Competition for TCD.................another M30 turbo kit.

[Duke]

Open the TCD hood and voila a BMARO, or is it a BMUSTANG : )

Not my hood my friend. My engine compartment puts Dinan and many others, not excluding Miller tuned cars to shame.

You are way out of line to make blanket statements like that.

[Shawn D.]

Well good to finally see the turbo debate front and center where it should be.

Earth to senna4ever -- the debate has been going on here for years!

You commission them similar to a construction reno to build a dream.

WTF does that incoherent stream of effluent mean?

[Boru]

Well good to finally see the turbo debate front and center where it should be. Bottom line is power for cost makes the M30 a very attractive alternative for true speed freaks.

The Miller guys are totally different. Miller doesn’t do bolt on kits. They engineer turbo systems. You commission them similar to a construction reno to build a dream. They’re in the Alpina, Dinan league. They construct in-house custom spec super cars that can be driven daily. And look closely at their stuff, the quality stands alone and looks right at home in a BMW engine bay. Sure TCD;s kits can be fast, but they look just like that, kits. Open the TCD hood and voila a BMARO, or is it a BMUSTANG : )

Ah, blinded by the bling... Please explain, in detail, why the Miller "engineered turbo system" is superior to the TCD cobbled together bits 'n pieces. You see, I always figured a turbo system would have, oh, a turbo manifold designed for it and not a salvage yard relic... maybe a properly sized and flow tested intercooler with a well thought out water circuit (a 50-50 shot at that one)... try again. Hey! Maybe fully tunable engine management system instead of band-aid piggy backs and extra injectors... that's so 20 years ago...

[M635CSi]

Miller doesn’t do bolt on kits. They engineer turbo systems.

Using the terms loosely...

They’re in the Alpina, Dinan league.

No, they are not. And BTW, Dinan does bolt on kits...

They construct in-house custom spec super cars that can be driven daily.

No, they do not. They hotrod, in an old school way, old production cars built by other companies.

And look closely at their stuff, the quality stands alone and looks right at home in a BMW engine bay.

Your post does Miller Performance a disservice by attempting to make them something they are not.

Sure TCD;s kits can be fast, but they look just like that, kits. Open the TCD hood and voila a BMARO, or is it a BMUSTANG : )

Not to mean any disrespect, but you pulled that comment right out of your ass. TCD has the better value proposition and deciding between roughly equivalent parts for a 20 year old low dollar car, price is the deciding factor. In addition, Miller Performance has credibility problems; their performance claims are unsubstantiated and their marketing correspondence a horrifying display of illiteracy.

[GregATL]

M6, you have a unique way of undermining other peoples posts. Sometimes it bothers me but once in a while you tear up someones BS in a most satisfying way

[wjones]

Well good to finally see the turbo debate front and center where it should be. Bottom line is power for cost makes the M30 a very attractive alternative for true speed freaks.

The Miller guys are totally different. Miller doesn’t do bolt on kits. They engineer turbo systems. You commission them similar to a construction reno to build a dream. They’re in the Alpina, Dinan league. They construct in-house custom spec super cars that can be driven daily. And look closely at their stuff, the quality stands alone and looks right at home in a BMW engine bay. Sure TCD;s kits can be fast, but they look just like that, kits. Open the TCD hood and voila a BMARO, or is it a BMUSTANG : )

Your an internet troll, right?

TCD doesn't need my defense of their product. That Miller kit is just lame. Great fab work combined with an antiquated tuning concept.

[senna4ever]

Lol, Relax guys, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
.
And Duke my apologies your engine IS one of the nicer ones I've seen.

And to all that want to make blanket statements as you put it about Miller should do a little research before they shoot they’re mouth off when they have no idea what they're talking about. These guys are all here for our benefit. But obviously I won’t win this debate here. Sorry to disappoint boys, Miller is in the same league as Alpina and Dinan. They’re the real deal.

[BKCowGod3]

senna - your comparision of Dinan and TCD is possibly more perfect than you meant. Steve and his friends make incredibly expensive products that have pretty logos and a very refined and classy appearance without getting your hands dirty.

TCD engineers a kit that is designed to give you the most bang for your buck, targeted to a more technically savvy audience.

The folks at Dinan and Miller can get away with pretty graphs and pseudo technospeek when they market to their target audience. But to most of the people who would choose the TCD kit, there is a need for solid data to back up any claims, and most of the marketing fluff put forth by Miller is ridiculed (as seen on this thread).

Oh, and just for the record - my e28 is being garage built into a perfect tuner car for my needs. My previous tuner car experience involves a five digit check made out to Steve Dinan. Both vehicles are incredible, but they are completely different.

[Tjn182]

Dude,
You have Miller cars, have you seen a TCD car in person? Or rode in one? Nope. You have nothing to compare it to... and we haven't seen a Miller car's results to compare TCD to. Yet we've seen dynos, we've seen the before's and afters -- we know he isn't full of shit.

Miller takes old 745i systems and improves -- using 20 year old technology that is outragously overpriced.

And none of us have seen his dyno results to any of his products, except the AFM replacement which yielded miniscule results for the price.

Take for instance his turbo upgrade.... he says it "reduces spool time" (from memory) does he have proof or is he just saying it from data such as turbine size... A/R ect? Does it improve airflow and power? Prove it.


The only thing I plan on buying from miller is the 745i wastegate upgrade.... which is still way overpriced.

[senna4ever]

[quote="BKCowGod3"]senna - your comparision of Dinan and TCD is possibly more perfect than you meant. Steve and his friends make incredibly expensive products that have pretty logos and a very refined and classy appearance without getting your hands dirty.

I would agree

TCD engineers a kit that is designed to give you the most bang for your buck, targeted to a more technically savvy audience.

I would agree as well. I almost bought one.

The folks at Dinan and Miller can get away with pretty graphs and pseudo technospeek when they market to their target audience. But to most of the people who would choose the TCD kit, there is a need for solid data to back up any claims, and most of the marketing fluff put forth by Miller is ridiculed (as seen on this thread).

I would disagree entirely. Say what you want about Dinan, have you driven a Miller car? I have. MIller has tons of solid data and test cars to back up their claims as well. I never disputed TCD not being fast. I never debated TCD not being best bang for your buck for an inexpensive bolt on kit. But I cant tune my own car. So I opted for a full car.

I took offence to Todd making unfounded statements about Miller Cars. People should be careful in how they might slander one. Fine, he can say what he wants. I happen to think some of his kits look lame, so I reciprocated with the bmaros and bmustangs. I never paid any disrespect to TCD quality or performance. You guys bash the Miller site yet it's geared to being informative to achiveing very complex specific solutions. Blows away the TCD site. Say what you will. I'm a satisfied Miller customer.
.

Oh, and just for the record - my e28 is being garage built into a perfect tuner car for my needs. My previous tuner car experience involves a five digit check made out to Steve Dinan. Both vehicles are incredible, but they are completely different.

Sounds sweet. I have an e28 as well that I'm sure will get done up soon, I look forward to the pics. For the record – my previous turbo tuning experience involved sending my F40 to Gianfranco Fantuzzi, the technical director to Jean Alesi and the 91 Ferrari Formula 1 team. An experience I'll never forget.

[Shawn D.]

Sorry to disappoint boys, Miller is in the same league as Alpina and Dinan. They’re the real deal.

Sorry to disappoint, boy, Miller is not in the same league as Alpina and Dinan. Please show us some proof of their legal status as a manufacturer (Alpina) or factory approval with warranty backup (Alpina and Dinan). I do suppose they're as real as any other deal that isn't vaporware.

You commission them similar to a construction reno to build a dream.

I'd still like to know what that babble meant!

[Duke]

I really don't see a point to all of this.

senna4ever is obviously very proud of his Miller modified car(s). Nothing we may say will change that. Why would we want too anyway? He spent his money and is happy with the results.

We all know Todd (TCD) from day one (remember when I whooped your 745i ass at the drag strip with my NA M535i , tire spin, whatever) and have followed the progress of his "tuning" kits for our cars. I was one of if not the first customer for the s2 kit.

I am happy that Dan Miller is doing FI work on the M30 platform. Not may people are these days. I welcome any new ideas on getting more out of my engine.

Bottom line is, this does not need to be a pecker check.

Oh, and DINAN sucks too.

[russc]

MS doesnt need to cost alot, or take much time to install really. I spent only a few hundred dollars on my MS setup(bought the kit), and Theres really only a few wires that need to be tapped in to.

Talking like around 10 wires if that(coolant temp,air intake temp,vr sensor, tps sensor if needed, Power+ground,ignition out,2 injector outs,O2, thats about it).

But I definitly see how for many people, an Assembled ready to go MS System is the better choice(spare time + research is needed otherwise).

Figuring the stuff out before starting takes more time than actually doing it.

I think MS was the best upgrade ive done to my car, having full control is just great.

Well, Ill still take the other side since you still have to install a 60-2 wheel on the crank and hook up the E34 bracket, wire in the sensor. This still is not a straight forward install that 95% of E28 owners will not be able to do.

RussC

[Wiseguy]

Russ,

I'm familiar with standalones. Got 2 TEC3s (Well, one's a TEC3R with BMW Plug and Play) on the shelf.

What I was suggesting and probably didn't make clear as I was more busy paying attention to a dirty harry movie on in the background is that if you are going to spend some cash on a turbo setup for one of these cars and spend the cash for a MAF swap, why the fuck deal with a stock ECU?

It's like me doing a project I keep thinking about. Buy an old Testarossa, send it down to Bob Norwood and have fun. Now, this solution is like doing the above and leaving the TRXs on the car.

No.

If I am spending a pile of money to do something I don't want to take shortcuts.

[Craig -535i- Seattle]

Does the Miller kit use a 745i exhaust manifold? Do they even have a complete kit out yet?

Their work quality looks to be top notch, but there seems to be a lot of turd-polishing happening over there in the form of (seemingly) unnecessary work like the extra injectors. I guess it remains to be seen how their system works.

I know nothing about the company but am pretty sure that until they actually produce a kit that anything said is pure speculation and guessing.

[russc]

Oh my, did this blow up...

My only comment would be the Dinan/Alpina to Miller/TCD comparison.

Sorry, but neither TCD or Miller are even in the ball park with Dinan/Alpina. Not close. Ill take Dinan as the example, since I know his business pretty well.

First, Dinan has forgotten more about BMWs than Dan or Todd will ever know. Now I know that sounds harsh, but get over it. SteveD has been working on BMWs for over 30yrs. He employs right now ~4 software and 5 mechanical engineers on the MS level or above doing everything associated with BMWs, old and new. On the ECU side that includes BMW code debug, reverse engineering, cpu emulation, hardware emulation, ram emulation, re-coding and testing for the propbably 5Mb or more of code in a modern BMW ECU.

Theres the mechanical side which involves 3D modeling, cad drawings, pre-fab, testing and then production fabrication of the parts he makes. Sorry Dan and Todd, you need ~20yrs and a $1million/yr business to get there. Not to mention he has BMW production status, which means BMW has given at least tenative blessing to build Dinan branded BMWs.

Dinan employs another 15 shop techs at 2 facilities that can fab and build all the parts they make. Are they way expensive, you bet. But to compare either of these guys to Dinan or Alpina is just not correct in any way or fashon. Can they develop a company like Dinan, absolutely, and maybe they will.

Dinan also is an engine supplier to a Rolex Grand AM race team. Mmm, I guess they know nothing about high perfromance.

Gee Duke, I guess well still but heads over whether Dinan "sucks" or not, but Ill still stick with my montra "until you can maintain 2 fab/repair facilities in the SF Bay Area, employ ~30 support staff, have BMW maunfacture status and supply race engines for a Rolex Grand Am race car, lay off it, aye" 8)

RussC

[M635CSi]

MS doesnt need to cost alot, or take much time to install really. I spent only a few hundred dollars on my MS setup(bought the kit), and Theres really only a few wires that need to be tapped in to.

Talking like around 10 wires if that(coolant temp,air intake temp,vr sensor, tps sensor if needed, Power+ground,ignition out,2 injector outs,O2, thats about it).

But I definitly see how for many people, an Assembled ready to go MS System is the better choice(spare time + research is needed otherwise).

Figuring the stuff out before starting takes more time than actually doing it.

I think MS was the best upgrade ive done to my car, having full control is just great.

Well, Ill still take the other side since you still have to install a 60-2 wheel on the crank and hook up the E34 bracket, wire in the sensor. This still is not a straight forward install that 95% of E28 owners will not be able to do.

RussC

I agree the installation is beyond the abilities of most car owners but only because they lack the motivation to learn how it works. With the information available from websites and this forum, anyone that can do routine maintenance should be able to install MegaSquirt and tune their engine. Plus, it’s a great opportunity to learn about fuel injection and ignition timing. IMO, a stand alone fuel/ignition system is the first engine related modification that should be made.

[Duke]

Gee Duke, I guess well still but heads over whether Dinan "sucks" or not, but Ill still stick with my montra "until you can maintain 2 fab/repair facilities in the SF Bay Area, employ ~30 support staff, have BMW maunfacture status and supply race engines for a Rolex Grand Am race car, lay off it, aye" 8)

So, remember this thread - http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=25858&highlight=

He still sucks. Bad customer service and an elitist attitude ='s SUCKs. Not to mention selling off the shelf BMW parts at a 300% markup and putting his name on the parts

Russ, you are a great guy. I am sorry that you have a Dinan modified car (most of the Dinan equipment you have removed though), otherwise you could see past you Dinan tinted glasses.

[russc]

Gee Duke, I guess well still but heads over whether Dinan "sucks" or not, but Ill still stick with my montra "until you can maintain 2 fab/repair facilities in the SF Bay Area, employ ~30 support staff, have BMW maunfacture status and supply race engines for a Rolex Grand Am race car, lay off it, aye" 8)

So, remember this thread - http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=25858&highlight=

He still sucks. Bad customer service and an elitist attitude ='s SUCKs. Not to mention selling off the shelf BMW parts at a 300% markup and putting his name on the parts

Russ, you are a great guy. I am sorry that you have a Dinan modified car (most of the Dinan equipment you have removed though), otherwise you could see past you Dinan tinted glasses.

Oh I know, and Im not going to re-hash the 30 other threads with you and I butting up on Dinans business model.

"Sorry for having a Dinan car", hardly. This system works flawlessly and makes great power. Actually, the only Dinan parts Ive removed are the exhaust and TTV fuel controller. 80% of the original system is still on the car.

There are complaints and issues with all the tuner companies, AA, VF, RMS, TCD, yes even TCD, if you read the BF.C. So its not unique to Dinan only, although I see why their the easy taget, because their the biggest.

Say what you will about the "overpriced' BMW parts, they were still cheaper than most of the aftermarket products they were in competition with, at the time, like Brembo, Baer, Willwood etc. Sure, it would have been nice to keep the cost down, but again, you tell me what should be charged for prices when you maintain a BMW tuner facility in CA making 50 state smog legal equiment. Dinan will charge what the market will bear. I would stick with the single product issues, as opposed to the blanket "Dinan sucks".

Thats it for this for month on Dinan bashing, you can have the last word until Jan.

RussC

[T_C_D]

parts Ive removed are the exhaust and TTV fuel controller. 80% of the original system is still on the car.

There are complaints and issues with all the tuner companies, AA, VF, RMS, TCD, yes even TCD, if you read the BF.C. So its not unique to Dinan only, although I see why their the easy taget, because their the biggest.

RussC

Two things.

1. Calling BS about any complaints and issues from my CUSTOMERS.

2. You removed the "Dinan" exhaust and installed a TCD exhaust.

Todd

[T_C_D]

First, Dinan has forgotten more about BMWs than Dan or Todd will ever know. Now I know that sounds harsh, but get over it.
RussC

I am certain that I know more than Dinan has forgotten. Don't get crazy on me Russ.

Todd

[Duke]

Haaaaaaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaa

[T_C_D]

Sure TCD;s kits can be fast, but they look just like that, kits. Open the TCD hood and voila a BMARO, or is it a BMUSTANG : )

You want quality and craftsmanship. How about a hand hammered aluminumcompressor housing extension formed over hand carved Maple. Four pieces welded together and then textured to look like a single cast piece!

[senna4ever]

[quote="Duke M535ti"]I really don't see a point to all of this.

senna4ever is obviously very proud of his Miller modified car(s). Nothing we may say will change that. Why would we want too anyway? He spent his money and is happy with the results.

Absolutely, as we all are.

We all know Todd (TCD) from day one (remember when I whooped your 745i ass at the drag strip with my NA M535i , tire spin, whatever) and have followed the progress of his "tuning" kits for our cars. I was one of if not the first customer for the s2 kit.

I am happy that Dan Miller is doing FI work on the M30 platform. Not may people are these days. I welcome any new ideas on getting more out of my engine.

Couldn't aggree more. Its not like these guys are in it for the money, thats for sure. The R&D costs are huge on both ends for sure.

Bottom line is, this does not need to be a pecker check.

True, I believe Miller is aimed more towards building cars form the ground up than selling kits. Kudos to both of them, Its a benefit to all to have as many quality choices out there.

Oh, and DINAN sucks too.
Lol, well I never said that, so let the debate begin!

[m.olennick]

Todd,

I sent you an email yesterday regarding the possibility of turbo'ing my E28, I look forward to some correspondence!

[senna4ever]

Sure TCD;s kits can be fast, but they look just like that, kits. Open the TCD hood and voila a BMARO, or is it a BMUSTANG : )

You want quality and craftsmanship. How about a hand hammered aluminumcompressor housing extension formed over hand carved Maple. Four pieces welded together and then textured to look like a single cast piece!

Very nice Todd. Equally impressive package:

http://www.millerperformancecars.com/im ... inebay.JPG

[Joe in FL]

Very nice Todd. Equally impressive package:

http://www.millerperformancecars.com/im ... inebay.JPG

You know what's impressive? Data is impressive. Yellow paint is not.

[russc]

First, Dinan has forgotten more about BMWs than Dan or Todd will ever know. Now I know that sounds harsh, but get over it.
RussC

I am certain that I know more than Dinan has forgotten. Don't get crazy on me Russ.

Todd

Um, ya I know, I knew that would get a rise out of you, but you know what Im getting at. Im crazy posting on the forum to start with

Dinan has more knowledge than most across the ENTIRE BMW product line since the early '80s. Not just M30 powered cars. Theve chipped 90% of them, and put turbos/SC on probably 80% of them at one time or another. Again, its not a knock, just that you need more time to get to a Dinan/Alpina tier.

Its not BS on complaining customers. Theres one on the BF.c on your product about a very minor issue with tuning on his E34. Now thats not a bad thing, just the way it is, and it WILL happen some more. Now I know I dont have the full story, so Im sure theres a rebutal, but this is the nature of the beast. Im sure at some point a customer will have a "Dinan" like complaint and vent it on the BF.c or some other outlet. Rightly or Wrongly is will happen. I know you have the upmost integrity, but at some point a cheap shit customer will wan't a warratny repair that you feel he won't get! Just give it time in this business.

RussC

[T_C_D]

Dinan has more knowledge than most across the ENTIRE BMW product line since the early '80s.
RussC

Yeah, so, I have parted out almost the ENTIRE BMW product line from the mid 70s.

[M635CSi]

Very nice Todd. Equally impressive package:

http://www.millerperformancecars.com/im ... inebay.JPG

You know what's impressive? Data is impressive. Yellow paint is not.

And that's the point. Everyone expects company representatives to make self serving statements but third party verification of claims is required if they are to be taken seriously.

TCD has posted time slips (third party verification) showing their car going low 12s (12.09) in the quarter mile with (presumably) stock internals. That is impressive. To put it into prospective and against a car with a superior engine, a Dinan turbo M6 (albeit with lower boost) was promoted as going down the 1/4 mile in 13.2 seconds.

What is available after looking at the Miller Performance website? Well, if we look deeper using publicly available tools, we can see at least what appears to be other people’s sentiments in as much as their willingness to link their site to one of the following – higher numbers are better…

www.Travelleap.com 8
www.popcornpalace.com 647
www.dinancars.com 1,202

www.Travelleap.com 8
www.alpina-automobiles.com 548
www.popcornpalace.com 647

www.Travelleap.com 8
www.turbochargingdynamics.com 525
www.popcornpalace.com 647

www.Travelleap.com 8
www.millerperformancecars.com 19
www.popcornpalace.com 647

Popularity isn't everything, but it is something...