The following statement is just a friend of mines opinion not a personal attack in any way shape or form...I know some people get defensive but grow up if ya do.....just a statement and wanna see your comments...
The statement that I asked was that there are 2 different setups that I am considering the 745 vs TCD S1...I said that the TCD seems like the more efficient system......and this was the reply
I would probably go with the 745 setup. The TCD S1 setup doesn't use an intercooler, which, in my opinion, is pretty negligent, although I understand why they did it (greater affordability). The 745 setup includes an intercooler, which you could later upgrade. If you have a 745 source lined up, use the blown turbo as a negotiating point. It's an opportunity for you to get a custom turbo. Triple K turbos are quite dated and irrellevant in today's performance market. You can get a custom turbo that is flanged for a KKK turbo but uses a garrett housing, CHRA, turbine and compressor wheel, which is the most effective route to take. You'll make more power at lower RPM with the garrett turbo. As far as whether or not a 745 kit could compete, I think it would outclass an S1 kit.
The only benefit that the S1 kit has in my mind is that it's already garrett flanged, so turbo changes are easy. Otherwise, I know of people getting 400 crank horsepower using little 10 dollar tweaks like wastegate springs on the stock turbo. With a bigger intercooler, the garrett turbo, proper injectors, AFM tuning and DME tuning, you could find yourself with 450-500 crank HP that drives like an N/A car. And, to top it all off, the setup in its modified form would probably cost as much as the TCD S1 kit. As far as I can see, the 745 setup is your best option, without question. Do your homework, think before you leap, and you'll have reliable, efficient horsepower that gives you shit-eating smiles for thousands of miles to come.
What do ya think...if ya get ya bent outta shape just dont reply...
Thanks
Before anyone starts to get upset and all.....
hmm, and I am speaking ffrom my personal 745i experience:
1970's technology compared to 1990's tech.
745i Lag compared to the TCD almost nonexisting lag
Pricy BMW/KKK components compared to more modern less costly TCD components
Cobble together 20 times to get it right compared to drop it in and it fits the first time.
I am sorry was there supposed to be an argument here?
Gene Berg said it best:" Buy the best and cry once."
1970's technology compared to 1990's tech.
745i Lag compared to the TCD almost nonexisting lag
Pricy BMW/KKK components compared to more modern less costly TCD components
Cobble together 20 times to get it right compared to drop it in and it fits the first time.
I am sorry was there supposed to be an argument here?
Gene Berg said it best:" Buy the best and cry once."
I read the replies to your other posts, I can't get myself to actually read the original post in its entirety. I did read this one, however.
While what your friend says about getting Garrett parts put in behind the KKK flange might be true, I can't think of a single person that I've heard of that has had that done. It would probably cost you more to do that than it would to just buy a brand new Garrett unit off the shelf.
As far as not including an intercooler in the S1 kit goes, there's no way in hell that's "negligent". Todd managed to run 14-15psi without detonation using that kit without intercooler. I have had zero issues with my kit running at 10psi. Will you make more power with a system with a proper intercooler? Absolutely. Is it a bad thing not to have if you're not concerned with making the most power possibe? Absolutely not, particularly with these motors. If you really want an intercooler, there's always the S2 kit.
The w/a intercooler included in the TCD kit has many advantages over the a/a that Dinan and the 745i use in their kits, especially for a street car. Placement is much easier since good air flow is easier to find for a heat exchanger, and the exchanger itself is smaller. Intake piping for the turbo is also simpler since you don't need to route the charge air to the front of the car and then back to the throttle plate. Heat soak is simply not an issue with a w/a on a street driven car since you're not on boost for an extended period of time. If you do plan on taking it to the track (road course, 1/4 mile isn't an issue at all), you can add another heat exchanger or increase the volume of water in the system or both.
As for modifying the wastegate spring on the 745i setup with "ten dollar tweaks", your buddy is misinformed. The 745i wastegate is a bit of a bitch to deal with by all acounts, and people send them out to be modified for higher boost. No $10 tweaks there. The TCD wategate, on the other hand, you absolutely can modify for bigger boost by changing a $10 wastegate spring. It's a Tial wastegate, very common.
That brings me to the last and greatest strength of the TCD kit over the 745i setup. The TCD kits uses all modern parts, so if something breaks it's replaceable very easily. Finding a 745i wastegate can be very difficult, finding an uncracked 745i turbo manifold is pretty much impossible, and the 745i electronics are quite rare since they ONLY came in that car. Custom exhausts are cool I suppose (it'll be required for the 745i setup), but Todd already has a VERY nice one ready to go for you.
With a 745i kit you're dealing with parts that're all at or near 20 years old. By the time you're done bringing everything up to "like new" or "better than new" condition, you may as well have started with the TCD kit. Sure, you can save money by finding good stuff and using that, but who knows how long it'll last? A TCD kit is 100% brand spankin' new.
I don't know how much experience your friend has with BMW turbos, but hitting that 450-500 crank hp mark is not a simple task by any stretch of the imagination. You're looking at aftermarket management for at least the fueling part of the equation, as Motronic reaches a point where it just doesn't like to be tweaked any more. The injectors get too large, the AFM spring gets too tight, you can't get your idle right, etc.
Hope I didn't get "testy"
and this answer was helpful to you.
Jeremy
While what your friend says about getting Garrett parts put in behind the KKK flange might be true, I can't think of a single person that I've heard of that has had that done. It would probably cost you more to do that than it would to just buy a brand new Garrett unit off the shelf.
As far as not including an intercooler in the S1 kit goes, there's no way in hell that's "negligent". Todd managed to run 14-15psi without detonation using that kit without intercooler. I have had zero issues with my kit running at 10psi. Will you make more power with a system with a proper intercooler? Absolutely. Is it a bad thing not to have if you're not concerned with making the most power possibe? Absolutely not, particularly with these motors. If you really want an intercooler, there's always the S2 kit.
The w/a intercooler included in the TCD kit has many advantages over the a/a that Dinan and the 745i use in their kits, especially for a street car. Placement is much easier since good air flow is easier to find for a heat exchanger, and the exchanger itself is smaller. Intake piping for the turbo is also simpler since you don't need to route the charge air to the front of the car and then back to the throttle plate. Heat soak is simply not an issue with a w/a on a street driven car since you're not on boost for an extended period of time. If you do plan on taking it to the track (road course, 1/4 mile isn't an issue at all), you can add another heat exchanger or increase the volume of water in the system or both.
As for modifying the wastegate spring on the 745i setup with "ten dollar tweaks", your buddy is misinformed. The 745i wastegate is a bit of a bitch to deal with by all acounts, and people send them out to be modified for higher boost. No $10 tweaks there. The TCD wategate, on the other hand, you absolutely can modify for bigger boost by changing a $10 wastegate spring. It's a Tial wastegate, very common.
That brings me to the last and greatest strength of the TCD kit over the 745i setup. The TCD kits uses all modern parts, so if something breaks it's replaceable very easily. Finding a 745i wastegate can be very difficult, finding an uncracked 745i turbo manifold is pretty much impossible, and the 745i electronics are quite rare since they ONLY came in that car. Custom exhausts are cool I suppose (it'll be required for the 745i setup), but Todd already has a VERY nice one ready to go for you.
With a 745i kit you're dealing with parts that're all at or near 20 years old. By the time you're done bringing everything up to "like new" or "better than new" condition, you may as well have started with the TCD kit. Sure, you can save money by finding good stuff and using that, but who knows how long it'll last? A TCD kit is 100% brand spankin' new.
I don't know how much experience your friend has with BMW turbos, but hitting that 450-500 crank hp mark is not a simple task by any stretch of the imagination. You're looking at aftermarket management for at least the fueling part of the equation, as Motronic reaches a point where it just doesn't like to be tweaked any more. The injectors get too large, the AFM spring gets too tight, you can't get your idle right, etc.
Hope I didn't get "testy"
and this answer was helpful to you.Jeremy
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rundatrack
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
Jeremy and RD...thank you very much....
@jeremy...it wasnt that I was thinking that someone would get made...but I know TCD are good people..And I didnt want this to become a CartonPres..whats his name again type of conversion...
I want it to be as civil as possible....
Thanks for your comments fellas I great appreciate it...
@jeremy...it wasnt that I was thinking that someone would get made...but I know TCD are good people..And I didnt want this to become a CartonPres..whats his name again type of conversion...
I want it to be as civil as possible....
Thanks for your comments fellas I great appreciate it...
A couple more points, if I remember them correctly:
Using the 745 setup requires relocation of the brake lines on the inner fender, the TCD S1 does not.
Using the 745 setup requires different exhaust studs, the TCD S1 does not.
Are those points "minor"? I guess it depends.
[QUOTE="rundatrack"]The following statement is just a friend of mines opinion not a personal attack in any way shape or form...I know some people get defensive but grow up if ya do.....just a statement and wanna see your comments...
The TCD S1 setup doesn't use an intercooler, which, in my opinion, is pretty negligent...
What do ya think...if ya get ya bent outta shape just dont reply...[/QUOTE]
Why don't YOU grow up and not get bent out of shape about others getting bent out of shape? I think the main instigator in getting bent out of shape is the use of the fighting word "negligent." It would be negligent to design something substandard and pass it off as something it is not, or to fail to take into account relevant issues. Not providing an oil supply to the turbo would be negligent, not designing in an intercooler to this particular level of kit is not.
Using the 745 setup requires relocation of the brake lines on the inner fender, the TCD S1 does not.
Using the 745 setup requires different exhaust studs, the TCD S1 does not.
Are those points "minor"? I guess it depends.
[QUOTE="rundatrack"]The following statement is just a friend of mines opinion not a personal attack in any way shape or form...I know some people get defensive but grow up if ya do.....just a statement and wanna see your comments...
The TCD S1 setup doesn't use an intercooler, which, in my opinion, is pretty negligent...
What do ya think...if ya get ya bent outta shape just dont reply...[/QUOTE]
Why don't YOU grow up and not get bent out of shape about others getting bent out of shape? I think the main instigator in getting bent out of shape is the use of the fighting word "negligent." It would be negligent to design something substandard and pass it off as something it is not, or to fail to take into account relevant issues. Not providing an oil supply to the turbo would be negligent, not designing in an intercooler to this particular level of kit is not.
Shawn,
Though he didn't use the quote tags, or any punctuation, I think the 'negligent' comment was in his friends reply to his question. Those are the friends words, not his....
Though he didn't use the quote tags, or any punctuation, I think the 'negligent' comment was in his friends reply to his question. Those are the friends words, not his....
I don't think rundatrack is trying to throw around fighting words.Originally posted by rundatrack
The statement that I asked was that there are 2 different setups that I am considering the 745 vs TCD S1...I said that the TCD seems like the more efficient system......and this was the reply
I would probably go with the 745 setup. The TCD S1 setup doesn't use an intercooler, which, in my opinion, is pretty negligent...
I have yet to see a dyno sheet of a 745i or 745i setup in any other car that has made more RWHP than my 535i when it was NON Intercooled! Best I have seen is Afshin in Switzerland who made 282rwhp at 15psi. Best dyno result for a 745i I have seen is mine that made 331rwhp with all our leftover/castaway/prototype parts. 
As I said at 5erFest, the 745i is a good choice for an advanced DIYer on a seroius budget. Better that our S1 setup? No way. Not even close. This is coming from someone who has owned 6 745i!
Todd
As I said at 5erFest, the 745i is a good choice for an advanced DIYer on a seroius budget. Better that our S1 setup? No way. Not even close. This is coming from someone who has owned 6 745i!
Todd
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scottiesharpe
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
- Location: San Jose CA
- Contact:
OK, you know me............take what I say with a grain of salt! :-) Before I "discovered" the 745i, I played extensively with Cartech turbo kits and motorcycle turbo kits. But now I am an M106 junkie. :-)
Boiled down....I think price and installation difficulty is probably the most significant factor for most people. The 745i kit is cheaper to obtain, but the TDC kit is far easier to install.
Price of the TDC kit is not that bad considering Todd has put a huge effort into making a turbo kit that is literally bolt on for M30. The fact is lots of not-too-technical guys have done the kit and it works damn well. That is worth big $$ right there.
I hear a lot of people discount the Bosch technology used to run the 745i DME because they think it is outdated. I actually think it was way ahead of its time.
The motronic features a two stage knock control (for running any type of gas) where the system will first retard the ignition until the exhaust temp reaches 1000'c then it will lower the boost until knock is eliminated, lean condition protection where the system will calculate a "safety monitor" A/F mixture by roughly calculating two of the three sensors (for example, when air volume based on RPM vs. Boost falls 15% outside the fuel map, the system will shut off fuel), and overheating protection with limp home mode based on load/rpm.
When bolting a turbo to an M30, I do not think you get this type of flexibility or protection with the standard Motronic system. You have to be consistent with your gas quality and dial in your mixture for that type of fuel. If you want additional protection or flexibility, you'd have to add a separate controller to the system like Greddy or Apexi to get some of these functions.
However the biggest drivability factgor for me is I like low RPM torque. No add on system that I know of uses a flutter valve to control the wastegate. The flutter conditions are controlled by the DME based on RPM, load and of course knock control. Flutter creates a "semi-closed" state for the wastegate (a reason why the buggers wear out after only 20 years - they are constantly opening and closing 12 times per second.) However, this unique technique allowed BMW engineers to produce maximum torque at a mere 2200 and maxium hp at 4400 rpm.
Using a TDC on an M30 compensates for this somewhat because you are not running at 8:1 compression like on the 745i motor. So low RPM torque is still retained, but you are not turning 250 ft/lbs of torque at 6 psi at 2200 RPM like on the 745i motor. That is quite a thrill!
Turbo lag: If anyone tells you they have turbo lag on a stock 745i, then their system has a broken magnetic valve, or a ripped diaphram in the wastegate or some other fault. There should be no significant turbo lag above 3000 RPM and less than 1 sec from 1800-2500 RPM.
I will grant you that INDIVIDUAL 745i components are hard to find. The two rare items are the ECU and the wastegate. At this time, I have not been successful at repairing a wastegate, but hopefully soon I will either find a replacement two chamber wastegate model, or figure out how to fix broken diaphrams.
Also....I thought Todd is using a water intercooler on his kits. I'd rather have a water intercooler than a 745i intercooler. The 745i intercooler is WAY too small. Keeping a cool charge is the key to producing big power with a turbo motor.
My next fun thing to play with is going to be to rip apart my BBS spoiler and see if I can fit some sort of massive intercooler in it. :-)
Keep the pressure on!
Boiled down....I think price and installation difficulty is probably the most significant factor for most people. The 745i kit is cheaper to obtain, but the TDC kit is far easier to install.
Price of the TDC kit is not that bad considering Todd has put a huge effort into making a turbo kit that is literally bolt on for M30. The fact is lots of not-too-technical guys have done the kit and it works damn well. That is worth big $$ right there.
I hear a lot of people discount the Bosch technology used to run the 745i DME because they think it is outdated. I actually think it was way ahead of its time.
The motronic features a two stage knock control (for running any type of gas) where the system will first retard the ignition until the exhaust temp reaches 1000'c then it will lower the boost until knock is eliminated, lean condition protection where the system will calculate a "safety monitor" A/F mixture by roughly calculating two of the three sensors (for example, when air volume based on RPM vs. Boost falls 15% outside the fuel map, the system will shut off fuel), and overheating protection with limp home mode based on load/rpm.
When bolting a turbo to an M30, I do not think you get this type of flexibility or protection with the standard Motronic system. You have to be consistent with your gas quality and dial in your mixture for that type of fuel. If you want additional protection or flexibility, you'd have to add a separate controller to the system like Greddy or Apexi to get some of these functions.
However the biggest drivability factgor for me is I like low RPM torque. No add on system that I know of uses a flutter valve to control the wastegate. The flutter conditions are controlled by the DME based on RPM, load and of course knock control. Flutter creates a "semi-closed" state for the wastegate (a reason why the buggers wear out after only 20 years - they are constantly opening and closing 12 times per second.) However, this unique technique allowed BMW engineers to produce maximum torque at a mere 2200 and maxium hp at 4400 rpm.
Using a TDC on an M30 compensates for this somewhat because you are not running at 8:1 compression like on the 745i motor. So low RPM torque is still retained, but you are not turning 250 ft/lbs of torque at 6 psi at 2200 RPM like on the 745i motor. That is quite a thrill!
Turbo lag: If anyone tells you they have turbo lag on a stock 745i, then their system has a broken magnetic valve, or a ripped diaphram in the wastegate or some other fault. There should be no significant turbo lag above 3000 RPM and less than 1 sec from 1800-2500 RPM.
I will grant you that INDIVIDUAL 745i components are hard to find. The two rare items are the ECU and the wastegate. At this time, I have not been successful at repairing a wastegate, but hopefully soon I will either find a replacement two chamber wastegate model, or figure out how to fix broken diaphrams.
Also....I thought Todd is using a water intercooler on his kits. I'd rather have a water intercooler than a 745i intercooler. The 745i intercooler is WAY too small. Keeping a cool charge is the key to producing big power with a turbo motor.
My next fun thing to play with is going to be to rip apart my BBS spoiler and see if I can fit some sort of massive intercooler in it. :-)
Keep the pressure on!
I mostly agree with ScottieS. I saw the BMW technical papers on this WG flutter system over at the 745i.com website. It's really interesting reading. The thoery behind the system is that the intake/exhaust system on a car is a pulsed gas system. Any time you deal with pulsing flow, you can tune it for resonances, like an electronic frequency amplifier. Using tube length and size, you can tune the intake/exhaust to create resonances that increase/retard flow. The flutter WG is equivalent to a tuning capacitor int the exhaust system.
The DME system on the 745i was ahead of it's time for sure. But Scottie....
Um, on the 225ft-lbs at 2200rpm, is that stock system or a modded system thats making more power??
Some of my best runs made 200lb-ft at 2200rpm. Although 225lb-ft is very good. Are you taking that torque # from Joe E's dyno runs??
One factor I think also is that the 745i are auto trannys, and that puts more load on the engine, helping the system make boost earlier.
I would personally go with the TCD kit. The 745i system is more complicated, parts are hard to find and the system is harder to tune. But, the M106 had it's benefits, as Scottie said.
Russc
The DME system on the 745i was ahead of it's time for sure. But Scottie....
Um, on the 225ft-lbs at 2200rpm, is that stock system or a modded system thats making more power??
Some of my best runs made 200lb-ft at 2200rpm. Although 225lb-ft is very good. Are you taking that torque # from Joe E's dyno runs??
One factor I think also is that the 745i are auto trannys, and that puts more load on the engine, helping the system make boost earlier.
I would personally go with the TCD kit. The 745i system is more complicated, parts are hard to find and the system is harder to tune. But, the M106 had it's benefits, as Scottie said.
Russc
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rundatrack
- Posts: 454
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
[QUOTE="Shawn D."]Yes, I understand Rundatrack didn't use the word "negligent" himself, but if he's worried about causing a stir, a bit of editing would have been in order instead of just passing it straight though and telling folks not to get pissy.[/QUOTE]
Maybe I should do it more often 13 posts in less than week...NEW RECORD.... ~0
Maybe I should do it more often 13 posts in less than week...NEW RECORD.... ~0
just because it WAS ahead of its time THEN dosent mean it isnt outdated NOW.scottiesharpe wrote:I hear a lot of people discount the Bosch technology used to run the 745i DME because they think it is outdated. I actually think it was way ahead of its time.
Turbo lag: If anyone tells you they have turbo lag on a stock 745i, then their system has a broken magnetic valve, or a ripped diaphram in the wastegate or some other fault. There should be no significant turbo lag above 3000 RPM and less than 1 sec from 1800-2500 RPM.
no turbo boost until 3000 RPM is signifigant lag. period
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scottiesharpe
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
- Location: San Jose CA
- Contact:
[QUOTE="russc"]Um, on the 225ft-lbs at 2200rpm, is that stock system or a modded system thats making more power??
Some of my best runs made 200lb-ft at 2200rpm. Although 225lb-ft is very good. Are you taking that torque # from Joe E's dyno runs??
Russc[/QUOTE]
Sorry Russ. I quoted wrong numbers. Stock torque is not 225.
Stock torque is 280 ft / lbs at 2200.
Also, stock max hp is not produced at 4400 RPM; it's produced at a mere 4200 RPM !!
A very drivable motor, for sure!
Here are the stock specs:
http://745i.scottiesharpe.com/Welcometo ... les/MD.htm
You mentioned Joey's numbers. Joey is pushing 400 ft/lbs at 3000 rpm, on an otherwise stock 745i motor. (He did do some port/polish on the head.)
[Edit by scottiesharpe on [TIME]1124323251[/TIME]]
Some of my best runs made 200lb-ft at 2200rpm. Although 225lb-ft is very good. Are you taking that torque # from Joe E's dyno runs??
Russc[/QUOTE]
Sorry Russ. I quoted wrong numbers. Stock torque is not 225.
Stock torque is 280 ft / lbs at 2200.
Also, stock max hp is not produced at 4400 RPM; it's produced at a mere 4200 RPM !!
A very drivable motor, for sure!
Here are the stock specs:
http://745i.scottiesharpe.com/Welcometo ... les/MD.htm
You mentioned Joey's numbers. Joey is pushing 400 ft/lbs at 3000 rpm, on an otherwise stock 745i motor. (He did do some port/polish on the head.)
[Edit by scottiesharpe on [TIME]1124323251[/TIME]]
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scottiesharpe
- Posts: 187
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- Location: San Jose CA
- Contact:
i think YOU dont understand your statement. that lack of boost pressure under 3000 RPM is what the rest of the world refers to as turbo lag. you deciding to ignore that and only adress lag above 3000 RPM is pretty much nuts. my car with a te44 turbo has over 10lbs of boost by 3000 RPM. hows your 745 ever going to compare to that????
[QUOTE="chrism"]no turbo boost until 3000 RPM is signifigant lag. period[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="scottiesharpe"]Chris you misread my statement. Please recheck. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="chrism"]no turbo boost until 3000 RPM is signifigant lag. period[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="scottiesharpe"]Chris you misread my statement. Please recheck. [/QUOTE]
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scottiesharpe
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
- Location: San Jose CA
- Contact:
Todd, BMW reported max torque at 2200 RPM on their stock motor. What makes you think max torque for the new motor shouldn't come in at 3000 RPM? I don't understand.
Chris, you need try a decafinated coffee, dude. I'm not going to get on your case too much but your attitude makes you look like an ass. Take a deep breath and go back and re-read what I wrote. It's in English and there are no big words.
Chris, you need try a decafinated coffee, dude. I'm not going to get on your case too much but your attitude makes you look like an ass. Take a deep breath and go back and re-read what I wrote. It's in English and there are no big words.
[QUOTE="scottiesharpe"]Todd, BMW reported max torque at 2200 RPM on their stock motor. What makes you think max torque for the new motor shouldn't come in at 3000 RPM? I don't understand. [/QUOTE]
You posted a dyno sheet that is clearly inaccurate. I have owned and driven enough 745i to know it makes zero power below 3000rpm.
Just because BMW says so doesn't make it true. You own a 745i. You know what happens when you go WOT from a deadstop! If it made peak trq at 2200rpm it would fly off the line. Instead it barely moves until 3500rpm is reached at ~30mph.
Speak the truth Scottie. You know what it is! Don't let the flutter vlave get to you head.
You posted a dyno sheet that is clearly inaccurate. I have owned and driven enough 745i to know it makes zero power below 3000rpm.
Just because BMW says so doesn't make it true. You own a 745i. You know what happens when you go WOT from a deadstop! If it made peak trq at 2200rpm it would fly off the line. Instead it barely moves until 3500rpm is reached at ~30mph.
Speak the truth Scottie. You know what it is! Don't let the flutter vlave get to you head.
Damn,
I shouldn't have brought up JoeE's dyno, oh well, the cats out of the bag again.
I've looked at JoeEs dyno chart alot, and I have what I believe to be a glaring issue. And it's right at the start of the dyno run. How does his 9psi system make 300lb-ft at the start of the dyno run
In theory theres no boost there yet as the operator would have just gone to WOT at that point. That dyno says the system makes 300lb-ft at 2350rpm with 0psi of boost The only other case to be made is that the operator was running throught he gears @ WOT and is just showing us the 3rd gear run I was standing right there, and I don't remember that.
It just dosen't make any sense. Subsequent runs had similar results, so theres an issue with the dyno and nothing else. I don't believe those are representative runs of a typical M106. Even if you compare those #s with Jarmos 16psi run on his website, 10psi maxs makes almost as much torque as a 16psi run Again, I can't swallow it.
I hate to be so negative on this, but this is more a snipe at BMW, Duke said that he talked with an engineer at BMW while he was in Germany, his remarks to published BMW power figures was not flattering. He said that BMW would dyno lots of engines, then use the best laid #s as the publishable figures......
Now, thats not to say that JoeEs system isn't good, I believe it is. I just don't understand that dyno...
Umm, on to the system itself and ChrisMs comment. The M106 ECUs are still very good today, even by aftermarket standards. Most aftermaket kits don't have knock/boost control to eliminare detonation. That is very good. Now, comparted to a modern EFI system say on a WRX Sti, Ok, I'll give you that. But the 745i stuff is stll very good.
RussC
I shouldn't have brought up JoeE's dyno, oh well, the cats out of the bag again.
I've looked at JoeEs dyno chart alot, and I have what I believe to be a glaring issue. And it's right at the start of the dyno run. How does his 9psi system make 300lb-ft at the start of the dyno run
In theory theres no boost there yet as the operator would have just gone to WOT at that point. That dyno says the system makes 300lb-ft at 2350rpm with 0psi of boost The only other case to be made is that the operator was running throught he gears @ WOT and is just showing us the 3rd gear run I was standing right there, and I don't remember that.It just dosen't make any sense. Subsequent runs had similar results, so theres an issue with the dyno and nothing else. I don't believe those are representative runs of a typical M106. Even if you compare those #s with Jarmos 16psi run on his website, 10psi maxs makes almost as much torque as a 16psi run
Again, I can't swallow it.I hate to be so negative on this, but this is more a snipe at BMW, Duke said that he talked with an engineer at BMW while he was in Germany, his remarks to published BMW power figures was not flattering. He said that BMW would dyno lots of engines, then use the best laid #s as the publishable figures......
Now, thats not to say that JoeEs system isn't good, I believe it is. I just don't understand that dyno...
Umm, on to the system itself and ChrisMs comment. The M106 ECUs are still very good today, even by aftermarket standards. Most aftermaket kits don't have knock/boost control to eliminare detonation. That is very good. Now, comparted to a modern EFI system say on a WRX Sti, Ok, I'll give you that. But the 745i stuff is stll very good.
RussC
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scottiesharpe
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
- Location: San Jose CA
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Russ, I wasn't there that day at the dyno. You were. Was Joey running 9 psi or 14?
There were several other cars dynoed that day, including yours? Were they accurate.
I've been in Joey's car and it hauls ass -- and yes, Todd -- from a dead stop.
My black 745i was no slouch either. I was having a very bad problem with it for a long time where it would boost great on the highway, but around town it would lag. Turns out I had a bad magnetic valve. It clicked when you put 12v to it, but it wasn't doing anyting inside. I miss not having a 745i since Klaus was smashed.
My silver car will be done sometime soon and I will put it on the rollers. It is completely STOCK!! So maybe we will get an answer on those stock BMW numbers once and for all.... :-) I'll drag Russ with me so we have an objective witness!!!!
There were several other cars dynoed that day, including yours? Were they accurate.
I've been in Joey's car and it hauls ass -- and yes, Todd -- from a dead stop.
My black 745i was no slouch either. I was having a very bad problem with it for a long time where it would boost great on the highway, but around town it would lag. Turns out I had a bad magnetic valve. It clicked when you put 12v to it, but it wasn't doing anyting inside. I miss not having a 745i since Klaus was smashed.
My silver car will be done sometime soon and I will put it on the rollers. It is completely STOCK!! So maybe we will get an answer on those stock BMW numbers once and for all.... :-) I'll drag Russ with me so we have an objective witness!!!!
[QUOTE="scottiesharpe"]Russ, I wasn't there that day at the dyno. You were. Was Joey running 9 psi or 14?
There were several other cars dynoed that day, including yours? Were they accurate.
I've been in Joey's car and it hauls ass -- and yes, Todd -- from a dead stop.
My black 745i was no slouch either. I was having a very bad problem with it for a long time where it would boost great on the highway, but around town it would lag. Turns out I had a bad magnetic valve. It clicked when you put 12v to it, but it wasn't doing anyting inside. I miss not having a 745i since Klaus was smashed.
My silver car will be done sometime soon and I will put it on the rollers. It is completely STOCK!! So maybe we will get an answer on those stock BMW numbers once and for all.... :-) I'll drag Russ with me so we have an objective witness!!!![/QUOTE]
JoeE said 9psi with some overboost to 10psi.
That day, come to think of it, there was a problem with the car right before JoeEs car. I believe there was an issue that I can't remember what it was. I remember them shutting down the dyno runs do to somthing, what, I can't remember. Joe's car was next on the dyno and the only auto being dyno'd. My car was way to lean do to having my street tune, then way to rich trying to correct. I made 290hp and 325lb-ft, so there pretty close. There were like 1 3series and the rest VWs as it was originally a VW dyno day. I do remember the shop owner scratching his head wondering about the dyno also, as it made as much torque as the 475whp SC'd Mustang in the shop they tuned(4.6l mod motor, 10psi, exhaust, electronics galore).
Dude, I'm there for the next dyno runs. I'll be doing mine in a week or two to dial in the FMU. I'll let everyone know when this will happen. I have the FMU mostly in, and the LM-1 installed.
RussC
There were several other cars dynoed that day, including yours? Were they accurate.
I've been in Joey's car and it hauls ass -- and yes, Todd -- from a dead stop.
My black 745i was no slouch either. I was having a very bad problem with it for a long time where it would boost great on the highway, but around town it would lag. Turns out I had a bad magnetic valve. It clicked when you put 12v to it, but it wasn't doing anyting inside. I miss not having a 745i since Klaus was smashed.
My silver car will be done sometime soon and I will put it on the rollers. It is completely STOCK!! So maybe we will get an answer on those stock BMW numbers once and for all.... :-) I'll drag Russ with me so we have an objective witness!!!!
[/QUOTE]JoeE said 9psi with some overboost to 10psi.
That day, come to think of it, there was a problem with the car right before JoeEs car. I believe there was an issue that I can't remember what it was. I remember them shutting down the dyno runs do to somthing, what, I can't remember. Joe's car was next on the dyno and the only auto being dyno'd. My car was way to lean do to having my street tune, then way to rich trying to correct. I made 290hp and 325lb-ft, so there pretty close. There were like 1 3series and the rest VWs as it was originally a VW dyno day. I do remember the shop owner scratching his head wondering about the dyno also, as it made as much torque as the 475whp SC'd Mustang in the shop they tuned(4.6l mod motor, 10psi, exhaust, electronics galore).
Dude, I'm there for the next dyno runs. I'll be doing mine in a week or two to dial in the FMU. I'll let everyone know when this will happen. I have the FMU mostly in, and the LM-1 installed.
RussC
Yikes!
Just my 2 cents here:
Despite the fact that a lot of people want a turbo system, they can't afford to throw down the money for a turn-key bolt-on system all at once. Nearly everyone I know would be better off with a turn-key bolt-on system for several reasons the first being they are not very technically savie. For folks with slow $ (like me), the 745 system was a good way to go because I could collect parts over a period of time. Really, all I needed (or anyone needs for that matter) for a 745i-like, M30 bolt-on system was an okay manifold, wastegate and turbo. Everything else was basically made custom during the install (piping, exhaust, etc.). Not a big deal really. Basically, if you have more time than $, the 745i-like bolt-on system for a stock M30 engine is a very good cheap alternative system to go with, but again I think the TCD turn-key systems are unbelievable for the $ and if I was doing it today and had short skills I would spend the extra time I had/have saving the $ to buy the TCD S1 system then maybe upgrade to whatever later. TCD and his associates have put much pain and love into their systems and they are super nice and perform very well.
As an aside, having worked with many turbo cars, big lag is often due to a poorly functioning or failed part. Even little piping leakes, exhaust or induction or both, will cause lag. I did some extensive work on a Porsche 959 (twin turbo) and despite the fact that it had nice silicone piping connections, there where still air leaks(several of them). I was surprised to discover this, but had to work the joints until the leaks where gone. It made a big difference.
I would guess that the TCD systems have little if any lag because of the configuration. Fewer joints, more agressive A/R turbo ratios and close coupling(the m30 kits especialy). Also, nearly all 745 systems I've worked with have come to me very out of shape. A leaking wastegate is probably the biggest mechanical culprit that is ignored because people do not know how to service them (and they definately need regular servicing). There may be others out there, but I am the only guy I know who regularly yanks the wastegate studs and laps the wastegate inverted-valve into the housing to redress the seat. You just take a little valve grinding compound and go to town spinning the wastegate around while pushing it down into the housing. It's a pain to do, but it is so worth it. It's like driving two different cars when you are done. A properly done/maintianed 745 system should have little lag in it.
Just my 2 cents here:
Despite the fact that a lot of people want a turbo system, they can't afford to throw down the money for a turn-key bolt-on system all at once. Nearly everyone I know would be better off with a turn-key bolt-on system for several reasons the first being they are not very technically savie. For folks with slow $ (like me), the 745 system was a good way to go because I could collect parts over a period of time. Really, all I needed (or anyone needs for that matter) for a 745i-like, M30 bolt-on system was an okay manifold, wastegate and turbo. Everything else was basically made custom during the install (piping, exhaust, etc.). Not a big deal really. Basically, if you have more time than $, the 745i-like bolt-on system for a stock M30 engine is a very good cheap alternative system to go with, but again I think the TCD turn-key systems are unbelievable for the $ and if I was doing it today and had short skills I would spend the extra time I had/have saving the $ to buy the TCD S1 system then maybe upgrade to whatever later. TCD and his associates have put much pain and love into their systems and they are super nice and perform very well.
As an aside, having worked with many turbo cars, big lag is often due to a poorly functioning or failed part. Even little piping leakes, exhaust or induction or both, will cause lag. I did some extensive work on a Porsche 959 (twin turbo) and despite the fact that it had nice silicone piping connections, there where still air leaks(several of them). I was surprised to discover this, but had to work the joints until the leaks where gone. It made a big difference.
I would guess that the TCD systems have little if any lag because of the configuration. Fewer joints, more agressive A/R turbo ratios and close coupling(the m30 kits especialy). Also, nearly all 745 systems I've worked with have come to me very out of shape. A leaking wastegate is probably the biggest mechanical culprit that is ignored because people do not know how to service them (and they definately need regular servicing). There may be others out there, but I am the only guy I know who regularly yanks the wastegate studs and laps the wastegate inverted-valve into the housing to redress the seat. You just take a little valve grinding compound and go to town spinning the wastegate around while pushing it down into the housing. It's a pain to do, but it is so worth it. It's like driving two different cars when you are done. A properly done/maintianed 745 system should have little lag in it.
[QUOTE="Jesse "]Yikes!
Just my 2 cents here:
Despite the fact that a lot of people want a turbo system, they can't afford to throw down the money for a turn-key bolt-on system all at once. Nearly everyone I know would be better off with a turn-key bolt-on system for several reasons the first being they are not very technically savie. For folks with slow $ (like me), the 745 system was a good way to go because I could collect parts over a period of time. Really, all I needed (or anyone needs for that matter) for a 745i-like, M30 bolt-on system was an okay manifold, wastegate and turbo. Everything else was basically made custom during the install (piping, exhaust, etc.). Not a big deal really. Basically, if you have more time than $, the 745i-like bolt-on system for a stock M30 engine is a very good cheap alternative system to go with, but again I think the TCD turn-key systems are unbelievable for the $ and if I was doing it today and had short skills I would spend the extra time I had/have saving the $ to buy the TCD S1 system then maybe upgrade to whatever later. TCD and his associates have put much pain and love into their systems and they are super nice and perform very well.
As an aside, having worked with many turbo cars, big lag is often due to a poorly functioning or failed part. Even little piping leakes, exhaust or induction or both, will cause lag. I did some extensive work on a Porsche 959 (twin turbo) and despite the fact that it had nice silicone piping connections, there where still air leaks(several of them). I was surprised to discover this, but had to work the joints until the leaks where gone. It made a big difference.
I would guess that the TCD systems have little if any lag because of the configuration. Fewer joints, more agressive A/R turbo ratios and close coupling(the m30 kits especialy). Also, nearly all 745 systems I've worked with have come to me very out of shape. A leaking wastegate is probably the biggest mechanical culprit that is ignored because people do not know how to service them (and they definately need regular servicing). There may be others out there, but I am the only guy I know who regularly yanks the wastegate studs and laps the wastegate inverted-valve into the housing to redress the seat. You just take a little valve grinding compound and go to town spinning the wastegate around while pushing it down into the housing. It's a pain to do, but it is so worth it. It's like driving two different cars when you are done. A properly done/maintianed 745 system should have little lag in it.[/QUOTE]
Jesse,
I can always count on you to be a voice of reason. I look forward to the completion of your project and dyno results with Motec at the controls! Sell all that VW stuff and you won't be "short" on $$$.
Todd
Just my 2 cents here:
Despite the fact that a lot of people want a turbo system, they can't afford to throw down the money for a turn-key bolt-on system all at once. Nearly everyone I know would be better off with a turn-key bolt-on system for several reasons the first being they are not very technically savie. For folks with slow $ (like me), the 745 system was a good way to go because I could collect parts over a period of time. Really, all I needed (or anyone needs for that matter) for a 745i-like, M30 bolt-on system was an okay manifold, wastegate and turbo. Everything else was basically made custom during the install (piping, exhaust, etc.). Not a big deal really. Basically, if you have more time than $, the 745i-like bolt-on system for a stock M30 engine is a very good cheap alternative system to go with, but again I think the TCD turn-key systems are unbelievable for the $ and if I was doing it today and had short skills I would spend the extra time I had/have saving the $ to buy the TCD S1 system then maybe upgrade to whatever later. TCD and his associates have put much pain and love into their systems and they are super nice and perform very well.
As an aside, having worked with many turbo cars, big lag is often due to a poorly functioning or failed part. Even little piping leakes, exhaust or induction or both, will cause lag. I did some extensive work on a Porsche 959 (twin turbo) and despite the fact that it had nice silicone piping connections, there where still air leaks(several of them). I was surprised to discover this, but had to work the joints until the leaks where gone. It made a big difference.
I would guess that the TCD systems have little if any lag because of the configuration. Fewer joints, more agressive A/R turbo ratios and close coupling(the m30 kits especialy). Also, nearly all 745 systems I've worked with have come to me very out of shape. A leaking wastegate is probably the biggest mechanical culprit that is ignored because people do not know how to service them (and they definately need regular servicing). There may be others out there, but I am the only guy I know who regularly yanks the wastegate studs and laps the wastegate inverted-valve into the housing to redress the seat. You just take a little valve grinding compound and go to town spinning the wastegate around while pushing it down into the housing. It's a pain to do, but it is so worth it. It's like driving two different cars when you are done. A properly done/maintianed 745 system should have little lag in it.[/QUOTE]
Jesse,
I can always count on you to be a voice of reason. I look forward to the completion of your project and dyno results with Motec at the controls! Sell all that VW stuff and you won't be "short" on $$$.
Todd
Is anyone having a dyno day in CT?? I'd like to run the car the way it is right now to get a good baseline before I go with Motec and maybe a water to air intercooler (I'm adapting one from some jet engine parts I have).
BTW - I wanted to add one more comment to the fray above. Remember guys, boost level/pressure is not just a function of RPM. It is a function of load and RPM. The anecdotes about boost levels at certain RPM are interesting but not quite scientific.
If I misunderstand your explanations above please correct me.
BTW - I wanted to add one more comment to the fray above. Remember guys, boost level/pressure is not just a function of RPM. It is a function of load and RPM. The anecdotes about boost levels at certain RPM are interesting but not quite scientific.
If I misunderstand your explanations above please correct me.Jesse, my car is legal to drive on the road again (got all my registration hassles taken care of!), so if you'd like to meet me some day next week, you and I could do a dyno day along with anyone else that wanted to come along. I'd like to use the same place I had the car baselined, it's somewhere up near Suffield. I'll get the exact location from Todd, he's been after me to get the car on the rollers anyway.
Jeremy
Jeremy