That is all. Yes. If you don't understand the meaning of yes, then log out, close your computer, and don't come back. Clear, detailed photos. Or don't come back. If you don't know how to post photos, just search "how to post photos" and figure it out. If you're too f*cking lazy to figure it out, pay someone to do it. If you're too f*cking cheap to pay someone to figure it out and do it, once again, log out, close your computer, and don't come back.

Don't take photos with your crappy cell phone camera and then apologize for taking photos with your crappy cell phone camera. Get a real camera. Take real photos. If you take photos with your crappy cellphone camera, we will use that information to negotiate the price... downward.

As long as we're on the topic of photos, give us all the news. The bad news as well as the good news. If you make a point of strategically avoiding taking a photo of the driver's seat, we will have no choice but to assume that the driver's seat looks like ass and that you are a fucktard trying to hide the fact that your driver's seat looks like ass. We will use it to negotiate the price... downward.

When you take photos, remove your shit. Or else we will know you're a f*cking slob and we probably won't buy your car. Pull up the floor mats. Remove the seat covers. Remove the trunk carpet. Again, if there is bad news, better we find it out now. If we find it out later, we will use that information to negotiate the price... downward.

Unless you are confined to a wheelchair, snap a few shots of the underside of the car as much as possible... especially if you make claims like "absolutely no rust whatsoever". When someone makes such a claim, that will attract a certain type of buyer, and I guarantee that buyer will be poking around under the car, so you might as well eliminate any "surprises" by getting some quality images of the underside.

Now that you have taken a whole bunch of photos with a real camera, sort through them, toss out the blurry ones, and set up a photo album somewhere and include the link in your advertisement.

Now that the photos are out of the way, it's time to write the advertisement. Do not speak in hyperbole. Do not offer your opinions. Just stick to the facts.

Here are some examples of information -- things we in the fact-based world call... FACTS -- you should put into your advertisement:
1. UCA bushings replaced with stock at 97k
2. original window sticker
3. converted to R134a in 2009
4. two owner car with ALL service records since car was new.
5. 5-speed (Getrag 260/6)

Here are some examples of opinions that we don't give two shits about and would all be better off if we didn't have to listen to:
1. really clean car (one man's clean is another man's ohmyfuckingchrist I will NOT sit in that thing)
2. runs great (this has no meaning)
3. rides great (this has even less meaning)
4. new tires (if they are actually new, has the dementia kicked in so badly already that you don't know what brand/model/size tire you just had installed? Really?)
5. one of the nicest E28 models to be found (do I need to explain why this is meaningless to us?)
6. The car is very quiet rolling down the road with no rattles. (I shit you not. This is a direct quote.)
7. Driver's seat is a little rough. (I interpret this to mean that the seat looks like ass, especially if you were too cheap and lazy to take photos of it, and I will have to spend at least $500 to make it right.)
8. NO TEXTING!!!!!!!!!!!!! CALL xxx-xxx-xxxx if interested. (added -- thanks to mojocoggo for reminding me about this!)

So I hope these simple tips help you write your advertisement a little more carefully. One thing I can state with utter certainty. If you are selling a nice car at a premium, photos sell the car. The better the photos, the closer you will get to your asking price. The reason is simple. You are asking a stranger to make an informed decision and spend a chunk of money; the only thing that stranger has to help with the decision are photos. If they can see that you have nothing to hide, they will also see the value in the car. And that is how you get your price. GLWS!

[RoyW]

Had a tough day, eh garageboy?

But, good advice nevertheless.

-RoyW

[unt0uchable]

Sticky time in the FS section. This is good stuff!

[Adam W in MN]

Love it, can we refer to this post now in replies to idiotic for sale postings?

Do not speak in hyperbole.

So true. If anything about the car is "like butter", for example how the transmission shifts everyone will assume you are lumped into the category of these assholes.

http://jalopnik.com/5975780/the-ten-bes ... al-car-ads

[BimmerSultan]

Like this? Hmmm

http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=105227&highlight=

The only reason I bring it up (your point is most definitely valid) is because I can't really even find anything that you've personally sold here. You know, for examples sake. Anyone can rant about something, but has that "ranter" actually done what they are claiming should be done. I can be one of the best couch coaches in the NFL, but I never even played HS ball so what does it really matter at that point. However, in this case I believe I can speak up because every car I've sold on here (which has been a few) demonstrates a proper way to offer a car for purchase.

I 100% agree that too many aren't taking the time and effort in their threads to give useful and meaningful info and certainly the one or two pic thing bugs the mess out of me too, but...

Are you mad because you are seriously considering some of these? Or maybe because you are putting in the effort and no one else is? Just curious for the clarification. I like rants as much as the next guy (I've made my share!), but also call anyone out onto the carpet if need be

[TheE28Ranch]

FS: Awesome BMW car from Germany (they build great stuff) that is better than that high school tail you used to get. Open to offers. PM me for details. Photos a possibility. If you are just kickin' tires, don't waste my time, just feel fortunate I have extended this offer to you, the thing is that sweet. Minimal rust.

Edit: sorry, crap I meant this to be it's own thread. Maybe I can just leave it here?

[charter21p5]

Garageboy, who is messing with you? Let's get a few forum members to pay a visit to their house... Hah *Joking.

Your points are valid and taken. Maybe we could sum them up or shorten them up in a sticky link located in the cars for sale section to provide a reference for future sellers as a "best practice" when posting cars for sale.

[mojocoggo]

drives like a dream

shifts like butter

i love the car

call for photos

no phone number

make offer

[garageboy]

Like this? Hmmm
http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=105227&highlight=
The only reason I bring it up (your point is most definitely valid) is because I can't really even find anything that you've personally sold here. You know, for examples sake.

Great example. Whatever information wasn't posted here was posted specifically in the link.

Here's another, with a link to photos and details:
http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=105437&highlight=

Despite the hater on that thread, I easily got my price. Even had a couple of lower offers. Everyone was happy. Lotsa info, lotsa photos.

Anyone can rant about something, but has that "ranter" actually done what they are claiming should be done.

You tell me. I used the word "pristine". But I backed it up with clear, hi-res photos.

Are you mad because you are seriously considering some of these? Or maybe because you are putting in the effort and no one else is? Just curious for the clarification. I like rants as much as the next guy (I've made my share!), but also call anyone out onto the carpet if need be

Hells no, bro. I'm not mad. I'm simply making fun of douchebags. It's a coping skill. Forgive me my guilty pleasures.Maybe I made a list member or two have a laugh. If someone actually learned something, even better. That's all it was for. If you guys wanna make a sticky, have at it. That wasn't my intention (probably should have posted to General Comments; mods feel free to move if appropriate). I was just having a bit o' fun at the keyboard, at the expense of a few douchebags (or perhaps the douchebag in us all...)

I'm always on the lookout for E28s, for myself, my family and friends, etc. Consistently, the best documented clean cars (again, over $5k) always sell the easiest and highest prices. News flash: there IS a right way and a wrong way to sell stuff on the Internet.

[BimmerSultan]

^^^touche douche

As usual, I disagree with most of your rebuttal, but no matter anyway really. I was merely poking fun back at the poker..or pokee...or whatever I mean. It's late, I'm tired and I rarely have anything intelligible to say so I thank you for keeping me entertained through bits of my day!



Deuces

[lilpoindexter]

I would also suggest, that very early in the verbiage of the ad, that we list: Year, Make, Model, mileage, transmission.

[Twanger]

I would also suggest, that very early in the verbiage of the ad, that we list: Year, Make, Model, mileage, transmission.

Year: 1082
Make: British Motor Works*
Model: 8 cylinder
Mileage: lots
Transmission: works most of the time


* Saw someone say British Motors Works in an ad after writing a paragraph of info on the designer of the e28. You'd think they know better

[Adam W in MN]

Another phrase I despise: "professionally repainted". Really, what does that phrase mean, if anything?

[djazz]

Absolutely perfect, except...

[theajinator]

It ran great before it was parked.

The car's so rare, it was bought new by the original owner!

[Tim in N FL]

Nicely done, Garageboy! I loved reading your rant on this topic. I am nominating this thread as a sticky!

There are so many of these commonly-used b.s. descriptors / phrases in used car listings we could easily create translation page for them here. I think we are already on our way given the responses to this thread. As Peter Griffin (aka Adrian in FL) would say...this topic "really grinds my gears."

[WilNJ]

How about this one?

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/9 ... se-ca.html

FS: 1991 944 S2 Coupe, black/black, 141K miles - San Jose, CA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...to see more photos, scroll down to the bottom of the post...


UPDATE: The car is sold.


--------------------- Original message advertising the car ---------------------


Hi folks,

After owning my 944 S2 for 12 years, it's time for a change and so I'm offering it for sale.

The details...

Summary
•Model: 944 S2 Coupe
•Year: 1991
•VIN: WP0AB294XMN410197
•Color: Black exterior, black interior
•Transmission: 5-speed manual, open differential (no LSD)
•Wheels: 17" Porsche OEM 993 Cup-II rims with colored crests (17x7 ET55 and 17x9 ET55) / Avon Tech M500 tires (205/50WR-17, 255/40WR-17) purchased in 2005
•Mileage: 141K miles as of May 2013
•CarFax Report: http://www.weissach.net/WP0AB294XMN4...2013.05.09.pdf
•Warranty: None, the car is being sold 'as is' in its existing condition
•Location: San Jose, CA
•Asking Price: $7,500 -or- best offer (Update: The car is sold)
◦The Excellence Magazine 2012 Buyer's Guide lists the low-to-high price range of a 944 S2 Coupe as being $7,100-$9,300
◦Nada "classic" retail price guide from low-to-high for a S2 Coupe is $9,100-$15,400 (as of 5/26/2013)
•Owner Contact Details: Deleted

Option Codes - Using data from: http://www.cantonia.com/option_codes.html
•454 - Cruise Control
•490 - HiFi Sound System
•494 - Amplifier System or 2x speakers on the back shelf. This one is a mystery as there was no additional amplifier in the car. The car did have an OEM Blaupunkt graphic equalizer which I removed and replaced with the stock shelf.
•573 - Air conditioning
•650 - Sun Roof
•946 - Leather Seats

My history with the car
•I purchased the car with 99K miles in 2001.
•For the first few years, I was putting on about 7-8K miles/year
•During that time, I did 2-3 track days and approximately 10-12 autocrosses
•With the arrival of kids, things slowed down and I would drive it about once per week to work - mostly to maintain the engine seals, keep the battery charged, etc.
•Then in 2009, I decided to refresh the car with an eye to doing track days. I spent a lot of money going through it on both the mechanical and suspension side.
•Since the refresh, I've done probably another 10-ish track days with it - the majority in the A-novice group, and the rest at the B-intermediate level
•But as happens, I do have a wandering eye and recently I was in a mood to change after 12 years of ownership. This car for sale is actually my second S2, I owned a red one for a few years in the mid-nineties. All up I've about 15 years of S2 experience.
•I purchased a BMW 135i in April - so this S2 is now offered for sale.

General condition
•Excellent mechanical condition with less than 8K miles on many major service items (e.g. clutch, oilpan gasket, etc.)
•Major suspension upgrades at 134K miles (e.g. Koni coilovers, rear torsion-bar delete, etc.)
•Exterior paint is what I'd call a "good 20-footer", but not a concours car. Each rim has some form of curb rash.
•Interior is excellent, and there are no dash cracks
•Feels strong, drives superbly

Major Service Items
•2011 / 138K miles
◦New engine timing and balance belts
•2010 / 137K miles
◦New oil cooler lines
•2009 / 134K to 135K miles
◦New front lower control arms
◦New front wheel bearings
◦New clutch (Sachs KF782-01), guide tube, fork bearing and slave
◦Reseal transaxle
◦New oil pan gasket
◦New engine mounts
•2008 / 133K miles
◦New radiator
•2005 / 129K miles
◦New engine belts/tensioners/rollers
◦Reseal the front of the engine
•2002 / 108K to 116K miles
◦New high pressure fuel lines (body to rail) to minimize fire hazard
◦New camshaft-chain and camshaft-tensioner-pad

Suspension upgrades
•2012 / 139K miles
◦Installed KLA Strut Brace: http://www.klaindustries.net/968strut/968strut.htm
•2009 / 134K miles
◦Koni “A1-Cup” Kit from Paragon Products, with Hypercoil springs (F 300 lbs/in, R 400 lbs/in): http://www.paragon-products.com/Coil...ni_cup_kit.htm
◦Rear coilover conversion (i.e. rear torsion bars are uninstalled and are supplied with the car)
◦Elephant Racing polybronze spring-plate bearings: http://www.elephantracing.com/suspen...44bushings.htm
◦Racer’s Edge MC-3500 adjustable front camber plates: http://www.racersedge-inc.com/racers...25718E0044D28E
◦968 M030 sway bars (front 30mm, rear 19mm adjustable)
◦968 M030 front castor blocks
•Note: With these components fitted, the track-oriented handling is very good and a vast improvement over the old stock components. However, there is more NVH because there are more solid suspension mounts (e.g. rear coilovers, front camber plates), and some of the components squeak.

Alignment
•I had been running a track alignment (e.g. -2.5° front camber, -3.0° rear camber)
•On May 20th, I had the aligment set to a more street friendly configuration. The work was done by Custom Alignment in Mountain View: http://www.customalignment.com/
•The new settings are:
◦Front
■Camber: -1.0°
■Caster: 4.0°
■Total Toe: 1/16"
◦Rear
■Camber: -2.2° (i.e. the least amount of negative camber achievable at the current rear ride height)
■Total Toe: 3/32"
■Thrust Angle: 0.0°

Brakes
•Currently fitted with stock-sized Zimmerman rotors
•The brake pads are Pagid RS14 "Blacks" - great at the track, but they do squeal... a lot.
•Also installed are the air deflectors from the 968 on the lower control arms. These route additional cooling air to the rotors.
•Brake fluid is ATE super blue, the last flush was in March 2012
•Stainless steel brake lines replace the OEM rubber lines
•I don't experience any brake fade with this setup when running track days (DEs) at Laguna Seca, a place that's notoriously hard on brakes.

Engine
•When I was buying the car back in 2001, there were 3x 944 S2s for sale in the Bay Area at that time, and naturally I test drove all of them.
•They all had their pros and cons, but the one I bought definitely pulled harder than the other two - at least according to my butt-dyno
•In 2002 at 110K miles, I had the car dynoed on a Dynojet 248H (at DSR) as part of a dyno-day organized by a fellow Rennlister:
◦My S2 made 187 wheel hp, which roughly approximates to 220 crank hp if you assume 15% drivetrain loss (thought it's important to take any dyno results with a large grain of salt)
◦Here's a link to an ancient discussion on the results: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...ock-944s2.html
◦Here's a link to the dyno chart: http://www.weissach.net/images/DynoC...E_20020907.jpg
•Porsche says the 944 S2 makes 208 crank hp, but there's always example-to-example variations and it would appear that my S2 was one of the stronger ones based on comparative test drives of other S2s, and the dyno results.
•As far as I know, it's a totally stock engine and I've made no modifications to it at all. But I never actually cracked the DME open to see if it's been "chipped".
•It still feels as strong today (31K miles later) as I recall it was back in 2002. But I don't have independant data to prove that.
•One thing to note is that a friend has seen a small puff of black smoke from the exhaust when changing gear during hard acceleration at the track. I'm no expert, but as I understand it when you see a puff of black smoke in those conditions, it usually means it's just unburnt fuel from the engine trying to compensate for the heavy load.

Oil consumption
•In March I checked the oil consumption and driving around San Jose (suburban environment), it's consuming 1 qt of oil in ~3K miles based on the following calculation:
◦Filled the oil up to the top mark on the dip stick
◦Drove the car every day for bit over 3-weeks
◦The oil level dropped ~10% of the way down after 489 miles of suburban driving
◦From the bottom mark on the dip stick to the top mark is 1.6 qts (per the owner's manual)
◦Hence an estimated consumption rate of 1 qt every 3K (suburban) miles
•At the track, the oil consumption is much higher. 1-2 qts over 5x 20-min track sessions in a day.

Exterior cosmetics
•Good, not perfect.
•The car has been re-sprayed at some point and for the most part, it's in good condition given the age and mileage.
•There are just two issues:
1.There is oxidation on the roof around the sunroof panel - this has appeared in the last 2 years. The fading is isolated to the roof panel, doesn't extend down the A/B/C pillars.
2.There is 2-inch crack in the paint on the front left fender (presumably there's bondo underneath that spot) - that appeared about 3 years ago
•So while the car was obviously hit to require painting, there doesn't appear to be any frame damage. It's a straight car as far as I can tell, and it's been looked over many, many times by various shops.
•I myself have had two fender-benders, with both the front-bumper and rear-bumper needing repair & paint. Each repair was less than $800.
•The CarFax report is clean, so I'm guessing any issues were small enough to not involve insurance companies.
•As regards the rest of the paint, there's a variety of nicks, scuffs and rock-chips, and a few small dings as well - but overall good for the age and mileage
•The rims (17" 993 Cup-IIs) I'm providing with the car all have some form of curb rash to varying degrees.
•So as I said above... I'd rank it a "good 20-footer"

Interior
•Excellent condition
•The dash is pristine
•Comes with the stock "comfort" seats

Things that need replacing
•The tires on the 17" 993 Cup-II rims should be replaced.
◦While there's plenty of thread left on them, they're 8 years old.
◦I've mostly used a set of 16x8 and (quite rare) 16x9 D90 rims with Toyo R888 tires on the car, but I'm selling those rims separately - the D90s are not included with the car.
•Front brake pads
◦Loads of thinkness left on the back pads
◦But the front pads need to be replaced
◦I'm throwing in a new set of front and back Metalmaster PBR-D440M brake pads with the car should the new owner want to use them: http://www.paragon-products.com/Brak...lash-track.htm
•Brake fluid
◦The last flush with ATE Super Blue was back in March 2012
◦I'd recommend doing a new flush

Things that have aged, but didn't bug me enough to bother addressing...
•The last time the AC was recharged (with R-12) was back in 2004. It lasted about 1 year (so there's a slow leak somewhere) and I've never bothered to recharge since.
◦If I was keeping the car, I'd probably do an AC-delete next time the belts are done.
•The rear hatch has delamination at the edges. This is very common on the 944. When you drive in the rain, you get a few inches of water pooling in the right rear fender well. Rain doesn't appear anywhere else. Since I so rarely drive the car in the rain, it never really bothered me.
◦If I was keeping the car, I think I'd simply drill a drain hole in the bottom of the fender well and ignore it from there on.
•The sunroof microswitch is not correctly aligned, so to open the roof you need to poke it with something like a key. But then you have to be carefull not to force the motors past any limits because you might strip some plastic gears. Sunroofs on 944s can cause trouble. So basically I leave it closed and I don't touch it.
◦I bought a latch kit and headliner to convert the roof to manual operation.
◦I'll include these parts with the car
•The rear hatch key doesn't operate the hatch motor. You can open the hatch using the button in the driver's side footwell - so the motor works just fine. The fault (I believe) is the microswitch in the rear keylock.
•Self canceling for the left-blinker doesn't work, I think the little tab broke off. You need to cancel it manually. Right-blinker cancelation works just fine.
•LCD clock backlight is out.
◦I bought a repair kit, but never installed it.
◦I'll include that kit with the car.
•Driver's side power seat switch doesn't raise the seat - which was okay for me as I like the seat to be in the lowest position possible. The motors work just fine, it's the switch that needs replacing.

Here's some photos...

Note: Higher resolution images of the following smaller photos can be found here: http://www.weissach.net/images/944S2/large/

Exterior


Wheels


Interior


Suspension components installed in 2009


Track photos - Note that the 16x8 and 16x9 D90 rims seen in these two photos are being sold separately...


Various


The only two exterior issues - 2" paint crack on left fender, oxidation on roof panel (isolated to the roof panel, the rest of the paint is in good condition)


Higher resolution images of the smaller photos above can be found here: http://www.weissach.net/images/944S2/large/


A few video clips from the track
•1x lap of Sears Point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... _IGV4wM6gU


•1x lap of Laguna Seca

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... ZAdYd9RTTQ



And then finally, if your significant other is concerned about the practicality of owning a 944...
•Short clip demonstrating the virtues of a 944 as a family car...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... qpXYFKZjvQ


So I hope you can tell that I've enjoyed owning and using this 944 S2 as it was intended. It's a good car and is well sorted.

If you're interested, I look forward to hearing from you. Please use the contact details at the top of this post.

Thanks.

Karl.

PS: If you're in the SF Bay Area, I'm planning to go to the Parts Heaven swap meet on Sunday June 2nd. You can see the car there in person...

[Sarc]

As long as we're on the topic of photos...

Step into the 21st century and take 2 minutes to create a Flickr account to host your photos. Photobucket sucks, plain and simple. It's the AOL of photo hosting sites.

[garageboy]

As long as we're on the topic of photos...

Step into the 21st century and take 2 minutes to create a Flickr account to host your photos. Photobucket sucks, plain and simple. It's the AOL of photo hosting sites.

I prefer to host photos at my own website, garageboy.com, because then I have more control over the presentation. I think google+ isn't a bad way to go if you're cheap... a bit better than flickr, IMHO...

[Drew in NYC]

As long as we're on the topic of photos...

Step into the 21st century and take 2 minutes to create a Flickr account to host your photos. Photobucket sucks, plain and simple. It's the AOL of photo hosting sites.

I was going to say more like Geocities.

I prefer to host photos at my own website, garageboy.com, because then I have more control over the presentation. I think google+ isn't a bad way to go if you're cheap... a bit better than flickr, IMHO...

The new Flickr is pretty good -- can't argue with a free terabyte of space.

[garageboy]

Necessary bump, it seems... LOL

I know the "car for car lovers" was a craigslist posting, but...

[wkohler]

I'm really impressed with the new Flickr. I have a ton of photos on picasa and now that they did the whole google + thing it sucks a lot.

[chrism]

Awesome!

A post about about how to sell a car on the internet degrades to a photo posting website debate.

[garageboy]

Awesome!

A post about about how to sell a car on the internet degrades to a photo posting website debate.

Debate? What debate? Just some thoughtful comments by some list members.

And since posting photos is part of selling a car, why would anyone NOT welcome it? Odd...

.steve.

[canyon climber]

Here's a worthy ad!

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/wst/ct ... 45836.html

[Adam W in MN]

Bump, new candidate for worst car for sale ad ever. I'm not a religious man either but using JC like that in the thread title is pretty tasteless.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh ... 6k-gtfo%29

Edit: When was the last time you saw a picture thread warn not to click with a 56k modem? I had to triple-check the posting date to make sure I wasn't viewing an ad from 2004.

[garageboy]

You know, maybe it's all the sarcastaball I've been playing lately.... but I think this note deserves a bump.

I'm a damned good writer!