requirements for 400whp turbo system...

bmwfan2304 · Post by **bmwfan2304** » Oct 09, 2005 7:53 PM

ok... so i decided i want to build and peice together my own turbo system... probably with a 745i manifold and kkk k27 turbo... my question is... what else would i absolutely NEED to get my car to 400whp? i'm going to college for mechanics right now so i'm not really worried about being able to tune anything... i also have quite a few mechanics for friends... but since i'm in college i'm also working with a low budget... how much money do you think i could do this for using used parts and self tuning the system? i know i just asked a lot of questions but as always TIA for all the help!

you guys rock!

Bryan

T_C_D · Post by **T_C_D** » Oct 09, 2005 8:26 PM

We'll assume the k27 will flow enough air to make 400rwhp. I do not know if that is the case. At a minimum this is what you'll need.

b35 cyl head on b34 block or complete b35 motor
MLS head gasket and ARP head studs
3" downpipe and exhaust
very efficient and properly sized intercooler and piping (all mandrel bent)
injectors and engine managment that will support 20psi
some sort of boost control
clutch
sub frame bushings
diff mount

That list really simplifies it. 400rwhp and "budget" don't really go hand in hand.

Todd

Duke · Post by **Duke** » Oct 09, 2005 9:26 PM

[QUOTE="bmwfan2304"]i'm going to college for mechanics right now so i'm not really worried about being able to tune anything... i also have quite a few mechanics for friends... [/QUOTE]

????.....NOT TUNE......????? All you will end up with us a melted engine. Tuning is the MOST important part of a properly running engine. You may get the 400hp (longshot) but it will be for only a few seconds/minutes before meltdown or BOOM! or are you saying that the instructors at the college will know how to tune a custom turbo system??

Are all of you mechanic friends have experience with custom turbo systems?

Skeen · Post by **Skeen** » Oct 09, 2005 10:08 PM

I believe he's saying he's going to learn how to tune it at school, so he doesn't anticipate that being a problem.

gol10dr1 · Post by **gol10dr1** » Oct 10, 2005 1:59 AM

i really wish people would stop asking how to build a FI system on a "budget." it just doesn't happen

bmwfan2304 · Post by **bmwfan2304** » Oct 10, 2005 2:21 AM

[QUOTE="Duke M535Ti"]????.....NOT TUNE......????? All you will end up with us a melted engine. Tuning is the MOST important part of a properly running engine. You may get the 400hp (longshot) but it will be for only a few seconds/minutes before meltdown or BOOM! or are you saying that the instructors at the college will know how to tune a custom turbo system??

Are all of you mechanic friends have experience with custom turbo systems?[/QUOTE]

yeah... lol... ummm... i was only saying that tuning it should be no problem! lol... i know it's important! i wouldn't dream about not tuning it... that doesn't even make sense! lol

and yes.. i have at least 2 friends that have built and tuned their own turbo systems... one of which happens to be a chick that installed and tuned her own turbo motor into her supra.. that thing hauls and is sexy as hell... and i also have a lot of connections to people who own their own shops... but yeah, i'd make sure to do it right.

bmwfan2304 · Post by **bmwfan2304** » Oct 10, 2005 2:24 AM

[QUOTE="gol10dr1"]i really wish people would stop asking how to build a FI system on a "budget." it just doesn't happen[/QUOTE]

haha... i know what you mean. i wasn't saying i want to do it cheap... i was just wondering how cheap it could be done... cuz my budget sucks ass! truely... i don't even make $600 a month! but i'll spend as much as i have to... just checkin my options...

bmwfan2304 · Post by **bmwfan2304** » Oct 10, 2005 2:37 AM

[QUOTE="TCD"]We'll assume the k27 will flow enough air to make 400rwhp. I do not know if that is the case. At a minimum this is what you'll need.

b35 cyl head on b34 block or complete b35 motor
MLS head gasket and ARP head studs
3" downpipe and exhaust
very efficient and properly sized intercooler and piping (all mandrel bent)
injectors and engine managment that will support 20psi
some sort of boost control
clutch
sub frame bushings
diff mount

That list really simplifies it. 400rwhp and "budget" don't really go hand in hand.

Todd[/QUOTE]

the k27 should be capable of 400rwhp... not sure how much more but a guy with a tuning shop down here puts out 400rwhp and 490ft/lbs of tourqe from his 635csi with k27 turbo... thats assuming of course they are honest. (and I don't know if THAT'S the case!)

i have subframe bushings and diff mount as next on my list of stuff to buy... should be only a week or two... all of which will be polyurethane filled.

clutch is already having problems... going to replace that with a SPEC stage 3 6-puck

how much would a b35 head run me? i'm either going to have to have my b34 head rebuilt due to bad valve seals or buy a new one... might as well go with a b35 head... and do those require any modifications to either the b34 block or the b35 head to mate them?

and the MLS head gasket and ARP head studs were already on my list... last i heard though the MLS head gaskets for m30's were still not being mass produced. has this changed?

P.S.

thanks Todd... that list should help me get on my way pretty fast.... i've really been looking for a project that will take a lot of time and work and i'm pretty sure this is the ticket!

bmwfan2304 · Post by **bmwfan2304** » Oct 10, 2005 2:48 AM

i also had a question about fuel delivery... i know i'd need bigger injectors and most likely a stand alone fuel management system... but i was reading through my copy of maximum boost a second time it made me wonder if a stock fuel pump on the 535i would be able to supply enough fuel... would one be fine or would i need 2 pumps to supply enough fuel to the engine while under boost?

T_C_D · Post by **T_C_D** » Oct 10, 2005 9:22 AM

[QUOTE="bmwfan2304"]i also had a question about fuel delivery... i know i'd need bigger injectors and most likely a stand alone fuel management system... but i was reading through my copy of maximum boost a second time it made me wonder if a stock fuel pump on the 535i would be able to supply enough fuel... would one be fine or would i need 2 pumps to supply enough fuel to the engine while under boost?[/QUOTE]

A 255lph in tank pump with suffice.

T_C_D · Post by **T_C_D** » Oct 10, 2005 9:24 AM

the k27 should be capable of 400rwhp... not sure how much more but a guy with a tuning shop down here puts out 400rwhp and 490ft/lbs of tourqe from his 635csi with k27 turbo... thats assuming of course they are honest. (and I don't know if THAT'S the case!)

I have talked to this guy a few times on the telephone. He promised to email me dyno sheets but I never received any. Seems like a nice guy.

Tjn182 · Post by **Tjn182** » Oct 10, 2005 11:19 AM

Most likely your budget is like mine, so small that it barely gets the bills paid and the rest is spent on beer

If that's the case, then building your 400rwhp car is going to take you all 4 years of school. I totally accept the fact that my car will never ever ever ever ever ever reach 400rwhp. I made my goal to be 15psi, and to make the best of 15psi of boost, which will probably only be 300-310rwhp with a good ole' stand alone in the very end.

Now of course when I start my career and I'm living on a nice salary income... I'll have a little extra monies to set to the side for a Duke style project

russc · Post by **russc** » Oct 10, 2005 2:55 PM

You don't need a ECU swap to get 400whp. Sorry to disagree, the M1.0A will do it just fine, with tuning tools off the internet for free. I have all the info on my website and free for the asking, for the most part. You can run 70# injs with the stock DME with just one software change!

You don't HAVE to have a b35 head to make 400whp, do you???? It would help, but I believe that a b33 cam in a b34 head can really help, and as long as you have everything else to support 20psi, you should be able to get to 20psi ie 400whp, thats my belief. Although, I don't think you can do it on pump gas, even the 93 kind.

RussC

DMNaskale · Post by **DMNaskale** » Oct 10, 2005 4:05 PM

A low budget big HP turbo engine would be a challenging and very rewarding project. I don't know if you will get to 400 hp, but you will have fun trying. For starters I would plan on spending a $500 chunk of your budget on a Megasquirt II standalone ECU paired with an Innovate LC-1 wideband O2 system. For that $500 you could get rid of all the old Motronics and you would gain a very capable solution for full ignition and fuel control. Megasquirt has a good user support base, a good programming interface, provides ease in tuning, and a safety factor in being able to really control your AFR when you get into the serious boost levels. You get to clean up your plumbing by not needing an AFM, and you can use cheap and easy to source components. And eBaying the old Motronic parts will put some cash back in the budget. Don't worry about the naysayers, take advantage of the resources available to you and prove it can be done.

bmwfan2304 · Post by **bmwfan2304** » Oct 10, 2005 5:32 PM

[QUOTE="TCD"]I have talked to this guy a few times on the telephone. He promised to email me dyno sheets but I never received any. Seems like a nice guy.[/QUOTE]

yeah... he's a really nice guy... every time i go in to ask questions he's been extremely helpful too...

papajetta · Post by **papajetta** » Nov 17, 2005 9:03 PM

i think the biggest problem of a "budget" turbo car is reliability. assumming this is your daily ride, 20 psi makes the car much less reliable. as you go along the learning curve many things go wrong , even at 6 psi
ex: head gaskets, blow by, running too rich, detonation....
from experience, expect the car to be down.

bmwfan2304 · Post by **bmwfan2304** » Nov 20, 2005 8:07 PM

[QUOTE="papajetta"]i think the biggest problem of a "budget" turbo car is reliability. assumming this is your daily ride, 20 psi makes the car much less reliable. as you go along the learning curve many things go wrong , even at 6 psi
ex: head gaskets, blow by, running too rich, detonation....
from experience, expect the car to be down. [/QUOTE]

yeah i'll definately make sure it's reliable... and expect it to be down... i'm gonna get a turbo head when they are done being built... MLS headgasket, arp head studs... i JUST replaced driveline components from the transmition back... planning on getting a getrag 265 tranny before i do the turbo... then i'm going to have the turbo kit custom built and tuned by a local shop here... it's kind of gone from a "budget" project to a "high-hp" project..

Old School · Post by **Old School** » Feb 05, 2006 12:23 AM

Ok, so could someone answer something for me? Assuming a worked b34 head can support 400whp, and I would assume that it could... is it possible for that tiny, restrictive little 745i exhaust manifold to make that kind of power?? I nearly bought one on ebay, but after seeing the TCD manifold, the 745i piece looks like a sick joke!

Velocewest · Post by **Velocewest** » Feb 05, 2006 2:16 AM

Wow, this thread surfaced from deep in the past. I think you may be misinterpreting the close fit of the BMW manifold to the head as some indication that it is small. The ports are the same as any M30 manifold, and the inside diamter is about 50mm end to end. The outlet is only about 45mm, because that's the size of the inlet on the K27. TCD's mani will take a bigger turbo, but the BMW manifold is not tiny and restrictive.

I think you may run into a barrier getting 400 whp with a K27, though. I can't recall anyone posting that kind of power running the K27, seems like about the best anyone has put up is 340 whp or so? I'm sure someone will correct me. Regardless, if you don't all ready have an M106 engine, I'd buy the TCD manifold for the convenience of a more common turbo flange. Dan Miller has developed an adapter kit to run a T3/04 on a BMW manifold, but I don't know if he'll sell it without the turbo. With the turbo he wants $900.

Rich Euro M5 · Post by **Rich Euro M5** » Feb 05, 2006 9:10 AM

Dan Miller has developed an adapter kit to run a T3/04 on a BMW manifold, but I don't know if he'll sell it without the turbo. With the turbo he wants $900.

$900 is actually a fair price to pay for a setup like this if it does in fact include the T3/04 turbo. What's a new t3/04 turbo with the correct trim to make 20 psi cost new - retail ?? Maybe about $600, could be more depending on who you buy from. Add the cost of having a shop fabricate the custom flanges and you'd be over $900.

Rich

T_C_D · Post by **T_C_D** » Feb 05, 2006 9:26 AM

[QUOTE="Euro M88"]

$900 is actually a fair price to pay for a setup like this if it does in fact include the T3/04 turbo. What's a new t3/04 turbo with the correct trim to make 20 psi cost new - retail ?? Maybe about $600, could be more depending on who you buy from. Add the cost of having a shop fabricate the custom flanges and you'd be over $900.

Rich[/QUOTE]

I would agree if it was a quality Garrett T3/T4 but his kit includes a Chinese Garrett knock off that retails for $299. That's not good.

[Edit by T_C_D on [TIME]1139149844[/TIME]]

Rich Euro M5 · Post by **Rich Euro M5** » Feb 05, 2006 12:35 PM

[QUOTE="Euro M88"]

$900 is actually a fair price to pay for a setup like this if it does in fact include the T3/04 turbo. What's a new t3/04 turbo with the correct trim to make 20 psi cost new - retail ?? Maybe about $600, could be more depending on who you buy from. Add the cost of having a shop fabricate the custom flanges and you'd be over $900.

Rich[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="T_C_D"]I would agree if it was a quality Garrett T3/T4 but his kit includes a Chinese Garrett knock off that retails for $299. That's not good.

[Edit by T_C_D on [TIME]1139149844[/TIME]][/QUOTE]

I agree, if he's selling a cheap Chinese knockoff, then it's not a good deal.

Rich

[Edit by Euro M88 on [TIME]1139194839[/TIME]]

russc · Post by **russc** » Feb 05, 2006 3:18 PM

[QUOTE="Euro M88"]

$900 is actually a fair price to pay for a setup like this if it does in fact include the T3/04 turbo. What's a new t3/04 turbo with the correct trim to make 20 psi cost new - retail ?? Maybe about $600, could be more depending on who you buy from. Add the cost of having a shop fabricate the custom flanges and you'd be over $900.

Rich[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="T_C_D"]I would agree if it was a quality Garrett T3/T4 but his kit includes a Chinese Garrett knock off that retails for $299. That's not good.

[Edit by T_C_D on [TIME]1139149844[/TIME]][/QUOTE]

Actually, with options it can get up to $1k for the turbo with all the options, big shaft, big wheels, water cooled bearing, coatings(inside and out) etc.

RussC

Velocewest · Post by **Velocewest** » Feb 06, 2006 11:50 AM

[QUOTE="Euro M88"]$900 is actually a fair price to pay for a setup like this if it does in fact include the T3/04 turbo. What's a new t3/04 turbo with the correct trim to make 20 psi cost new - retail ?? Maybe about $600, could be more depending on who you buy from. Add the cost of having a shop fabricate the custom flanges and you'd be over $900.

Rich[/QUOTE]

Quality of the turbo aside, you'll still be stuck using the BMW wastegate too.

Can you tell I'm encountering some challenges in my "cheapo" turbo build?

Tjn182 · Post by **Tjn182** » Feb 06, 2006 12:30 PM

Miller does offer a modified tial/bmw wastegate that fits in the stock 745i spot

Velocewest · Post by **Velocewest** » Feb 06, 2006 5:43 PM

[QUOTE="Tjn182"]Miller does offer a modified tial/bmw wastegate that fits in the stock 745i spot[/QUOTE]

Yep. For $8 more than I paid for my whole running 745i...

smackmybutter535i · Post by **smackmybutter535i** » Feb 07, 2006 8:38 PM

Dan Miller has developed an adapter kit to run a T3/04 on a BMW manifold, but I don't know if he'll sell it without the turbo. With the turbo he wants $900.

$900 is actually a fair price to pay for a setup like this if it does in fact include the T3/04 turbo. What's a new t3/04 turbo with the correct trim to make 20 psi cost new - retail ?? Maybe about $600, could be more depending on who you buy from. Add the cost of having a shop fabricate the custom flanges and you'd be over $900.

Rich

Euro M88 wrote:

$900 is actually a fair price to pay for a setup like this if it does in fact include the T3/04 turbo. What's a new t3/04 turbo with the correct trim to make 20 psi cost new - retail ?? Maybe about $600, could be more depending on who you buy from. Add the cost of having a shop fabricate the custom flanges and you'd be over $900.

Rich

Or just hack it up like my kit

Worked great until the turbo got some shaft play.

MyE28.com

MyE28.com

requirements for 400whp turbo system...