TCD now has my M535ti....let OPERATION FIX MY *HIT.........

[russc]

Now is the time to do it since my engine will soon be in many pieces.

I quoted this from TCDs dyno thread. In Pieces

Wow, did we miss somthing? You have to tear the engine down

RussC

[Duke]

Wow, did we miss somthing? You have to tear the engine down
RussC

Worst case.

Head gets pulled today and checked. If it get a tumbs up, engine comes out for the same treatment. We are thinking its a spun bearing or wrist pin problem. Have new pistons on standby if needed.

Nothing like paying for things to be done twice due to dishonest assholes.

[rundatrack]

Wow, did we miss somthing? You have to tear the engine down
RussC

Worst case.

Head gets pulled today and checked. If it get a tumbs up, engine comes out for the same treatment. We are thinking its a spun bearing or wrist pin problem. Have new pistons on standby if needed.

Nothing like paying for things to be done twice due to dishonest assholes.

How do you know that its strictly on the vendor?

[Duke]

Todd just pulled the head.

The results. He tells me that the short block is challenged. Scoring on all of the cylinder walls, indications of over heating and the turbo bearing is shot and will need rebuild. He is thinking oil starvation.

The only thing is, I have oil pressure and temp gauges, and they never read out of normal. Water temp the same, always in the normal range. I always waited until the oil was warm before pushing the car too. I can't believe that oil starvation was the problem. The noise started on initial crank and did not develop over time.

There is the possibility that there was an oil blockage in the block, that oil was getting to the head but not the bottom end. I have put over $3500 into that short block too. UNBELEVABLE!!!!!!!!!! I want to kill someone.

Looks like we may go with a used short block and put some new pistons in it. Fudge, fudge, fudge! Cross you fingers that the head is OK.

(edited once I am calm)

[russc]

Oh my...Um when you say scoring, like burnt or more like gouging? I guess Todd would have to chime in?

Could it have to do with the oil squirters in the block? But if theres no oil to the turbo, then maybe something at the oil filter housing?

That is bad, Im very sorry.

RussC

[Duke]

Oh my...Um when you say scoring, like burnt or more like gouging? I guess Todd would have to chime in?
RussC

Been thinking about it.

The scoring was present after the head gasket failed. I don't think there is a oil supply problem. The turbo line needs to be checked carefully for obstructions. There is no way that engine would have held together that way I was driving it with oil starvation. I was getting good oil pressure (up to 60 psi) when running.

Maybe the special "racing" rings that the German used caused some of this damage too. I believe they were chrome-molly rings but can't be sure from the German words he used on the invoice.,

All of the damage that is there is from the head gasket failure and crap from the cutting ring getting into the cylinders. The cylinders were also flooded with lots of water during the failure. This would also cause scoring. When the engine is checked I bet it will found that the connecting rods, bearings and crank are fine. We will be looking at finding the oil line obstruction to the turbo, honing and installing new pistons. Too easy and not as bad as it seems..............................I hope.

[rundatrack]

who ran all the fuel/oil lines?

[Rich Euro M5]

Oh my...Um when you say scoring, like burnt or more like gouging? I guess Todd would have to chime in?
RussC

Been thinking about it.

The scoring was present after the head gasket failed. I don't think there is a oil supply problem. The turbo line needs to be checked carefully for obstructions. There is no way that engine would have held together that way I was driving it with oil starvation. I was getting good oil pressure (up to 60 psi) when running.

Maybe the special "racing" rings that the German used caused some of this damage too. I believe they were chrome-molly rings but can't be sure from the German words he used on the invoice.,

All of the damage that is there is from the head gasket failure and crap from the cutting ring getting into the cylinders. The cylinders were also flooded with lots of water during the failure. This would also cause scoring. When the engine is checked I bet it will found that the connecting rods, bearings and crank are fine. We will be looking at finding the oil line obstruction to the turbo, honing and installing new pistons. Too easy and not as bad as it seems..............................I hope.

Duke,

So sorry to read about the problems with your engine. Based on what you've described, I agree the issue isn't oil starvation to the lower end. However oil starvation to the turbo might have been caused by a small piece of contaminate finding it's way to the turbo. The orifaces inside the turbo that feed the bushing are very small and it doesn't take much to screw things up. By any chnace did anyone use a silicon based gasket sealer at any time during the initial build or after the head gasket failure ? Silicon based sealers are BAD (advice from my turbo supplier for the Brick) for turbo based engines, mainly due to the possibility of a small piece of the stuff finding it's way into the turbo.

Hopefully a rehone with new pistons and rings will take care of your problems.

Good Luck,

Rich

[Mark 88/M5 Houston]

Sorry to read the report on your turbo monster. Please keep us posted on what it takes to get it going again. I do hope that a hone and rering will get you going on the bottom end and that the head is OK.

Back in my race mechanic days I cleaned out many a contaminated oil systems. Time and patience along with compressed air and a good parts washing system make it better, still a tedious job. I know that the engine builders (turbo Porsche) that we worked with at the time didn’t use any of the silicon bases sealers. They tended to use the non-hardening sealers from the aviation industry due to the similarity of the engines.

[Duke]

FLASH REPORT from Todd.

Apperently the #2 and 3 pistons are melted. Seems the engine may have gone lean under WOT. So much for all of the safety measures I took to include a closed loop wide band O2 system. More to come. I gave Todd permission to post the ugly pictures.

I hope the the ceramic coatings applied to the head saved it.

Time will tell.

[T_C_D]

OK. We dropped everything off at the engine shop. I hate to say it but tapparently it was driven WOT in a lean condition and the TEC3 took out timing and fried everything. The rings expanded, had nowhere to go but into the cylinder walls. Cylinder walls are out of round.

Roasted the turbo too.

Todd

[russc]

OK. We dropped everything off at the engine shop. I hate to say it but tapparently it was driven WOT in a lean condition and the TEC3 took out timing and fried everything. The rings expanded, had nowhere to go but into the cylinder walls. Cylinder walls are out of round.

Roasted the turbo too.

Todd

So, the lean condition with no timing caused ultra high exhaust gas temps. Those high gas temps burnt up the turbo?

Also, since Duke seems to believe that the system didn't run lean, do we have a theory on the failure mode?

RussC

[T_C_D]

So, the lean condition with no timing caused ultra high exhaust gas temps. Those high gas temps burnt up the turbo?

Also, since Duke seems to believe that the system didn't run lean, do we have a theory on the failure mode?

RussC

The excessive EGTs cooked the bearing in the turbo as it did everything else.

Todd

[Boru]

It is possible that it didn't run lean but the TEC3 pulled enough timing to raise exhaust temps high enough to cook it. Todd mentioned that the ceramic coating on the exhaust manifold is burnt and flaking off.
I mentioned this a long time ago... a knock sensor system needs to be tuned to the engine, meaning, it needs to "hear" the background noise of the engine and ignore it but recognise the sound of detonation for that particular engine. These engines are mechanically noisy. My guess is that the TEC3 picked up the mechanical noise and kept pulling timing out.

[rundatrack]

so it was the Tec3 install that was off...who installed the Tec3?

[russc]

so it was the Tec3 install that was off...who installed the Tec3?

It sounds like the TEC3 did its job just fine, but more needed to be done like monitor EGTs as well. One saftey system in a vacum wont do everthing that needs to be done.

RussC

[Steve Haygood]

ouch....

[russc]

My guess is that the TEC3 picked up the mechanical noise and kept pulling timing out.

Yea, my J&S unit has a switch so you can pull up to 10deg max or 20deg max. Dinan set mine at 10deg. So I left it that way, I guess that was a good idea.

RussC

[Duke]

Not sure it was the TEC3, the knock sensor was off due to the engine noise. I ran the car many times with the computer connected so I could watch the A/F ratio. I also data logged many times to check the A/F ratio and other parameters. I never saw it go lean WOT, ever. I would not have run it WOT then. Needless to say, the timing and fuel tables will need to be checked. Because it was 2 of the 6 cylinder affected, I think that injector failure needs to be looked at. If two of the injectors failed at WOT to deliver the required fuel, then its roast time and I would not necessarily see it from the WB O2 read out.

I'll see if Todd can have all of the injectors checked, now that they engine will need just about ANOTHER rebuild. Damn, Claudia is going to be pissed!

[Duke]

so it was the Tec3 install that was off...who installed the Tec3?

Hey Fuck-Stick, you having fun with your little jabs that I am the cause to all of this?

I am sure I contributed to these problems but I am not the root cause. Why don't you go play on the freeway.

[FirstFives Dictator]

FLASH REPORT from Todd.

Apperently the #2 and 3 pistons are melted. Seems the engine may have gone lean under WOT. So much for all of the safety measures I took to include a closed loop wide band O2 system. More to come. I gave Todd permission to post the ugly pictures.

I hope the the ceramic coatings applied to the head saved it.

Time will tell.

Duke, sorry to hear about the bottom end.
At least the car is in good hands.

[Tjn182]

so it was the Tec3 install that was off...who installed the Tec3?

Hey Fuck-Stick

I Duke

Duke, hopefully things work out for the best in the end. I know you've put a shit ton of money into this thing... only to see it fall apart. It will run... one day. Hopefully with only a few more bucks spent.

[rundatrack]

so it was the Tec3 install that was off...who installed the Tec3?

Hey Fuck-Stick, you having fun with your little jabs that I am the cause to all of this?

I am sure I contributed to these problems but I am not the root cause. Why don't you go play on the freeway.

Dont be mad at me...



Fakk-Stick...that was pretty damn good I must say...

[Duke]

Update -

Engine is out and at TCD machine shop. The cylinder bores are badly scored and it will need a rebore and new pistons. Still a mystery about the over heating, what data logs I have do not indicate it. Todd send me pictures of the damaged pistons. To be honest, this is what they looked like when the HG failed and I put stock gasket on it to get it running and on the boat back to the states. The scoring was there as well as damage to the tops of the pistons from the cutting ring pieces falling into the cylinders. There was not any burnt edges though. We suspect the engine noise was from pistons that were too loose in the bores. When I got the engine back from the guy who assembled it, I could move the pistons while at TDC in the bores. I thought that was odd but figured this was a highly recommended BMW race engine builder and he knew his shit...........I was wrong. He was a POS guy who screwed me.


This is when I assembled the engine with the cutting ring HG. You can see there is gaps between the piston and bore.

Pictures from Todd -








All I can say is that the pistons are not melted, burnt on some edges but not melted. You can also see what is left of the ceramic coating that was obviously applied wrong. That would be the fault of an engine builder that was recommended by a fellow board member. Screwed yet again be a highly recommended “professional”..

I get the award for the most rebuild engine in two years!!!

[russc]

Wow, thats really ashame.

I guess I don't understand how the ceramic coating stays bonded to the metal piston surface in the first place? Especially under 1400deg fuel combustion. It doesn't seem robust to me, but I don't know the process of how the ceramic goes on and stays on, either.

Again, very sorry on the engine...

RussC

[rundatrack]

Any updates?

[Yellow2]

I get the award for the most rebuild engine in two years!!!

Ive taken apart my engine 3x so far to replace and install various new components. Good luck with the install of the new engine stuff. Im hoping I dont have to take apart my engine anymore to fix anything, but we will see.

[Duke]

Any updates?

The engine builder is working on the engine this week and it should be ready for pick-up on Friday. I will be driving to TCD (rental) on the 16th to pick up the car. I will be staying over night and leaving on the 17th.

LETS DO THIS………………a TCD OEFFEN HAUSE on the 16th! What do you say Todd?...............BBQ and Beer?

[rundatrack]

Congrats hope ya get the numbers and fun that you desire..

[Ted in T.O.]

I'd make the trek down Duke just to see your car for the first time.Hope this happens Todd.