84 533i turbo build thread

Discussion pertaining to positive pressure E28s.
r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

tschultz wrote:Looks great, interested to see your intake!
Thanks tschultz! A live audience is good motivation. I have suspension stuff showing up this week.

The engine shop says definitely this week the short block will be done. then I can get the ATI damper installed and scope out intake dimensions.

Cometic MLS gasket looks as though it will be delayed, but I will use factory gasket for mock up.

Is there anything that needs to be done to the gearbox internals that I should be aware of? And can anyone with more experience confirm that the previous photo of my transmission is a getrag 265? I see no indicator markings and can only note the detachable bellhousing.
mitch5
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by mitch5 »

I have not seen many, roots type superchargerd m30. Will be interesting to see what you come up with on the intake, do you plan to maintain the stock injector location? The tricky part i imagine will be getting the intake with supercharger to align with the belt pulley, considering you are fabricating from scratch.

What made you decide to go with the supercharger since i assume(based on title) you initially planned to go turbo.
r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

mitch5 wrote:I have not seen many, roots type superchargerd m30. Will be interesting to see what you come up with on the intake, do you plan to maintain the stock injector location? The tricky part i imagine will be getting the intake with supercharger to align with the belt pulley, considering you are fabricating from scratch.

What made you decide to go with the supercharger since i assume(based on title) you initially planned to go turbo.
I ended up having the forged pistons made, then ended up getting the MRT adaptor hub to fit an ATI damper, so I thought that I was not too far from the supercharger as we were already building a custom intake manifold. Still keeping the turbo hence the roots supercharger, as I was told that if we are going to feed the blower with the turbo that the best type to use would be roots.
mitch5
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by mitch5 »

It sounds like you are doing a compound/twin charge boost setup, turbo feeding the blower. I would really recommend just sticking with the turbo, the plumbing in the e28 in will be a nightmare, controlling boost will tough and tuning will be equally as tough. You didnt mention engine management but your going to need a full standalone.

You can do some searching on compound setups but almost everyone ends up going back to a single turbo from the builds i have seen. This guy made it work for his m20(i think?) and it gives good insight into just how involved a setup like this is.
r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

mitch5 wrote:It sounds like you are doing a compound/twin charge boost setup, turbo feeding the blower. I would really recommend just sticking with the turbo, the plumbing in the e28 in will be a nightmare, controlling boost will tough and tuning will be equally as tough. You didnt mention engine management but your going to need a full standalone.

You can do some searching on compound setups but almost everyone ends up going back to a single turbo from the builds i have seen. This guy made it work for his m20(i think?) and it gives good insight into just how involved a setup like this is.
Yea that is the idea at this point, we are going to run ms3 and I have an idea for reducing the plumbing complexity. I am too far down the rabbit hole at this point not to push forward. We will be using a speed density map and I have a reputable tuner working with me on the sensor side of things, he has a fair degree of confidence that the compound setup will work if managed with a speed/density formula.

The major hurdle at this point is the manifold and how to fit the blower in the most effective way.
mitch5
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by mitch5 »

I'm all for someone trying something new and this will be a hell of a build so i hope you succeed.

As for the intake, going full custom is going to be alot of work, you have to get the injector angle right, figure out runner length then make a whole pleumn that will mount the super charger and align it with the crank. Goodntight made a really sweet one for his turbo build but i dont thick a log style with long straight runners will work for a super charger(too long a pulley).

I know you have the flange made but i would suggest using a stock intake and modifying it. you get all the correct geometry for the injectors and port angle and only have to worry about aligning it.

early m30 ljet intake then building a pleum to bolt on, i dont really know how large that blower is so it might get in the way of the hood. but that would keep the pully close. dowside is you would need to remove the blower to acess anything.

or

use a b34 style intake and lop off the back of it similar to what people do to a reverse style manifold, then i would make a nice template of 1/2 aluminum and weld that to the intake . The blower would sit sideways in this setup.

I would read up on intake design and runner length to make sure you are in the ballpark for how much air youll be putting through that engine. The biggest thing with fi setups is to have a large plenum volume that allows for somewhat even air distribution to the cylinders.
r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

*Duplicate post*
Last edited by r.martin on Aug 10, 2019 1:38 AM, edited 1 time in total.
r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

mitch5 wrote:I'm all for someone trying something new and this will be a hell of a build so i hope you succeed.

As for the intake, going full custom is going to be alot of work, you have to get the injector angle right, figure out runner length then make a whole pleumn that will mount the super charger and align it with the crank. Goodntight made a really sweet one for his turbo build but i dont thick a log style with long straight runners will work for a super charger(too long a pulley).

I know you have the flange made but i would suggest using a stock intake and modifying it. you get all the correct geometry for the injectors and port angle and only have to worry about aligning it.

early m30 ljet intake then building a pleum to bolt on, i dont really know how large that blower is so it might get in the way of the hood. but that would keep the pully close. dowside is you would need to remove the blower to acess anything.

or

use a b34 style intake and lop off the back of it similar to what people do to a reverse style manifold, then i would make a nice template of 1/2 aluminum and weld that to the intake . The blower would sit sideways in this setup.

I would read up on intake design and runner length to make sure you are in the ballpark for how much air youll be putting through that engine. The biggest thing with fi setups is to have a large plenum volume that allows for somewhat even air distribution to the cylinders.
Thank you very much for taking the time to provide such input. The manifold Is definitely turning out to be challenging. I am waiting until the engine is in the car to determine how to proceed. Taking a break from the suspension assembly to write this. I have been reading about the injector angle and you are completely correct that this is crucial.

Also the M90 produces 90 ci of displacement per revolution. The current pulley that I have is 4.25" and my ATI damper is 7.5". My math tells me that for each revolution of the crank I'll be getting just over 1.75 revs of the blower therefor ~158ci (~2589cc) of displacement per crank revolution. I feel this is fairly low boost from the blower. Would I be correct in thinking this? our displacement is essentially stock 3.2L
mitch5
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by mitch5 »

Speaking purely from a point of the super charger its a simple calculation. Here is a website to do the math for you
http://www.performancetrends.com/Calcul ... ulator.php

10 psi is what i would expect at some max rpm , to some circles that is low boost(dsm) but other guys (v8) may consider that high boost. 10 psi is reasonable for the m30 with studs.

but boost does not directly correlate to engine power(airflow)

also that math doesnt tell you much, doesnt account for how your engine flows, doesnt account for that turbo you plan to stick on.

I would prefer to make a calculator in excel that allows me to plot everything in terms of rpm with calculations done in cfm. You have some fixed constants like displacment of the sc and engine but you dont have a turbo so that is variable.

heres how i might do it, could be totally wrong so i would research

start with a power goal
figure out required airflow for powergoal, account for power losses
determine how you want to make that power, you want it to be low end and streetable or high rpm
Things can get real complicated if you were going to grind a custom cam but if your using a stock cam then you know where the engine is at its max flow.
i have never designed a compound setup so i would start with the turbo and size it for what your goal is, so maybe a large turbo ran at low boost with lots of airflow
determine what turbo you will use and grab the compressor map, i imagine this will be trial and error
the tricky part will then be balancing the pulley size of the sc and the wastegate pressure of the turbo to get the desired airflow to the engine. This is where i imagine tunning will be a bitch.

I'm missing more details on this and could probably go on an engineering ramble. My opinion though is to ditch the sc and just keep the turbo, you can easily make 500 hp with a turbo. Typing all of that made me realize there is no reason you would need two sources of compressing air for an m30 unless you were trying to break 1000 hp.
r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

Again Mitch, thank you for taking the time to contribute.

My tuner echoed much of what you said, that this motor could easily produce 500hp with the turbo alone and that there would be some complexities when it comes to tuning a compound setup. I consider the decision of how to go about achieving that number similar to a comparison of Casio vs Blacpain, both achieve excellent results and perform the same operation, but one makes a statement that is absent in the other. I'm kind of an eccentric guy and just can't get this bug out of my head, so we have to at least see if it is possible.

Here is the damper I will be using, 7.5" for an SBC
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Adapter hub with integrated trigger wheel from MRT
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Damper to pulley comparison.
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I was under the impression that the m30 head prevented the motor from reaching anywhere close to 1000hp, is this truth?

Here is the update on the suspension, I pulled a late night and got the front struts nearly finished. Many of the roads where I live are in poor condition so I had to go with something that offered adjustability.

Tacked together
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The top mount.
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Painted and test fit.
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r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

So aside from supercharger fitment issues.... I have a swaybar fitment issue... :?

The new steering rack interferes with the swaybar under maximum lock, and this issue is exaggerated when the suspension gets lower... Joy.

I guess I am now looking into a custom swaybar among other things. I guess I am just glad that I did not buy a high end sway bar.

Here are the pics.

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r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

Fixed the sway bar issue. I wasn't thinking last night, all I needed to do was extend the swaybar links.
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spaze34
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by spaze34 »

What clutch is that if you don't mind me asking.... clutchmasters?

r.martin wrote:I am unsure of the pressure plate, I purchased it based on dimensions, perhaps not the smartest idea.
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The block is supposed to get machined this week........
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The head was being assembled last I was at the shop.
Note: I did correct the builder on the use of the lock collars and shims as I had failed to provide the documentation.
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And I believe the gearbox we now have is a Getrag 265 as it has a detachable bellhousing.

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And there is one experimental idea that I am working on, that I am withholding details on until I am confident it will work, as I have seen two other threads where the OP posted about similar plans and then flamed out.
r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

Spaze, that is one I had custom made from California Clutch, I called told them the measurements and input spline dimensions. Those guys were really good. I dont recall the costbut it was reasonable, maybe ~$350.
r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

So here is the suspension maxed out. It was one hell of a weekend, and thank God that I bought that old lathe, one of the most useful tools. This was not nearly as easy going as Stanceworks made it out to be, but now knowing the caveats of air installation I could probably do it again in half the time.

I still don't have the air manifold so I can only show max height right now.

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r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

Ok, FINALLY, my block is being assembled, thank God, as it feels like an eternity since there was a motor in this car.

But first here is a photo I forgot to include of me cutting the suspension top mounts. A 6" lathe is perfect to cut these.
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Fitting and gaping the rings.
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The builder was quite impressed with the construction of our stock rods.
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I took this photo in case anyone is looking for the data on the pistons I've used. They are from RaceTec and here are the numbers. they are modeled for a stock~ bore m30b32.
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r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

Thankfully allot has happened since the last post.

The engine is finally done... or at least as far as the shop is concerned...
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And the air bags are functional.
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T_C_D
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by T_C_D »

Why is the MLS so thick?
r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

T_C_D wrote:Why is the MLS so thick?
our concern was higher boost pressure with the compound compressor setup.


I have run into an issue, with blower positioning which I knew was coming. Sounds stupid but the oild dipstick is right in the same space that I want to put my output chamber and AWIC from the eaton. I know I can install an electronic level to check oil but I am leary about relying on an electronic sensor for something so crucial. This dipstick issue presents an excellent opportunity to alter the oil system, to a system where I can check the oil by eye and free up some ground clearance, as well as put vacuum to the drain line of the turbo.
r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

What is this? We could not figure out where this went.
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r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

Finally something you guys may actually be interested to see.
Got the motor in for mock up purposes.
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Did some test fitting and confirmed that the dipstick has to go, and machined this plug. Made it a bit oversized in case I need to reverse this later.
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Pressed into the block
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Did some drilling on the blower adapter plate, then had it milled.
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And most important, I made headway in getting the blower mocked up. Still need to source a water to air core but here is as it stands.
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Any comments or feedback is welcome, sometimes I start to think it is just me here. :roll:
2dye4
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by 2dye4 »

Amazing work, cant wait to see the final build.
r.martin
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by r.martin »

2dye4 wrote:Amazing work, cant wait to see the final build.
Thank you, much appreciated.
marc79euro645
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by marc79euro645 »

definitely a cool project, I'm real interested in how it turns out.
good luck!
mitch5
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Re: 84 533i turbo build thread

Post by mitch5 »

What are your plans with the intake? I would mock up all the powersteering stuff before starting on the intake. Maybe its just the camera angle but it seems like the blower is mounted fairly low. I would aim for a fairly straight shot from the output of the blower to the intake port.

Do you have back up plans for a dipstick? you could probably heat the tube up and bend it so you can access
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