Looks like Cartech is revamping their turbo kits for the M30
http://www.cartech.net/bmwm30turbo.htm
Probably still based on their 1980s tech though.
Cartech wants a piece of the pie
Yes, it's a direct attack on TCD by Preston because we decided to make our own manifolds after Cartech couldn't provide a decent manifold to us.
Cartech had no M30 manifolds and no pattern until we provided them with a manifold to remake the pattern. The agreement was that the pattern was the property of both TCD and Cartech. When we had problems with Cartech delivering very poor quality manifolds followed by a "We're your only game" attitude from Preston we decided to go it on our own, modifying/improving the design. This was akin to pulling Preston's passifier out of his yap and now he's throwing a tantrum.
He shipped to us an M20 manifold that had been machined through, yes, two holes, and then welded and insisted that it was to be charged "as new" because it was an "industry standard" repair. I also spent several hours grinding/machining material off of that manifold so it actually fit on the engine. The machining on the manifolds appeared to have been done by an rabid beaver and one M30 manifold was completely blocked by flash. We recieved tons of attitude about our concerns and were finally challenged by Preston to try to do any better...
We did.
BTW, he has zero kits and has promissed to give away a few promotional kits ... without turbos... after he got crap for offering a "kit" without a turbo for $ He also directly coppied text from the TCD website for their site... didn't even change the font.
[Edit by Sweeney on [TIME]1119971263[/TIME]]
[Edit by Sweeney on [TIME]1119984457[/TIME]]
Cartech had no M30 manifolds and no pattern until we provided them with a manifold to remake the pattern. The agreement was that the pattern was the property of both TCD and Cartech. When we had problems with Cartech delivering very poor quality manifolds followed by a "We're your only game" attitude from Preston we decided to go it on our own, modifying/improving the design. This was akin to pulling Preston's passifier out of his yap and now he's throwing a tantrum.
He shipped to us an M20 manifold that had been machined through, yes, two holes, and then welded and insisted that it was to be charged "as new" because it was an "industry standard" repair. I also spent several hours grinding/machining material off of that manifold so it actually fit on the engine. The machining on the manifolds appeared to have been done by an rabid beaver and one M30 manifold was completely blocked by flash. We recieved tons of attitude about our concerns and were finally challenged by Preston to try to do any better...
We did.
BTW, he has zero kits and has promissed to give away a few promotional kits ... without turbos... after he got crap for offering a "kit" without a turbo for $ He also directly coppied text from the TCD website for their site... didn't even change the font.
[Edit by Sweeney on [TIME]1119971263[/TIME]]
[Edit by Sweeney on [TIME]1119984457[/TIME]]
Y'know, I looked at their site and information earlier and got kind of excited because the kit sounded identical to the TCD kit. I wondered if Todd had struck a deal for Cartech to re-sell TCD stuff under the Cartech label. I guess not. 
Shame on Cartech for such arrogance and shady business practices.
Jeremy
Shame on Cartech for such arrogance and shady business practices.
Jeremy
That sucks. Shows the business ethic that they have. Good for TCD for doing them one better.
Even for a "free" kit I would be wary for the reasons you had cited. I can imagine: "Yeah its free, but you have to machine the manifold because of casting variances. You also have to double up those exhaust gaskets because it will not seal with just one. They are provided in the kit along with the complimentary four inch grinding disc."
Even for a "free" kit I would be wary for the reasons you had cited. I can imagine: "Yeah its free, but you have to machine the manifold because of casting variances. You also have to double up those exhaust gaskets because it will not seal with just one. They are provided in the kit along with the complimentary four inch grinding disc."
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Mike-TurboE24
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
The manifold they show in the add is the same M20 manifold that I had to grind a bunch of iron from to fit the 325... more grinding is required to fit it to the M30 . The intercooler piping and intercooler are not for an M30 or M20 powered car. Looks like they stole pictures from themselves (later model kit) for those.
Oh yeah, the "proper thermal coating" vaporized in about a week after we installed the manifold.
%)
[Edit by Sweeney on [TIME]1119990973[/TIME]]
Oh yeah, the "proper thermal coating" vaporized in about a week after we installed the manifold.
%)
[Edit by Sweeney on [TIME]1119990973[/TIME]]
todd and sweeney have dealt with cartech more than i have but from my very limited contact with preston, he is a real assbag. go over to bimmerforums and do a search for some of his posts to get a feel for the guy. he posted a number of times which were direct personal and business attacks on todd the tcd name.
i talked with a guy this weekend who contacted cartech and he said that they were looking to price them at around 5K including everything needed to turbo the car. I told him about the TCD kit and he was much more interested in it cause of the price. Hope he goes for your kit todd. Cartech said it wont be out for a while either. They are still in the design stages.
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Mike-TurboE24
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
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rundatrack
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
has been running like a charm, got some new wires and a new cap and rotor from todd as well as a msd blaster 2 coil, car ran much better, now it is over at ics getting the intercooler installed and the tec3r installed and tuned. when i go pick the car up in a few weeks i will pm you, maybe you can come down and take a ride!
I don't know anything about it, but it seems like this would be a good time to have documentation proving your kit is yours, and not a rip-off of Cartech's. Also something in writing saying the manifold pattern is shared. Seems like the first stage would be to set up a competing kit, the second would be to take you to court.
I'm definitely on TCD's side, just hijacking the thread.
Dan
I'm definitely on TCD's side, just hijacking the thread.
Dan
[QUOTE="euro5"]Take it from me (I know) - Competition is GOOD for business - IF Cartech can get a CARB sticker in California that would OPEN up a whole new market. Best of luck to whoever comes out on top. 
[/QUOTE]
Dont hold your breath, it wont happen, no one will put that kind of money up front for a system that goes into a 20yr old car. I guess that there is maybe a maket of 25 kits tops for the CA market over 2-4yrs. You'd have to sell 50 kits just to maybe break even on the CARB certification ~0 ~0 ~0 ~0 ~0 ~0
RussC
[/QUOTE]Dont hold your breath, it wont happen, no one will put that kind of money up front for a system that goes into a 20yr old car. I guess that there is maybe a maket of 25 kits tops for the CA market over 2-4yrs. You'd have to sell 50 kits just to maybe break even on the CARB certification ~0 ~0 ~0 ~0 ~0 ~0
RussC
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Guest
[QUOTE="gol10dr1"]todd and sweeney have dealt with cartech more than i have but from my very limited contact with preston, he is a real assbag. go over to bimmerforums and do a search for some of his posts to get a feel for the guy. he posted a number of times which were direct personal and business attacks on todd the tcd name.[/QUOTE]
If I was in Todd's shoes I wouldn't give a rat's ass what Preston says over on Bimmerforums, simply because it's a black hole. Did you ever notice that the Bimmerforums site lumps all the 5ers together and that most of the threads deal with E34 and E39.
Hardcore E28 guys hangout here and the E12 guys have Firstfives.org, so what Preston states only opens himself up to legal action if Todd wants to persue it.
Rich
P.S. Todd should consider sending the specific links to Corkey Bell privately and see what Corkey has to say about it.
[Edit by Rich Euro M5 on [TIME]1120170381[/TIME]]
If I was in Todd's shoes I wouldn't give a rat's ass what Preston says over on Bimmerforums, simply because it's a black hole. Did you ever notice that the Bimmerforums site lumps all the 5ers together and that most of the threads deal with E34 and E39.
Hardcore E28 guys hangout here and the E12 guys have Firstfives.org, so what Preston states only opens himself up to legal action if Todd wants to persue it.
Rich
P.S. Todd should consider sending the specific links to Corkey Bell privately and see what Corkey has to say about it.
[Edit by Rich Euro M5 on [TIME]1120170381[/TIME]]
the posts that preston has made on bimmerforums have been in the forced induction section and they have been 100% public slander. the thing is, the guys in the fi section are not morons. a lot of them know their stuff and are not newbs to the game. go check out the posts and you will see what i am talking about
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rundatrack
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
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bahnstormer
- Posts: 212
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
Competition is good.. sure. But this is the kind of thing that REALLY pisses me off.
On the one side, you have the TCD team, who put it out there, saw a market, put all the work in, then made a viable product of it.. and for that I can't give them enough kudos.
Then you have these Cartech guys, who decided there wasn't any market for these old M30 type guys... abandoned us, and now they've seen TCD make a go of it, they want some of the action again. You know what? FUCK THEM.
The TCD folks were smart enough to see a market oppotunity others had abandoned.. and damn well done!
I don't care if the TCD kit is $1000 more when it comes time to buy mine, I'm going with TCD. I'm all fine with competition, but this "me too" attitude really pisses me off - You know what? If you want to compete with TCD, fine. Come up with your own idea, use a different turbo, or an SC instead... or SOMETHING! Add some innovation to the sum of E28 knowledge!
There's nothing that pisses me off more than someone who sits back and watches someone else do all the hard R&D and watches someone else put their neck on the line, then decides when the other parties' idea is successful "Hey... maybe I can make a buck off his hard work".
In my opinion, we as an E28 community should be 100% behind TCD, competition or not.
If any of the Cartech guys dare set foot on mye28 I can only guarantee rabid hostility from my direction. Should I repeat myself again? FUCK THEM.
On the one side, you have the TCD team, who put it out there, saw a market, put all the work in, then made a viable product of it.. and for that I can't give them enough kudos.
Then you have these Cartech guys, who decided there wasn't any market for these old M30 type guys... abandoned us, and now they've seen TCD make a go of it, they want some of the action again. You know what? FUCK THEM.
The TCD folks were smart enough to see a market oppotunity others had abandoned.. and damn well done!
I don't care if the TCD kit is $1000 more when it comes time to buy mine, I'm going with TCD. I'm all fine with competition, but this "me too" attitude really pisses me off - You know what? If you want to compete with TCD, fine. Come up with your own idea, use a different turbo, or an SC instead... or SOMETHING! Add some innovation to the sum of E28 knowledge!
There's nothing that pisses me off more than someone who sits back and watches someone else do all the hard R&D and watches someone else put their neck on the line, then decides when the other parties' idea is successful "Hey... maybe I can make a buck off his hard work".
In my opinion, we as an E28 community should be 100% behind TCD, competition or not.
If any of the Cartech guys dare set foot on mye28 I can only guarantee rabid hostility from my direction. Should I repeat myself again? FUCK THEM.
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Cartech Preston
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
Todd called us and inquired about obtaining our manifolds for use in a venture that he and John were starting in order to make turbo kits for older BMWs. Later we found out that he was merely copying our tubing designs as well. Todd was told the M30 manifold pattern was damaged in a foundry fire. The M20 and M10 patterns were still in our possession and would be happy to supply them.
They then asked us if CARTECH would be willing to front the development expense to resurect the M30 manifold and give them an exclusive on all the old BMW manifolds. We did agree that we would give TCD an exclusive on the M30 manifold only if they would agree to buy 5 at a time, supply a sample and agree not to copy our design. Todd agreed to these terms. We felt that was fair as well. Todd asked us to resolve some problems that all knew existed with the original manifold. We did this and designed the changes.
We remade the pattern and all of the tooling for the M30 manifold. When the manifold was sent to Todd for approval. He said it was incorrect. He sent us the manifold off of his car and it was different (Corky made more than one version). Todd demanded that CARTECH front the development cost to make a second M30 manifold like the one on his car (including the changes) despite the fact that he supplied the sample and did not bother to compare the two. We agreed to do this if he would order 10 at a time in the future. TCD had us resurect these manifolds at considerable cost on the promise that they would not copy the design and would buy from us. It is expensive to create tooling for these manifolds and CARTECH did it twice to make Todd and John happy. Now he has gone out and taken OUR revised design and gotten his own patterns behind our backs. I'll let you all judge the ethics of that.
Bottom line is, any M30 manifold sold to TCD was in perfect condition, as they all came from the new foundry. Nobody has challeneged TCD to do anything. Whatever they have done, they have done completely on their own volition. Copying our kit was solely their choice. People can judge that for themselves.
Regards,
Preston
CarTech Systems
[Edit by Cartech Preston on [TIME]1120681269[/TIME]]
They then asked us if CARTECH would be willing to front the development expense to resurect the M30 manifold and give them an exclusive on all the old BMW manifolds. We did agree that we would give TCD an exclusive on the M30 manifold only if they would agree to buy 5 at a time, supply a sample and agree not to copy our design. Todd agreed to these terms. We felt that was fair as well. Todd asked us to resolve some problems that all knew existed with the original manifold. We did this and designed the changes.
We remade the pattern and all of the tooling for the M30 manifold. When the manifold was sent to Todd for approval. He said it was incorrect. He sent us the manifold off of his car and it was different (Corky made more than one version). Todd demanded that CARTECH front the development cost to make a second M30 manifold like the one on his car (including the changes) despite the fact that he supplied the sample and did not bother to compare the two. We agreed to do this if he would order 10 at a time in the future. TCD had us resurect these manifolds at considerable cost on the promise that they would not copy the design and would buy from us. It is expensive to create tooling for these manifolds and CARTECH did it twice to make Todd and John happy. Now he has gone out and taken OUR revised design and gotten his own patterns behind our backs. I'll let you all judge the ethics of that.
Nobody is attacking anyone. John, most people who have followed the turbo BMW market know about our kit. We provided you 10 perfect manifolds that you ordered. You certainly felt they were decent enough to sell them to your first 10 cusotmers and make a direct copy of it. If you can show me proof that the ownership of the pattern we paid to produce would be joint then I will retract my statment. No such deal ever existed and you know it. We paid for two manifold developments to please you. You did not spend one dime on those projects, and you do not own any portion of it.Sweeney wrote:Yes, it's a direct attack on TCD by Preston because we decided to make our own manifolds after Cartech couldn't provide a decent manifold to us.
Cartech had no M30 manifolds and no pattern until we provided them with a manifold to remake the pattern. The agreement was that the pattern was the property of both TCD and Cartech.
Lets tell the whole truth John. The foundry we were using when Todd first called us went out of business and some M10 and M20 manifolds we obtained from them were not the usual quality. Most were fixable and a couple were not. We offered the repairable manifolds to Todd at cost. He felt he could use them and he did. Todd was told why the manifolds were priced at cost; becasue they were blemished. Todd and John were not charged full price for any blem manifolds. Todd and John did not change anything from our original M30 design. This may not be true of the M20 design, I have not seen their M20 manifold and cannot comment one way or the other.When we had problems with Cartech delivering very poor quality manifolds followed by a "We're your only game" attitude from Preston we decided to go it on our own, modifying/improving the design. This was akin to pulling Preston's passifier out of his yap and now he's throwing a tantrum.
He shipped to us an M20 manifold that had been machined through, yes, two holes, and then welded and insisted that it was to be charged "as new" because it was an "industry standard" repair. I also spent several hours grinding/machining material off of that manifold so it actually fit on the engine. The machining on the manifolds appeared to have been done by an rabid beaver and one M30 manifold was completely blocked by flash. We recieved tons of attitude about our concerns and were finally challenged by Preston to try to do any better...
We did.
Bottom line is, any M30 manifold sold to TCD was in perfect condition, as they all came from the new foundry. Nobody has challeneged TCD to do anything. Whatever they have done, they have done completely on their own volition. Copying our kit was solely their choice. People can judge that for themselves.
Once again, this is not true. Our promotion has been the same since we came out with it in May. The promotion was always to offer a few kits without turbos. We have never asked for $ for a promotional kit. If you can prove otherwise, feel free to do so. The font on our website is exactly the same as the rest. The content came from a combination of our E36 page and our SN95 page.BTW, he has zero kits and has promissed to give away a few promotional kits ... without turbos... after he got crap for offering a "kit" without a turbo for $ He also directly coppied text from the TCD website for their site... didn't even change the font.
Regards,
Preston
CarTech Systems
[Edit by Cartech Preston on [TIME]1120681269[/TIME]]
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Cartech Preston
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
[QUOTE="russc"]Umm,
Looks like they see that TCD has been having "some success" with their kit, and want to get back into the game. Looks like there initially going with a A/A IC. At least they went the right way with the core(if the photo can be believed).
RussC[/QUOTE]
No, our intercooler will be based on our original design.
Preston
Looks like they see that TCD has been having "some success" with their kit, and want to get back into the game. Looks like there initially going with a A/A IC. At least they went the right way with the core(if the photo can be believed).
RussC[/QUOTE]
No, our intercooler will be based on our original design.
Preston
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Cartech Preston
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
[QUOTE="gol10dr1"]todd and sweeney have dealt with cartech more than i have but from my very limited contact with preston, he is a real assbag. go over to bimmerforums and do a search for some of his posts to get a feel for the guy. he posted a number of times which were direct personal and business attacks on todd the tcd name.[/QUOTE]
You are entitled to your opinion, as we all are but people should know if there is more than one side to a story. I guess you donot feel that way.
Preston
You are entitled to your opinion, as we all are but people should know if there is more than one side to a story. I guess you donot feel that way.
Preston
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Cartech Preston
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
[QUOTE="Sweeney"]Funny thing is, Cartech, well Preston, has been claiming that we flat out copied their kit yet He also states that their kit isn't available yet and won't be for some time because it's under development... interesting....[/QUOTE]
The logic is simple John. Some of our tooling was damaged during two separate moves. We can recreate some tooling from old drawings and some has to be recreated on the car. Kinda like you did.
Preston
The logic is simple John. Some of our tooling was damaged during two separate moves. We can recreate some tooling from old drawings and some has to be recreated on the car. Kinda like you did.
Preston