I have a friend that has some knowledge of turbos and I wanted to basically know if anyone would verify the following statement
As far as flanges go, it's just a matter of how the turbo bolts up to the manifold. There are many different types of turbo housings, impellers, compressors and wheels, the combinations are almost endless. However, there are a finite number of common flanges that are used, and they vary based on the original manufacturer of the turbo.
Borg Warner (KKK turbos) has their own flange, Mitsubishi/IHI uses one of their own, and Garrett has two flanges that are the most commonly used in both OEM and aftermarket applications, and you've probably heard it before: T3 and T4. A T3 flange and a T4 flange are, in most non-lunacy applications, no beneift over one another, they usually refer to what exhaust housing you use. Thus, when you hear of a T3/T4 turbo, that means it uses a T3 flanged turbo with a T3 compressor wheel and a T4 compressor section. However, many experts would still consider this turbo a T3, because of the flange and the compressor. The flange is just how one item mates to the other. What I reccomend you do is to give a high end turbo builder a call and tell him what you need. Your original turbo is a KKK K-27 and the manifold is flanged as such (i'm not sure if there are variations within KKK flanges),
You would like to use garrett based housings, wheels and center sections, however, you want to use a K-27 flange. This shouldn't be a problem for them, because flanges frequently need to be changed on turbos, even on turbos that are supposedly within the same family (like there's the T3 on center flange, T3 tangental flange, T3 ford flange, T3 nissan flange, etc, etc). Once you've established that they can do that, it's about figuring out what your budget is. Don't cheap out on a turbo, it, along with the engine management, is the biggest factor in how your car behaves and performs. For your application, if you're not looking to piss money away, I would probably want to use either a T61 or a T60-1 turbo. Both flow enough for over 500hp (T61 flows enough for 700hp, T60-1 is about 600hp). If the builder can incorporate ball bearings, as long as the cost isnt heinous, I would bite. It means that you get boost a minimum of 500-1000 RPM sooner than with journal bearings. This is HUGE. I drove a turbo M3 that went from a journal bearing T61 to a Garrett GT35R (really new design housing (T3 flange) lubrication and cooling system, compressor wheel designs, and most importantly it has dual ball bearings).
On the dyno, the GT35R only made 15hp more than the T61, most likely because the GT35R is more efficient than the T61. However, that didn't matter. The car started building boost at 2200 RPM and was making full boost by 3400 RPM...over 1,000 RPM differences in both, and it held the power all the way to redline. That's a HUGE difference behind the wheel, it feels like you gained an extra 70hp which, for function's sake, might as well have happened. In terms of racing, having power that much lower will translate into much more consistant victories, simply put. Again, the T61 that was originally in the car was journal bearing, not dual ball bearing. You can have a T61 built with dual ball bearings, and that won't be the extremely high price of admission taht the GT35R is (2,200 bucks for turbo alone, last I checked, a BB T61 flanged like you want, depending on the A/R, the compressor and turbine trim, etc, woudl probably be 1,000 MAX for the turbo).
Because the T61 would be SO much more efficient than the K-27, your car would build boost WAY earlier than the K-27, would hold it longer and truer. And with the T61, you have WAY more headroom than you do with the K-27 (porsche guys have a hard time getting built K-27s over 500hp with standalone engine management). On your car, you'll have to fabricate an exhaust, but that's not a big deal, and I hope that you were expecting to do that. You'll also have to accomodate in your exhaust for the wastegate, which is an external unit on that manifold. If you're going for big power, and want to have more reliable boost levels, I reccomend you not cheap on the wastegate and boost controller. They can make a huge difference in how a turbo car behaves, builds and holds boost and power. Make sure your exhaust is large enough to expel the gases, but not so large that they end up cooling off and collecting, causing backpressure which, no matter what anyone tells you, is BAD. Also, if you're going to be going on this level, you should look for a bigger intercooler. You don't have to buy a fresh one, find an intercooler off of a turbo car in the junkyard that uses a nice big, thick core stock.
This will be a huge factor in how much boost you can run, because if your intake charge temp is too high, you get detonation. Also, by cooling the intake charge, you have more oxygen per square inch, which means you can add more fuel, which means more powerful combustion=more power. Then, after that, pick up some injectors from a 5.0 liter mustang. They're the proper impedence, and flow huge numbers, and are cheap. Get 'em cleaned. Then just get a good rising rate adjustable fuel pressure regulator so you can adjust how much fuel to dump into the engine, and I'd say that you'll have yourself a car that is capable of 500 crank HP for very little investment. Your only potential restriction is the DME and the AFM...if you can afford to replace it with standalone, that will change how your car behaves and how much power you can make DRAMATICALLY. I'm talking an extra 100hp just by converting.
Hope this isn't too much info for you. I have a good friend who spent two years trying to convert his car to a 645CSi using 745i turbo parts only to fail because he used guys that did hack jobs and constantly switched hacks, so he could never get an accurate diagnosis, etc. He blew three motors (all were junkyard motors, one of which was killed the very second he turned the ignition...the mechanic set the timing 90 degrees off, bending all the valves ). If he had just done his homework, and either gotten all the stuff himself and taken it to a decent tech, found someone reputable, or done the work himself, he would've had a 400hp 535 like my friend has. He did his car turbo for 2,000 dollars all in, and has had it running that way for nearly 50,000 miles. The motor has 251,000 miles, never opened up, and has no problems except for a slightly leaky head gasket. It makes 340 RWHP with that many miles and the HG. With a fresh junker motor, he's good for at least 450. If you do your homework, you can have something like that or better easily. Good luck, the only thing I ask in return for my two cents is that you post pictures and video as you progress through the project.
Iz this accurate?
[Edit by rundatrack on [TIME]1124222811[/TIME]]
Is this Correct
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rundatrack
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rundatrack
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rundatrack
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Ya,
My eyes burn to. Umm, on the turbo, the T61 and 60-1 are good choices. I agree with that. Steve Dinan recommended the 60-1 to me. I believe TCD has a T61 on his car. These turbos are good for 400-450whp.
I believe that everything else he said is pretty spot on. If you skimp on the important stuff, you can get hosed. Also good advice on the I/C. But, finding ones that work in a E28 out of parts yards will be difficult and will requier to custom fabrication on your part.
The KKK-27 in the 745i is a huge turbo. But I believe BMW designed it that way to lessen turbo spooling thrust. Since the system only made ~5psi, there was no need for really fast spool up, and smooth power delivery was more important than quick spool up. To this day, BMW doesn't like the way turbos make the car feel under acceleration. So they went to great pains to make the 745i not feel like a turbo car, so you get all the stuff they put on, IMHO.
A good mechanic that you can trust is PRICELESS. I agree there.
RussC
My eyes burn to. Umm, on the turbo, the T61 and 60-1 are good choices. I agree with that. Steve Dinan recommended the 60-1 to me. I believe TCD has a T61 on his car. These turbos are good for 400-450whp.
I believe that everything else he said is pretty spot on. If you skimp on the important stuff, you can get hosed. Also good advice on the I/C. But, finding ones that work in a E28 out of parts yards will be difficult and will requier to custom fabrication on your part.
The KKK-27 in the 745i is a huge turbo. But I believe BMW designed it that way to lessen turbo spooling thrust. Since the system only made ~5psi, there was no need for really fast spool up, and smooth power delivery was more important than quick spool up. To this day, BMW doesn't like the way turbos make the car feel under acceleration. So they went to great pains to make the 745i not feel like a turbo car, so you get all the stuff they put on, IMHO.
A good mechanic that you can trust is PRICELESS. I agree there.
RussC
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rundatrack
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rundatrack
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- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
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rundatrack
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A mysterious stranger passes information to a young upstart in an attempt to influence the running of the 2006 Grassroots Motorsports Challenge. The young racer is at first grateful for this assistance, but then doubt knaws at his mind. Why is this man being so helpful? What is his REAL motive? What should he have for dinner?
"A riveting read" - Clive Cussler
"A riveting read" - Clive Cussler