Cartech wants a piece of the pie

[Cartech Preston]

Competition is good.. sure. But this is the kind of thing that REALLY pisses me off.

On the one side, you have the TCD team, who put it out there, saw a market, put all the work in, then made a viable product of it.. and for that I can't give them enough kudos.

Then you have these Cartech guys, who decided there wasn't any market for these old M30 type guys... abandoned us, and now they've seen TCD make a go of it, they want some of the action again. You know what? FUCK THEM.

That's not what happened, guys. As to why Corky never remade the damaged tooling, I cannot say. He is his own counsel on that. Nobody intentionally abandoned anybody.

The TCD folks were smart enough to see a market oppotunity others had abandoned.. and damn well done!

I don't care if the TCD kit is $1000 more when it comes time to buy mine, I'm going with TCD. I'm all fine with competition, but this "me too" attitude really pisses me off - You know what? If you want to compete with TCD, fine. Come up with your own idea, use a different turbo, or an SC instead... or SOMETHING! Add some innovation to the sum of E28 knowledge!

I can understand you exercising your right to choose a vendor. That's what we have the freedom to do. All we are doing is bringing a kit back that we used to produce. I do not see anything wrong with that. We are going to make some improvements as well but most of the kit will be identical to what we used to produce.

There's nothing that pisses me off more than someone who sits back and watches someone else do all the hard R&D and watches someone else put their neck on the line, then decides when the other parties' idea is successful "Hey... maybe I can make a buck off his hard work".

In my opinion, we as an E28 community should be 100% behind TCD, competition or not.

If any of the Cartech guys dare set foot on mye28 I can only guarantee rabid hostility from my direction. Should I repeat myself again? FUCK THEM.

I am not sure what R&D you think they did but you may be surprised to find out the answer. If we are willing to do a promotion, I really do not think we are in this to make money. I think one poster already put it best. The pure economics are not there. I am sorry you feel the way you do and that you have already decided to be hostile. But it is a free country and you can do whatever you like.

Regards,

Preston

[russc]

[QUOTE="russc"]Umm,
Looks like they see that TCD has been having "some success" with their kit, and want to get back into the game. Looks like there initially going with a A/A IC. At least they went the right way with the core(if the photo can be believed).

RussC[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="Cartech Preston"]No, our intercooler will be based on our original design.

Preston[/QUOTE]

That would be the W/A design then?

RussC



[Edit by russc on [TIME]1120680750[/TIME]]

[Cartech Preston]

[QUOTE="russc"]That would be the W/A design then?

RussC[/QUOTE]

Yes, that's correct. I have had some requests for an air-air project and we may be working on that.

Preston

[rundatrack]

Well I must say that preston hasnt come with personal attacks...He seems to be stating his opinion...Whether it is fact or not is between TCD and him..I do like that he isnt carrying on and name-calling...

I hope both of these vendors have the best of luck in the future...I wish bad on no one....

I am mearly a e28 owner that has to live through you guys regarding turboing. So all I am saying is that both companies have done a great thing for the e28 community...Cartech previously and TCD now...

Without the old Cartech systems I dont know maybe there wouldnt be such interest because they helped create some of the first kits for the m30

Without TCD I feel that many people would not understand the power that they can get from this magnificent m30 motor.I have spoken to todd on the phone just inquiring about the system and he was nothing but a gentlemen...He has always been there to answer any...I mean the smallest of questions. Has enriched this board with his great wisdom of these cars

Like I said before I wish the both of ya the best of luck...

[T_C_D]

Preston,

I am going to pull your emails and invoices. Scan them in and write a book about our history but until then I just have a few things to say.

Please go and produce these kits. Actually have them available for sale. Do it better than us and sell it for less. Until then just STFU and leave us alone.

Todd

[Azure]

Much of what I'd said was based on the idea you were/are basically going to release the exact same thing that TCD releases, which, again, I consider kinda shady to want back into the action after you've seen someone else get some success with it... but that's my opinion. - This statement was based on the listing on the Cartech website which as others pointed out, is stunningly similar to the TCD website.

That said, again, as I'd mentioned, if you're actually going to put some R&D and effort into the concept and make improvements to the design or do something different (as I'd put it: add something to sum of E28 knowledge), then, granted, I can't tell you you'll get my business, but I do respect that.

What I don't want to see is the same ol thing rehashed just to try to displace the TCD folks from the market.

Lastly, I appreciate the tone of your reply, I probably would have chewed me out.

[Yellow2]

I am going to pull your emails and invoices. Scan them in and write a book about our history but until then I just have a few things to say.

WIll these books be available for sale in the future?
Just playin. Hope it all gets worked out.

[Edit by Yellow on [TIME]1120684871[/TIME]]

[Cartech Preston]

[QUOTE="TCD"]Preston,

I am going to pull your emails and invoices. Scan them in and write a book about our history but until then I just have a few things to say.

Please go and produce these kits. Actually have them available for sale. Do it better than us and sell it for less. Until then just STFU and leave us alone.

Todd[/QUOTE]

I am fine with a "book" so long as it is truthful. We can do the same thing if necessary.

The only thing I can say to your last paragraph is... We are. We will. We let the customers decide. We are not doing anything to you. If you want people to believe something about us, then we are likely to tell our side of it.

Regards,

Preston

[T_C_D]

Preston,

I changed my mind. I am not wasting any more time on you. I just want to thank you for being so arrogant as to force us to do everything ourselves. You should thank us for resurrecting a dead market that you abandoned in the early 90s.

Todd

[Cartech Preston]

Much of what I'd said was based on the idea you were/are basically going to release the exact same thing that TCD releases, which, again, I consider kinda shady to want back into the action after you've seen someone else get some success with it... but that's my opinion. - This statement was based on the listing on the Cartech website which as others pointed out, is stunningly similar to the TCD website.

Glen, I understand what you are saying. I know for myself where our kit came from and have the original drawings to show. I believe we have every right to produce our original kit at any point. CarTech's original design was pretty good and had some drawbacks that we do not have to live with today. We will make improvement in areas where we are no longer limited by time and technology.

That said, again, as I'd mentioned, if you're actually going to put some R&D and effort into the concept and make improvements to the design or do something different (as I'd put it: add something to sum of E28 knowledge), then, granted, I can't tell you you'll get my business, but I do respect that. What I don't want to see is the same ol thing rehashed just to try to displace the TCD folks from the market.

There will be some improvements but the kit will be essentially CarTech's original kit. In other words, if we did it well the first time, we are not going to change it just to act like we are adding something valuable. I do not think that method makes sense. You may not agree but that's how I see it.

Regards,

Preston

[Edit by Cartech Preston on [TIME]1120686730[/TIME]]


[Edit by Cartech Preston on [TIME]1120686838[/TIME]]

[Damon in STL]

I'm confused. Is a manifold the same as complete kit?

Damon in STL

[Boru]

Preston, Yes, having a pattern and tooling produced is expensive, an expense we chose to avoid by going to Cartech in the first place. You did not provide the product or customer support that we sought, you were beligerant when confronted with inquiries about defective or poorly produced product calling Todd nothing but a "stay at home dad", "what do you know about making manifolds", etc. You also challenged us to try to do it better. We decided that if there was to be a kit available that we had to incure the expense to make our own manifolds. No, they are not copies of the Cartech manifold. Yes, they patterned after Corky's design just as you state that your manifolds are patterned after the Offenhouser design. The cylinder head dictates the design of the flange area, the chosen turbo dictates that area of the manifold. You can put the turbo low and in back or forward and up high as the two most logical places. The forward position leaves no room for the AFM, etc. The position of the turbo dictates the layout of the plumbing relative to the engine bay configuration. I made the prototype parts with nothing in front of me to "copy".
Your claim that we copied the Cartech kit is akin to stating that Michelin copied Goodyear because they also made their tires round, that Borla copied Gibson because their Jeep 4 liter headers have the same number of primary tubes.
Simply put, you could not or would not deliver and you forced our hand. You dropped the ball.
As for my statement about you not having a kit available, that came from a potential customer of yours who inquired about them and that was the answer they got from Cartech, hear say?... perhaps.
Promissing to not "copy" the manifold... that was a promiss to not copy the M20, which we didn't. On another board you stated that you had seen the M20 manifold. It's on our site which you have obviously been. You have not seen one of our M30 manifolds yet you claim that it is adirect copy of Cartech's.
There would be no M30 or M20 "Kit" at present if we had not tried to produce one.
So, build your kit and stop crying over spilled milk... milk that you spilled. As the saying goes, when you point your finger, you've got three more pointing back at you.

[Damon in STL]

Ah....I'm starting to get it. After reading the posts again, here's what I've deduced.

Turbocharging Dynamics was going to buy manifolds through Cartech and provide a complete kit for re-sale Together they worked out a deal to puchase a set number of manifolds. At that time Cartech did not offer a kit (???). Cartech sub-contracted a foundary to produce the manifolds. There was a problem with the quality of the manifolds from the foundary. Turbocharging Dynamics would not accept the lower quality manifolds. Turbocharging Dynamics and Cartech could not come to an acceptable agreement on the manifolds (was there a contract of any sort?). Turbocharging Dynamics then chose to produce their own manifold. Turbocharging Dynamics then goes on to sell manifolds and complete kits. Later, Cartech decides to sell complete kits (again).

If that account is correct, if I was Preston, I'd be pissed too. Not at Turbocharging Dynamics, but, with the foundary. I'm guessing he probably got stuck with a bunch of sub-par quality manifolds.

Damon in STL

[Cartech Preston]

I made the prototype parts with nothing in front of me to "copy".

You made it off of a CarTech kit installed on Todd's car. You sent one of our manifolds to a pattern maker to copy. So, I do not agree with your statment.

Your claim that we copied the Cartech kit is akin to stating that Michelin copied Goodyear because they also made their tires round, that Borla copied Gibson because their Jeep 4 liter headers have the same number of primary tubes.
Simply put, you could not or would not deliver and you forced our hand. You dropped the ball.

Not at all. There are several significant design changes you could have made to the kit but chose not to. I am not making the claim because you have a 6cyl BMW kit. I am making it for the above reasons. I simply do not agree that paying to resurect two of our manifolds for you "drops the ball" or "forces your hand". But I cannot control how you decide to do things.

Promissing to not "copy" the manifold... that was a promiss to not copy the M20, which we didn't. On another board you stated that you had seen the M20 manifold. It's on our site which you have obviously been. You have not seen one of our M30 manifolds yet you claim that it is adirect copy of Cartech's.

I have not seen your M20 manifold. I saw the M30 manifold on a Bimmerforums thread where Todd posted picture of it. It is still there if you want proof. The agreement was about the M30 manifold. We did not have an agreement of any kind about the M10 or M20. You and Todd wanted an exclusive on those parts which we were not willing to give. Because of your efforts it seemed fair to give you an exclusive distribution right to the M30 as a part of the deal.

Regards,

Preston

[Cartech Preston]

Turbocharging Dynamics was going to buy manifolds through Cartech and provide a complete kit for re-sale Together they worked out a deal to puchase a set number of manifolds. At that time Cartech did not offer a kit (???).

True.

Cartech sub-contracted a foundary to produce the manifolds. There was a problem with the quality of the manifolds from the foundary. Turbocharging Dynamics would not accept the lower quality manifolds. Turbocharging Dynamics and Cartech could not come to an acceptable agreement on the manifolds (was there a contract of any sort?).

Mostly true. Foundries do not own parts (usually), they simply cast them. Ours went out of business and we moved patterns to a new foundry. The last batch from the old foundry were not good. There was no recourse against a bankrupt foundry. The manifolds from the new foundry were fine.

Turbocharging Dynamics then chose to produce their own manifold. Turbocharging Dynamics then goes on to sell manifolds and complete kits. Later, Cartech decides to sell complete kits (again).

I think that's accurate but I have some detail differences which I do not think you all want me to rehash.

Regards,

Preston

[T_C_D]

Damon,

We met our agreement with Cartech. We purchased 10 manifolds. After we met our obligation we decided to do business with others.

Todd

[T_C_D]

Cartech Manifold



Preston, you surely recognize that our manifold does NOT have that bottleneck after #4.


[Edit by TCD on [TIME]1120700122[/TIME]]

[Boru]

Preston, I forgot you were looking over my shoulder when I was making the prototype parts.
Design improvements WERE made. This is why the components of our kit do not resemble the old Cartech parts... smoother bends, easier transitions, a much improved intercooler. Many many hours of time were put into our kit. We spent many hours with the pattern maker improving the design of the manifold. We do not use an "I like this machine shop 'cause they're cheap" (Your words) facility for our machining. Ours has the latest ISO certification.
You don't agree with my comments? I'm pretty sure you won't agree with anything that shows you to be wrong.
Your arrogance lost you our business.


[Edit by Sweeney on [TIME]1120697608[/TIME]]

[Cartech Preston]

[QUOTE="TCD"]Preston, you surely recognize that our manifold does NOT have that bottleneck after #4. [/QUOTE]

Todd, since you have purchased all BMW manifolds that we make, you realize that you are comparing your M30 manifold copy to our M20 manifold. Not sure why anyone would think that two different applications would be the same.

Preston



[Edit by Cartech Preston on [TIME]1120699465[/TIME]]

[Cartech Preston]

[QUOTE="Sweeney"]Preston, I forgot you were looking over my shoulder when I was making the prototype parts.
Design improvements WERE made. This is why the components of our kit do not resemble the old Cartech parts... smoother bends, easier transitions, a much improved intercooler. Many many hours of time were put into our kit. We spent many hours with the pattern maker improving the design of the manifold. We do not use an "I like this machine shop 'cause they're cheap" (Your words) facility for our machining. Ours has the latest ISO certification.
You don't agree with my comments? I'm pretty sure you won't agree with anything that shows you to be wrong.
Your arrogance lost you our business.[/QUOTE]

I based my statements on what Todd told me and what your pictures show. That's why I do not agree. Right, wrong or indifferent. I am not sure why you want to continue to make up stuff about us but you certainly did not complain about the machining of the M30 manifolds you purchased. I am pretty sure you would have complained if there was an issue. I simply do not agree with you because I know you are not telling the truth about us.

Preston



[Edit by Cartech Preston on [TIME]1120699401[/TIME]]

[T_C_D]

[QUOTE="Cartech Preston"]Todd, since you have purchased all BMW manifolds that we make, you realize that you are comparing your M30 manifold copy to our M20 manifold. Not sure why anyone would think that two different applications would be the same.

Preston

[Edit by Cartech Preston on [TIME]1120699465[/TIME]][/QUOTE]

That's our m20 manifold pattern.

[T_C_D]

Preston,

Let's agree to disagree. Stop whining and go produce a kit. Competition is good for the consumers. Look at how your M3 turbo kit has dropped several thousand dollars since new competitors have entered the market.

Todd

[Cartech Preston]

[QUOTE="TCD"]That's our m20 manifold pattern. [/QUOTE]

Great, John already said you did not copy our M20 manifold, so what is your point? I said I did not know one way or the other.

Preston

[Ed]

This gets old after a while.

Ed

[Damon in STL]

Guys,

From an outsiders perspective. Get rid of the personal attacks. Base your comments on fact. There will always be two sides to every story, as everyone has a different perspective of events. Try to place yourselves in each others shoes and see their point of veiw.

The question should be "Are you helping or hurting yourselves by continueing this?".

Damon in STL

PS... I'm a consulting engineer who has had to mediate between Owners and Contractors on many occasions. And, often it is a third-party sub-contractor who is the source of all the conflict.



[Edit by Damon in STL on [TIME]1120701673[/TIME]]

[T_C_D]

[QUOTE="Damon in STL"]Guys,

From an outsiders perspective. Get rid of the personal attacks. Base your comments on fact. There will always be two sides to every story, as everyone has a different perspective of events. Try to place yourselves in each others shoes and see their point of veiw.

The question should be "Are you helping or hurting yourselves by continueing this?".

Damon in STL

PS... I'm a consulting engineer who has had to mediate between Owners and Contractors on many occasions. And, usually it is a third-party sub-contractor who is the source of all the conflict.

[Edit by Damon in STL on [TIME]1120701574[/TIME]][/QUOTE]

Damon,

You know me. You know that this has motivated me. Maybe we will do that M3 turbo kit after all. Want to send me yours?

Todd

[Damon in STL]

LOL...I can't be bought! I've chosen to stay neutral on this subject.

Okay, so I have had visions of a turbo s14 and have a spare manifold that could be used as a start and end point template for a possible turbo application. Maybe I could get a bidding war going....LOL

Preston, any plans for a e30 M3 turbo kit?

Damon in STL

......trying not to get sucked (edit:any further) into this black hole!



[Edit by Damon in STL on [TIME]1120704778[/TIME]]

[T_C_D]

[QUOTE="Damon in STL"]LOL...I can't be bought! I've chosen to stay neutral on this subject.

Okay, so I have had visions of a turbo s14 and have a spare manifold that could be used as a start and end point template for a possible turbo application. Maybe I could get a bidding war going....LOL

Preston, any plans for a e30 M3 turbo kit?

Damon in STL

......trying not to get sucked (edit:any further) into this black hole!

[Edit by Damon in STL on [TIME]1120704778[/TIME]][/QUOTE]

Geez. Where's the loyalty?
Todd

[bahnstormer]

so preston do u have an ETA on the kits? christmas 05?
when do u think u'll be ready to sell?

[Damon in STL]

Quote:

Originally posted by Damon in STL
Turbocharging Dynamics was going to buy manifolds through Cartech and provide a complete kit for re-sale Together they worked out a deal to puchase a set number of manifolds. At that time Cartech did not offer a kit (???).


True.

Quote:

Cartech sub-contracted a foundary to produce the manifolds. There was a problem with the quality of the manifolds from the foundary. Turbocharging Dynamics would not accept the lower quality manifolds. Turbocharging Dynamics and Cartech could not come to an acceptable agreement on the manifolds (was there a contract of any sort?).


Mostly true. Foundries do not own parts (usually), they simply cast them. Ours went out of business and we moved patterns to a new foundry. The last batch from the old foundry were not good. There was no recourse against a bankrupt foundry. The manifolds from the new foundry were fine.

Quote:

Turbocharging Dynamics then chose to produce their own manifold. Turbocharging Dynamics then goes on to sell manifolds and complete kits. Later, Cartech decides to sell complete kits (again).


I think that's accurate but I have some detail differences which I do not think you all want me to rehash.

Regards,

Preston

Todd,

There is no lack of loyalty. Re-read the above. I would not have taken the time to figure out this puzzle if I did not support your efforts and John's efforts to bring a "dead" kit to market.

The only outstanding issue was (from how I read it) if your manifold design and Cartech's design are the same. From your pics, it appears the two are different. So, this should be a done deal.

Preston is pissed since he got F'd by the foundary. He tried to re-coop his losses through you and John. You and John said no and did your own thing. And, then the name calling began.

From the "facts" it looks like you and John are the ones in the right here. So, I support you guys on this issue. As far as the name calling and personal attacks go, I can't support anyone on that side.

Damon in STL

PS....I'll box up the s14 manifold for shipping....