Todd, I know that you installed a kit on the E23 733i, and it performed quite well with the more agressive cam. Is there any reason I can't do the same with a 533i? Did you install B34 electronics or is there another reason yours worked and this one won't??
Just trying to plan things out...worst case I'll build up a fresh B34 and install it along with the 059 ECU.
TCD kit on 84 533i...
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Kyle in NO
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Kyle in NO
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Aaron from Aus
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Euro M88 should be able to provide much more information, but in the instance that he doesn't catch this post. . .
What I recall from his comments on the 533i in the past is that the 533i started life as a Euro 528i, just like the Hartge H5S. It was then converted to US spec and had the 3.2L version of the M30 installed. I think the 533i was US market only, which would explain why you don't have them in Aussiland.
It runs a Motronic 1.0 Basic, similar to the 525e/528e's ECU. Power and torque are, of course, short of a 535i, but I don't recall the actual numbers. I think I remember it having a better cam than the 535i, though.
Since it was a US car, it did have a cat.
HTH!
What I recall from his comments on the 533i in the past is that the 533i started life as a Euro 528i, just like the Hartge H5S. It was then converted to US spec and had the 3.2L version of the M30 installed. I think the 533i was US market only, which would explain why you don't have them in Aussiland.
It runs a Motronic 1.0 Basic, similar to the 525e/528e's ECU. Power and torque are, of course, short of a 535i, but I don't recall the actual numbers. I think I remember it having a better cam than the 535i, though.
Since it was a US car, it did have a cat.
HTH!
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Steve Haygood
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The 533i may rev better, but that's only due to the earlier models having a lighter flywheel and all of them have a more aggressive cam than the 535i. A 535i with a 533i/M5 flywheel and 272 (533i) cam should beat a 533i fairly easily. A stock 535i does runs very close to a 533i, however. The 535i will pull ahead in the middle rpm range, the 533i will be faster as the revs increase. Since the e28 is a 4 door sedan, BMW obviously felt torque in the middle-rpm range was better than power up top. More usable in a daily driver.
The 533i cam in a turbo motor has been talked about before. It'll move your peak torque up in terms of engine rpm, generating better hp numbers since the motor breathes better at high rpm. Low and mid range torque will suffer slightly to accomplish this.
Jeremy
The 533i cam in a turbo motor has been talked about before. It'll move your peak torque up in terms of engine rpm, generating better hp numbers since the motor breathes better at high rpm. Low and mid range torque will suffer slightly to accomplish this.
Jeremy
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Aaron from Aus
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Stock US HP ratings were 181 for the 533 and 182 for the 535. I've driven both and to
me they feel the same. I've never done a race or even a timing, but just by feel they seem
the same. 533 had 89 X 86 bore stroke with 8.8:1 compression. 535's had 92 X 86 with
8.0 compression so essentially identical power numbers seem logical.
Apparently 533's until mid to late model year 84 used a 272 cam. Later ones used the
260 cam from the 535. I have both an 83 and 84 E23 and the 84 with (presumeably, I
haven't been into it that far) the 260 cam feels much stronger going thru an auto tranny.
me they feel the same. I've never done a race or even a timing, but just by feel they seem
the same. 533 had 89 X 86 bore stroke with 8.8:1 compression. 535's had 92 X 86 with
8.0 compression so essentially identical power numbers seem logical.
Apparently 533's until mid to late model year 84 used a 272 cam. Later ones used the
260 cam from the 535. I have both an 83 and 84 E23 and the 84 with (presumeably, I
haven't been into it that far) the 260 cam feels much stronger going thru an auto tranny.
absolutely no one has done any tuning for the L-jet cars. The b33, while it has a ECU, is primative compared to the Motrinics 1.0A. There are no "maps" to tune in the b33 electronics, plus the ECU code was spread out in 4 ROMs, making tuning a pain in the ass. Since the ECU are so different in operation, no one really knows what the software does, or how it works. So bigger inj's are very hard to implement without a separte injector controller. Most tune with other methods, FMU, add on ECUs, boost controllers, MAF conversion, but mostly 059 ECU upgrades.
If you have a L-jet, your mostly stuck with a hard nut to tune.
RussC
If you have a L-jet, your mostly stuck with a hard nut to tune.
RussC
Im running the following setup:
535i B34 Bottom and top end
533i cam
533i flywheel
533i 008 ECU (Guessing its the Motronics 1.0A ??)
I dont know of any way to upgrade the injectors or anything without having to run an 059 ecu, or will the 008 ECU accept larger injectors and know what to do with them. So far with the current setup I seem to see boost at around 2800-3000. I have owned a 86 535i 5spd with 3.25lsd, and that seems much faster off the line compared to my 84 533i with 2.93 nonlsd 5spd. Both are great cars, but i think with a LSD, my 533 will be just as fast off thel ine as the 535, but when 3k hits, it will blow everything away
535i B34 Bottom and top end
533i cam
533i flywheel
533i 008 ECU (Guessing its the Motronics 1.0A ??)
I dont know of any way to upgrade the injectors or anything without having to run an 059 ecu, or will the 008 ECU accept larger injectors and know what to do with them. So far with the current setup I seem to see boost at around 2800-3000. I have owned a 86 535i 5spd with 3.25lsd, and that seems much faster off the line compared to my 84 533i with 2.93 nonlsd 5spd. Both are great cars, but i think with a LSD, my 533 will be just as fast off thel ine as the 535, but when 3k hits, it will blow everything away
[QUOTE="Yellow2"]I dont know of any way to upgrade the injectors or anything without having to run an 059 ecu[/QUOTE]
If you're running a 533i ECU and injectors right now, you're good for at least 286 HP. That's what the Euro M5 had, and it ran the same injectors as the 533i. I'm sure many M88 owners have stock injectors and well over 300 HP.
If you need more than that, I think there are some Mustang-style low impedance injectors. Five O Motorsports sells them. I thought I remembered seeing something like that on their site.
If you're running a 533i ECU and injectors right now, you're good for at least 286 HP. That's what the Euro M5 had, and it ran the same injectors as the 533i. I'm sure many M88 owners have stock injectors and well over 300 HP.
If you need more than that, I think there are some Mustang-style low impedance injectors. Five O Motorsports sells them. I thought I remembered seeing something like that on their site.
Ye, I am going to need to get a set of low imped injectors as an upgrade. My question is: when i put theses injectors in, will my ECU nkow what to do with them, and with the stop 19#ers in there right now, if I try to run more boost than the injectors can handle, what is the default thing that car will do to keep me from damaging them or the rest of hte car? Cut off fuel and shut the engine down? Just not have enough fuel and sound like its miss firing?
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Kyle in NO
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I'm pretty sure it was figured out before that you could run high-impedance injectors in a low-impedance engine, but not the other way around. The high impedance ecu can't handle the higher draw of the low impedance injectors, but it doesn't affect the ECU if the injectors draw less power.
Most of the changes in the 533i were made in Jan. '84, at least I'm pretty sure the cam and flywheel were, mine is an August '84 car, and it has the sound deadening, heavy flywheel, weaker cam, all the disadvantages of a 535i, without the extra displacement.
Ian in Portland
'84 533i
Most of the changes in the 533i were made in Jan. '84, at least I'm pretty sure the cam and flywheel were, mine is an August '84 car, and it has the sound deadening, heavy flywheel, weaker cam, all the disadvantages of a 535i, without the extra displacement.
Ian in Portland
'84 533i
Yes, you can run high impedance injs in low impedance system, but its not optimal. The current drivers are tuned to the lower resistance, and are not optimal.
To clarify, the 008 DME is not Motronics, don't call it that, its L-Jetronic. Its software is very different from Motronics. There different beasts. See my above post.
The key with running 008 ECU with larger injs is the range of adaptability of the software. I believe the adaptaion range is relatively small in L-jet, as compared of a real Motronics ECU. The only way to know is to try a bigger inj and see if it can run idle and part throttle at stochiometric. Or, if it's L-Jet with Lamba control, adjust fuel properly at the same points.If not, then your stuck tuning the car with other means, again, see my above post in this thread.
The 19lb high impd injs are good to 300hp crank with a FMU, and thats really pushing it. Not sure if the 19lb low impd injs can run more or not.
RussC
[Edit by russc on [TIME]1136834210[/TIME]]
To clarify, the 008 DME is not Motronics, don't call it that, its L-Jetronic. Its software is very different from Motronics. There different beasts. See my above post.
The key with running 008 ECU with larger injs is the range of adaptability of the software. I believe the adaptaion range is relatively small in L-jet, as compared of a real Motronics ECU. The only way to know is to try a bigger inj and see if it can run idle and part throttle at stochiometric. Or, if it's L-Jet with Lamba control, adjust fuel properly at the same points.If not, then your stuck tuning the car with other means, again, see my above post in this thread.
The 19lb high impd injs are good to 300hp crank with a FMU, and thats really pushing it. Not sure if the 19lb low impd injs can run more or not.
RussC
[Edit by russc on [TIME]1136834210[/TIME]]
[QUOTE="russc"]To clarify, the 008 DME is not Motronics, don't call it that, its L-Jetronic. Its software is very different from Motronics. There different beasts.
RussC[/QUOTE]
The 008 ECU, along with the close relative 007 eta ecu are both Motronic 1.0 Basic. The 535i has Motronic 1.0 Adaptive. Ljetronic did not come on any US market E28s. It is still easier to install a 535i Harness and ECU than to guinea pig your way through 533i turbo tuning. Who said easier was more fun though?
Also the 533 is a B32. DME Repair + matrix of BMW ECUs
[Edit by pdx 528e on [TIME]1136838098[/TIME]]
RussC[/QUOTE]
The 008 ECU, along with the close relative 007 eta ecu are both Motronic 1.0 Basic. The 535i has Motronic 1.0 Adaptive. Ljetronic did not come on any US market E28s. It is still easier to install a 535i Harness and ECU than to guinea pig your way through 533i turbo tuning. Who said easier was more fun though?
Also the 533 is a B32. DME Repair + matrix of BMW ECUs
[Edit by pdx 528e on [TIME]1136838098[/TIME]]
That M1.0 Basic is for 1 year I believe, the '84 crossover point into Motronics for the E28. Before that the b32 is L-Jet on E28.
RussC
[QUOTE="russc"]To clarify, the 008 DME is not Motronics, don't call it that, its L-Jetronic. Its software is very different from Motronics. There different beasts.
RussC[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="pdx 528e"]
The 008 ECU, along with the close relative 007 eta ecu are both Motronic 1.0 Basic. The 535i has Motronic 1.0 Adaptive. Ljetronic did not come on any US market E28s. It is still easier to install a 535i Harness and ECU than to guinea pig your way through 533i turbo tuning. Who said easier was more fun though?
Also the 533 is a B32. DME Repair + matrix of BMW ECUs
[Edit by pdx 528e on [TIME]1136838098[/TIME]][/QUOTE]
RussC
[QUOTE="russc"]To clarify, the 008 DME is not Motronics, don't call it that, its L-Jetronic. Its software is very different from Motronics. There different beasts.
RussC[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE="pdx 528e"]
The 008 ECU, along with the close relative 007 eta ecu are both Motronic 1.0 Basic. The 535i has Motronic 1.0 Adaptive. Ljetronic did not come on any US market E28s. It is still easier to install a 535i Harness and ECU than to guinea pig your way through 533i turbo tuning. Who said easier was more fun though?
Also the 533 is a B32. DME Repair + matrix of BMW ECUs
[Edit by pdx 528e on [TIME]1136838098[/TIME]][/QUOTE]
E23 and E24s with M30B32 engines did have L-jet, but even 82 production year 533i's came with the Motronic 1.0 Basic DME. The part number did not change through the run of the 533i. I guess its a moot point though, as adapting the Motronic would still be less than adequate without a chip.
The E28 was developed during a campaign to reduce emissions and cut down on fuel consumption, hence the E28 was the first car with the consumption meter inset under the tachometer (M5 is sans meter). Same reason that all US E28s cut fuel when rolling/coasting at idle with the transmission engaged. These features arrived with the introduction of Motronic.
Ljet utilizes a mechanical/vacuum distributor, and I believe it has the old M30 intake manifold (long plenum).
The E28 was developed during a campaign to reduce emissions and cut down on fuel consumption, hence the E28 was the first car with the consumption meter inset under the tachometer (M5 is sans meter). Same reason that all US E28s cut fuel when rolling/coasting at idle with the transmission engaged. These features arrived with the introduction of Motronic.
Ljet utilizes a mechanical/vacuum distributor, and I believe it has the old M30 intake manifold (long plenum).
I have two 008 ECUs in my garage, one from my Aug '84 and one from a Jan '83 from the yard. The one in my '84 has a motronic sticker on it, but the one from the '83 does not. They are interchangeable. I'm really sure that a motronic ecu and a l-jet one are not interchangeable.
Ian in Portland
'84 533i 175k
Ian in Portland
'84 533i 175k
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Aaron from Aus
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[QUOTE="russc"]absolutely no one has done any tuning for the L-jet cars. The b33, while it has a ECU, is primative compared to the Motrinics 1.0A. There are no "maps" to tune in the b33 electronics, plus the ECU code was spread out in 4 ROMs, making tuning a pain in the ass. Since the ECU are so different in operation, no one really knows what the software does, or how it works. So bigger inj's are very hard to implement without a separte injector controller. Most tune with other methods, FMU, add on ECUs, boost controllers, MAF conversion, but mostly 059 ECU upgrades.
If you have a L-jet, your mostly stuck with a hard nut to tune.
RussC[/QUOTE]
Yeh i know...Got all the stuff i need though. Encrichment cirucit and a Digital fuel interceptor (sits between the AFM and ECU and you can map 128 Load points. Should work a treat...also works on Motronic cars as well,,,,you can buy it from Jaycar electronics in Kit form.
If you have a L-jet, your mostly stuck with a hard nut to tune.
RussC[/QUOTE]
Yeh i know...Got all the stuff i need though. Encrichment cirucit and a Digital fuel interceptor (sits between the AFM and ECU and you can map 128 Load points. Should work a treat...also works on Motronic cars as well,,,,you can buy it from Jaycar electronics in Kit form.
Its seemed that all every one ever said, from other sources also that the 008 box is L-Jetronic, not a full blown Motronic. If that info is erronious, then so be it. As long as the box from a certain year has the 008 part #, there interchangable. The 059 box will not interchange with a 008(duh).
Ive seen the inside of all the DME through '93. BMW used the same design for many many years. Metal box, two 2-layer pcbs. One analog, the other digital. The design changed many time(probably more than 10 interation) over that 15yr period. Way more software revisions than anybody knows.
Again, with the 088, you'll need other stuff to make a big turbo system work.
RussC
Ive seen the inside of all the DME through '93. BMW used the same design for many many years. Metal box, two 2-layer pcbs. One analog, the other digital. The design changed many time(probably more than 10 interation) over that 15yr period. Way more software revisions than anybody knows.
Again, with the 088, you'll need other stuff to make a big turbo system work.
RussC
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Rich Euro M5
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- Location: Klein, Texas
[QUOTE="russc"]absolutely no one has done any tuning for the L-jet cars. The b33, while it has a ECU, is primative compared to the Motrinics 1.0A. There are no "maps" to tune in the b33 electronics, plus the ECU code was spread out in 4 ROMs, making tuning a pain in the ass. Since the ECU are so different in operation, no one really knows what the software does, or how it works. So bigger inj's are very hard to implement without a separte injector controller. Most tune with other methods, FMU, add on ECUs, boost controllers, MAF conversion, but mostly 059 ECU upgrades.
If you have a L-jet, your mostly stuck with a hard nut to tune.
RussC[/QUOTE]
Russ,
At one point FR Wilke offered a piggyback socket upgrade for the ECU which deletes the four ROM setup and replaces it with a standard 24 pin EEPROM. He might still ofer this simply due to the fact the early Porsche 944 NA cars used a base Motronic ECU very similar if not the same as the 533i.
The ECU in my 533i had been chipped by Autothority when they offered the an ECU upgrade for the 533i. Autothority's chip upgrade was essentially the same as the one FR Wilke offers for the Porsche ECU.
There are some very distint differences between the ECU used in the 533i and the 535i. In actuality the 533i has a more sophisticated injector driver circuit. The 533i has a Peak / Hold injector driver and utilizes low impedence injectors (same as M5) . The 059 ECU is using a simple current driver and high impedence injectors. The 533i ECU also contains a circuit to drive the purge solenoid for the Carbon Cannister.. One other difference is the output voltage to the AFM. The 533i ECU supplies +9 V to the AFM vs +%5 V for the later 059 ECUs.
IMO, a chipped 533i ECU would make a very good base ECU for Turbo applications simply because it has a Peak / Hold injector driver. There are some very high flow injectors available when you utilize Lo-Z injectors. Split Second makes a mIcroprocesssor based MAF conversion compatable with the +9Volt AFM Reference Voltage, and I believe others do as well. So one could go MAF, MAS, or Alpha-N using a Piggyback and have full control the Fuel and Timing Maps from the driver's seat.
A downside to the 533i ECU is the way in which the Idle Control Valve (ICV) is handled. The ECU doesn't drive the ICV directly like the 059 ECU. The 533i system has a seperate external Idle Control MOdule which drives a two wire ICV. This is the same setup used in the 528e and E30 325e. The ICV is PW modulated and buzzes when the circuit is energized. The 059 ECU directly drives a 3-wire ICV.
Rich
If you have a L-jet, your mostly stuck with a hard nut to tune.
RussC[/QUOTE]
Russ,
At one point FR Wilke offered a piggyback socket upgrade for the ECU which deletes the four ROM setup and replaces it with a standard 24 pin EEPROM. He might still ofer this simply due to the fact the early Porsche 944 NA cars used a base Motronic ECU very similar if not the same as the 533i.
The ECU in my 533i had been chipped by Autothority when they offered the an ECU upgrade for the 533i. Autothority's chip upgrade was essentially the same as the one FR Wilke offers for the Porsche ECU.
There are some very distint differences between the ECU used in the 533i and the 535i. In actuality the 533i has a more sophisticated injector driver circuit. The 533i has a Peak / Hold injector driver and utilizes low impedence injectors (same as M5) . The 059 ECU is using a simple current driver and high impedence injectors. The 533i ECU also contains a circuit to drive the purge solenoid for the Carbon Cannister.. One other difference is the output voltage to the AFM. The 533i ECU supplies +9 V to the AFM vs +%5 V for the later 059 ECUs.
IMO, a chipped 533i ECU would make a very good base ECU for Turbo applications simply because it has a Peak / Hold injector driver. There are some very high flow injectors available when you utilize Lo-Z injectors. Split Second makes a mIcroprocesssor based MAF conversion compatable with the +9Volt AFM Reference Voltage, and I believe others do as well. So one could go MAF, MAS, or Alpha-N using a Piggyback and have full control the Fuel and Timing Maps from the driver's seat.
A downside to the 533i ECU is the way in which the Idle Control Valve (ICV) is handled. The ECU doesn't drive the ICV directly like the 059 ECU. The 533i system has a seperate external Idle Control MOdule which drives a two wire ICV. This is the same setup used in the 528e and E30 325e. The ICV is PW modulated and buzzes when the circuit is energized. The 059 ECU directly drives a 3-wire ICV.
Rich
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Rich Euro M5
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[QUOTE="Matt"]Do the 533 and M88 run at the same fuel pressure? The FPR might be higher on the M88, and the ecu would need to know this, even if the injectors were the same size.
It seems weird that you'd use exactly the same injectors / fpr with a 100hp difference. Big injectors make idling harder...[/QUOTE]
The 533i has a 2.5 B FPR while the E28 M5 uses a 3.0 B. My experience tuning a NA 533i is that 2.5 Bar wasn't enough and 3.0 B was too much. Hence the use of a RRFPR to tailor the fuel pressure to the engine's requirements. Crude but effective.
Rich
It seems weird that you'd use exactly the same injectors / fpr with a 100hp difference. Big injectors make idling harder...[/QUOTE]
The 533i has a 2.5 B FPR while the E28 M5 uses a 3.0 B. My experience tuning a NA 533i is that 2.5 Bar wasn't enough and 3.0 B was too much. Hence the use of a RRFPR to tailor the fuel pressure to the engine's requirements. Crude but effective.
Rich