So, anyone wanting to inject some blue windshield cleaning fluid into their turbo monsters? You can up the boost or it can add some safety margin. I would think on a really hot day (like today, its 102 out side...IRAQ SUCKS!) it would work great.
I think you could just run a line of the windshield washer fluid container.........I always have mine full and never use it.
Water Injection...........any thoughts.
I'm an advocate of water injection for a number of reasons.
Duke, If you're interested, send me a PM with your email addy and I'll send over a copy of:
1) War Time Report from September 1944 (article on water injection of aircraft engines) and,
2) Report # 756 from Langley Memorial Aeronautical Laboratory (article on water injection of aircraft engines); August 15th , 1942
Good reading if you want to start from the begining with pretty dag gone good sources...
Duke, If you're interested, send me a PM with your email addy and I'll send over a copy of:
1) War Time Report from September 1944 (article on water injection of aircraft engines) and,
2) Report # 756 from Langley Memorial Aeronautical Laboratory (article on water injection of aircraft engines); August 15th , 1942
Good reading if you want to start from the begining with pretty dag gone good sources...
I don't about using windshield washer fluid (not that I think it's a bad idea, I'm sure it's been done), but water injection is probably going to be the next step on my own turbo adventure, before intercooling.
It's the only charge cooling measure that can actually achieve >100% efficiency! You just can't beat that. Well, ok, that and nitrous, but I don't consider nitrous to be just a charge cooling measure . . .
Jeremy
It's the only charge cooling measure that can actually achieve >100% efficiency! You just can't beat that. Well, ok, that and nitrous, but I don't consider nitrous to be just a charge cooling measure . . .
Jeremy
Why not run E85 instead?
More power, more boost, more spark advance, cooler combustion temps, and uncle sam subsidizes all of it?
If you're running programmable standalone, E85 is worth trying. An audi guy i know took his 110 race gas program and filled with E85. He found that there was boost and spark left in the 110 tables on E85.
he's running a 2.2L audi engine with well over 20psi of boost.
More power, more boost, more spark advance, cooler combustion temps, and uncle sam subsidizes all of it?
If you're running programmable standalone, E85 is worth trying. An audi guy i know took his 110 race gas program and filled with E85. He found that there was boost and spark left in the 110 tables on E85.
he's running a 2.2L audi engine with well over 20psi of boost.
Matt wrote:he's running a 2.2L audi engine with well over 20psi of boost.
Sorry to hijack Duke's thread, but is that the Audi 80/90 guy with like 30 psi of boost and like 500 HP or something? I've seen his website and a few videos. Freaking INSANE.
On topic, how can you achieve 100% efficiency with water injection if the water evaporates as steam?
Intercooler efficiency is, let's say, 75%. OK, so your intercooler got rid of 75% of the heat that was created when the air was compressed. After the intercooler, you inject some water (or most likely water/methanol) into the intake through a nozzle or two. This, of course, turns to steam. Creating steam from water uses energy, the energy (heat) in this case being taken away from the the charge air in the form of reducing the charge air temperature.shifty wrote:On topic, how can you achieve 100% efficiency with water injection if the water evaporates as steam?
Under the right conditions, the charge air temp can be actually be lowered to the point where it's cooler going into the motor than it was at the turbo inlet.
Charge air temp < Inlet air temp = >100% efficiency.
Jeremy
Ermm.. depends. Are you talking about Javad? He runs 034motorsport.com and has the red Audi 80 with the 20vt engine. He's up over 800hp nowshifty wrote:Matt wrote:he's running a 2.2L audi engine with well over 20psi of boost.
Sorry to hijack Duke's thread, but is that the Audi 80/90 guy with like 30 psi of boost and like 500 HP or something? I've seen his website and a few videos. Freaking INSANE.
The guy i was speaking of was not him, but also hangs out and posts on Motorgeek.com (which Javad runs and posts to constantly). This guy running E85 also has an 80/90, and i think he is still on a 10v motor.. running E85 and making around 400hp?
There are a few guys on motorgeek from Sweden that also run E85 on stock fueling system.
Apparently, the claims of E85 rotting out engine components are sometimes overblown. Most of the swedes run them on unmodified cars and have for years.
I'm just saying - someone should do a TCD E85 car and cover it with "CLEAN ENERGY" and "SUPPORT LOCAL FARMERS" and "END FOREIGN OIL DEPENDANCE" stickers... all while pushing 400whp
Umm,
W/A inj is a good solution, but how its implemented will determine how well it works. The lower end "kits" don't work that well as there just on/off injection. The guys runing the low end kits at BF.c haven't gotten the results they wanted. The best solution Ive seen is the kit the injects the coolant just like the engine inj's do, PWM'd using the cars inj duty cycle as the W/A injection modifier. Thats to say, the W/A is injected the same way as the fuel is. This gives much better control over the amount being injected and gives much better and more CONSISTANT results. It appears that switching the W/A on at a point really slams the fuel mixture into the engine and causes more trouble than benefit.
The winsheild waster fluid is the coolant of choice.
On E85, I just watched a spot on TV where you can purchase the equipment to make ethanol. Essentially a still and fermentation tank. Cost is ~$1/gallon if you have a free heat source to boil off the alcohol. Makes ~5gal/hr.
RussC
W/A inj is a good solution, but how its implemented will determine how well it works. The lower end "kits" don't work that well as there just on/off injection. The guys runing the low end kits at BF.c haven't gotten the results they wanted. The best solution Ive seen is the kit the injects the coolant just like the engine inj's do, PWM'd using the cars inj duty cycle as the W/A injection modifier. Thats to say, the W/A is injected the same way as the fuel is. This gives much better control over the amount being injected and gives much better and more CONSISTANT results. It appears that switching the W/A on at a point really slams the fuel mixture into the engine and causes more trouble than benefit.
The winsheild waster fluid is the coolant of choice.
On E85, I just watched a spot on TV where you can purchase the equipment to make ethanol. Essentially a still and fermentation tank. Cost is ~$1/gallon if you have a free heat source to boil off the alcohol. Makes ~5gal/hr.
RussC
FREE? I have not gotten anything for FREE yet! I am just to the point where I am doing enough quantity that I don't have to beg vendors to do business with me.Duke M535ti wrote:Maybe TCD can do some R&D on the various water injection kits and make a reccomendation................better yet, offer it as a option.
I am willing to bet that the various vendors would be willing to send TCD kits for free.
Todd
Todd,T_C_D wrote:FREE? I have not gotten anything for FREE yet! I am just to the point where I am doing enough quantity that I don't have to beg vendors to do business with me.Duke M535ti wrote:Maybe TCD can do some R&D on the various water injection kits and make a reccomendation................better yet, offer it as a option.
I am willing to bet that the various vendors would be willing to send TCD kits for free.
Todd
How about a private label TCD water injection system?
I have schematics for an engine water injection system that will allow load/RPM based switch on for water injection, intercooler pump, and other items. It also allows water injector nozzle output increase as a function of boost, RPM, temps etc.
It's essential to have quality injector nozzles when using variable water flow. Otherwise, the water won't atomize properly at low RPM/boost/temp and may lack sufficient surface area to absorb maximum energy.
I think for most of the commercial water injections systems, there’s less cooling of the intake charge than there is slowing of thermal attack within the combustion chamber. While these are closely related concepts, they are distinct; it is possible for intake charge temperature to increase while at the same time reducing unwanted detonation even though reduced intake charge temperature is associated with reduced detonation.Jeremy wrote:shifty wrote:After the intercooler, you inject some water (or most likely water/methanol) into the intake through a nozzle or two. This, of course, turns to steam. Creating steam from water uses energy, the energy (heat) in this case being taken away from the charge air in the form of reducing the charge air temperature...
Jeremy
If you’re running without an intercooler, the intake charge temperature may well be high enough to turn water into “steam” but that is unlikely on engines with intercoolers. For that to happen, the approach would need to exceed ambient air and intake charge temperatures would obviously be 212 deg and above. At that point, I’d be wondering what the pressure drop across the intercooler was...
Please send me these plans!! Sounds perfect. What is great about using the windshield washer container, you will get an indicator when you need to refill it.M635CSi wrote:
I have schematics for an engine water injection system that will allow load/RPM based switch on for water injection, intercooler pump, and other items. It also allows water injector nozzle output increase as a function of boost, RPM, temps etc.
It's essential to have quality injector nozzles when using variable water flow. Otherwise, the water won't atomize properly at low RPM/boost/temp and may lack sufficient surface area to absorb maximum energy.
