Blasted some more...

[turbodan]

Ran a C5 Corvette Z06, 335i sedan, big turbo WRX and strung out stock turbo SRT-4 ACR. The SRT-4 and WRX were no problem. The 335 was closer through second and third, but I had him on the top end. The Z06 was pretty wild. We went from a slow roll, about 20, right where I like to be in 1st with the 3.25 diff. On the third honk, with the boost coming on in a very urgent manner, I pulled out right off the bat. I held him back there through second and most of third gear. When I got fourth gear, moving through 100, he had made up the difference and slowly started to take the lead. I thought that was pretty cool. I'll have to give him another shot with more boost when I get a clutch that can handle it. It was very close at 12 psi, I think it would be easy at 15. I guess I'll have to try to find out...

[bimmerboy]

dude your car is sweet, i want something like it but perhaps a e34 wagon. or maybe an e28 but with an m30.

[turbodan]

An e28 turbo with an M30 motor. Now thats an idea...


I would have gone that way, but I had an M20, and an M20 transmission, and I kinda like the M20 anyway. The word on the street is that you can boost the M20 more than the M30. I hear the big six likes to blow head gaskets at high boost levels, where the M20 does just fine. Even if not, either motor at 15 psi will just about blow your legs off. I'm doing 12 psi on a stock head gasket and stretch bolts, no problem. I don't think the M30 will do that, at least not for very long. We'll see how it likes 15 psi as soon as I get some cooler spark plugs in there. Probably this weekend. Small blocks for the win...

[Duke]

The word on the street is that you can boost the M20 more than the M30. I hear the big six likes to blow head gaskets at high boost levels, where the M20 does just fine.

OK big guy...............increase your boost to 18-22 psi and let us know how that works for you. Zane is pushing over 30 psi and 700 RWHP with his M30. I guess you missed that “word”

Its all block and head preparation, not head gaskets.

[turbodan]

In time, senor. Or maybe not. I think I'd probably be happy with a good, homemade 300 RWHP. I'm not boosting the hell out of it just so I can talk shit about it over the internet. Thats what you call a "pissing contest". No thanks.

In any case, I don't know if you're the go to guy as far as what you can do with the M30. If Mr. Coker wanted to give me that snippy, condescending shit, that I would gladly take it from him. Thats because he's pushing 700 RWHP, and you're pushing three (or four?) head gaskets.

[T_C_D]

I hear the big six likes to blow head gaskets at high boost levels, where the M20 does just fine.

It's the opposite actually.

[Duke]

If Mr. Coker wanted to give me that snippy, condescending shit, that I would gladly take it from him. Thats because he's pushing 700 RWHP

It’s not snippy or condescending, you are the one that started with the ill researched statement. "I hear the big six likes to blow head gaskets at high boost levels, where the M20 does just fine." You knew when you made that statement you would get some feedback. Don’t act so surprised and hurt.

[skip535i]

If Mr. Coker wanted to give me that snippy, condescending , that I would gladly take it from him. Thats because he's pushing 700 RWHP

It’s not snippy or condescending, you are the one that started with the ill researched statement. "I hear the big six likes to blow head gaskets at high boost levels, where the M20 does just fine." You knew when you made that statement you would get some feedback. Don’t act so surprised and hurt.

I'm impressed duke...very well put.

I feel stupid for expecting this to become an ego battle...good on ya for proving me wrong.

[turbodan]

If Mr. Coker wanted to give me that snippy, condescending shit, that I would gladly take it from him. Thats because he's pushing 700 RWHP, and you're pushing three (or four?) head gaskets.

It’s not snippy or condescending, you are the one that started with the ill researched statement. "I hear the big six likes to blow head gaskets at high boost levels, where the M20 does just fine." You knew when you made that statement you would get some feedback. Don’t act so surprised and hurt.

I'm hardly hurt about it. I said "The word is". Not "it is a matter of fact that". I don't turbocharge M30's for a living, I've just observed a series of failures under disappointing circumstances which leads me to believe that the big block is more susceptible to poor tuning under high boost. Also, as far as I know, you have never turbocharged an M20 motor. So your opinion of the small block is rather uninformed. I know what I'm getting away with. The only way I know its detonating is if I can hear it. I'm doing just fine by that method at 12 psi. If the WR9LS plugs I'm running are causing my 13+ psi detonation, I'll push it a little more this weekend. It seems like a pretty tough engine to me if I can tune it like I tune my kawasaki two stroke. If it blows, I'll be sure to post about it. So far, so good.

[Jeremy]

Todd and Sweeney both pushed 20 psi intercooled into stock m30s with stock headgaskets and head bolts for many many trouble-free miles. Todd even pushed 15psi non-intercooled through his, so wherever your "word" came from, it was very wrong.

Besides which, a 9:1 (m20) 2 valve motor will never support the same amount of boost that an 8:1 (m30) 2 valve motor will under similar conditions. I honestly don't think you'll be able to get more than 13-14psi of intercooled boost running on your setup without issues unless you go standalone. The 9:1 m30b35 in the e34 is limited to around the same amount of intercooled boost with stock engine management.

Jeremy

[turbodan]

9:1 is pretty high for a turbo. The super e was 8.5:1, which is a little better. Its the lowest you can get with correctly matched stock m20 pistons. A lot of guys use the b25 engine, with an 8.8:1 CR. I'll see what I can do with the stock engine management. I've heard a lot of "can't do's" before, not many of which were actually real problems.

[russc]

Ran a C5 Corvette Z06. Snip On the third honk, with the boost coming on in a very urgent manner, I pulled out right off the bat. I held him back there through second and most of third gear. When I got fourth gear, moving through 100, he had made up the difference and slowly started to take the lead. I thought that was pretty cool. I'll have to give him another shot with more boost when I get a clutch that can handle it. It was very close at 12 psi, I think it would be easy at 15. I guess I'll have to try to find out...

I guess my BS meter is going off. You pulled a Z06 to over 100mph, really! He must have started out in the completely wrong gear or wasn't trying till 50mph. The quoted spec on the C5 Z06 is 385bhp and a 0-60 of 3.8s. It's curb weight is 3100lbs. The rear tire size is 100mm wider and the Cd is probably 30% less than the E28 brick front end. All the dyno sheets Ive seen are 350whp and up, so the 385bhp is conservative. Yours put down 275whp, Mmmm

RussC

[chrism]

The example your using as your basis for that statement is a poor example to use for almost anything related to correctly turbocharging anything.

Just FYI I destroyed 2 sets of pistons over about 4000 miles before blowing a headgasget.

I hear the big six likes to blow head gaskets at high boost levels, where the M20 does just fine.

[skip535i]

dude you should either just give up...cuz we don't believe you, or you should take it to the track and give us some dyno #s.

WRX, C5, 335i etc... you're beating all these and more?

my guess is that the owners of these VERY nice cars aren't even racing you

[Tammer in Philly]

The rear tire size is 100mm wider and the Cd is probably 30% less than the E28 brick front end.

C5 Corvette hardtop, Cd=0.29

-tammer

[Kyle in NO]

I also call BS, as he posted a vid recently where a NA E36 M3 with a loud exhaust was pulling on him. He'd have no hope up against a Z06 vette. I have driven several of those, and let me assure you, even bone stock they are brutally fast.

[Martin in BellevueWA]

..So, at the wheels without altitude correction it made 230 HP and 265 TQ. Corrected for altitude with an SAE factor of 1.2, it came up with 276 HP and 320 TQ at the wheels..

Skip, what's not to believe? Just because c5 z06s dyno at 380hp at the wheels, you doubt? Is it because he rolls up to nice cars & thinks others are retarded enough to run up to triple digits on the streets? Is it because he tuned his homegrown turbo by drilling holes in the afm flapper door & not using a wideband o2 sensor? I know, it is because he claims more torque than TCD's kits at similar boost, right?
Better believe it Skip, he's got corrected dyno figures.

[SheerHippo]

The rear tire size is 100mm wider and the Cd is probably 30% less than the E28 brick front end.

C5 Corvette hardtop, Cd=0.29

-tammer

Actually, I think the C5 Corvette Z06 is actually at .31 CD, and closer to 320HP at the wheels, but I may be wrong. You should try racing a new C6 (base) with Z51 suspension package.

[skip535i]

..So, at the wheels without altitude correction it made 230 HP and 265 TQ. Corrected for altitude with an SAE factor of 1.2, it came up with 276 HP and 320 TQ at the wheels..

Skip, what's not to believe? Just because c5 z06s dyno at 380hp at the wheels, you doubt? Is it because he rolls up to nice cars & thinks others are retarded enough to run up to triple digits on the streets? Is it because he tuned his homegrown turbo by drilling holes in the afm flapper door & not using a wideband o2 sensor? I know, it is because he claims more torque than TCD's kits at similar boost, right?
Better believe it Skip, he's got corrected dyno figures.

I'm not really sure what you mean...?

I am ALL for a homegrown turbo kit...but this guy is asking for a lot of credit and praise as he posts about all of these SUPER FAST he's supposedly smoked. We have yet to see a qtr mile time, a 0-60 time, a circuit time, or anything else other than dyno results that others think are REALLY shady.

I'm just saying that either he's making it up, the other drivers aren't even racing him, or his car IS TRULY that good.

I HOPE his car is that good, cuz that would kick ass, I'm just saying I have my doubts, and he just looks dumb puting all these "kills" on his list.

[Martin in BellevueWA]

I mean to say that dan's claims are not reasonable.

[T_C_D]

TurboDan is racing n/a cars at elevation of 5500 feet so he has a huge advantage with his turbo car.

[Rich Euro M5]

TurboDan is racing n/a cars at elevation of 5500 feet so he has a huge advantage with his turbo car.

It's even worse for the NA cars because of density altitude. Density altitude can be loosely thought of as the apparent altitude (what the engine thinks it's operating at) vs true altitude referenced to Mean Sea Level "MSL". Density altitude is what aviators use to understand aircraft performance during nonstandard conditions. Standard altitude in the US is based on a standard of 29.92" HG and 68 F. air temp at 0% humidity. For aviation / performance calculations density altitude calculations are based a two measurable values, pressure altitude (1 BAR ~15 psi reference) and air temperature. Since I happen to have my handy E6B whizwheel I ran a quick exercise to see how non-standard temps impact DA when pressure is constant. If the airtemp increases from 15C (~60F) to 27 C (~80F) you'll see a DA of about 3000 ft. So in Houston which is about 50 ' MSL at 80F the engine thinks it's at ~ 3000 ft.

Extrapolate this DA increase to Denver and you quickly can see that a NA car's engine is seeing a DA of ~ 8500' not 5500 '. In aviation circles there's a rule of thumb that 75% power will be seen at about 7500 ' of altitude during standard conditions. So you can see that at Denver altitudes during a standard day you'll only make about 80% of the theoretical HP. If the outside air temp are above standard conditions the performance will suffer even further.

Depending on how well Dan's turbo car is running he might have HP values comparable to some pretty high HP NA cars.

Rich

[Azure]

The word on the street is that you can boost the M20 more than the M30. I hear the big six likes to blow head gaskets at high boost levels, where the M20 does just fine.

OK big guy...............increase your boost to 18-22 psi and let us know how that works for you. Zane is pushing over 30 psi and 700 RWHP with his M30. I guess you missed that “word”

Its all block and head preparation, not head gaskets.

I think you're forgetting that Zanes beast is o-ringed, too. That's some pretty special gasket work.

[Duke]

The word on the street is that you can boost the M20 more than the M30. I hear the big six likes to blow head gaskets at high boost levels, where the M20 does just fine.

OK big guy...............increase your boost to 18-22 psi and let us know how that works for you. Zane is pushing over 30 psi and 700 RWHP with his M30. I guess you missed that “word”

Its all block and head preparation, not head gaskets.

I think you're forgetting that Zanes beast is o-ringed, too. That's some pretty special gasket work.

Not forgetting anything. He has a solid copper gasket with O-ringed head and block. Like I said, its all head and block prep.

EDIT - Zane blew his head gasket on the way back to Florida (took 38 psi to do it). This FI stuff is way expensive.

[Tammer in Philly]

Actually, I think the C5 Corvette Z06 is actually at .31 CD, and closer to 320HP at the wheels, but I may be wrong. You should try racing a new C6 (base) with Z51 suspension package. :evil:

I'd believe that, probably from the wider tires vs. the standard Corvette and the small body changes to reduce lift.

The C5 Z06s are very very quick; the C6 base cars are also very fast and the new Z06s are pretty insane. I haven't ridden in the new Z06 yet ... I want to.

-tammer

[M635CSi]

There are some pretty quick Corvettes out there...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBk14E3si4k

[turbodan]

Wow. I don't know what to tell you guys. I didn't get a video of the C5 Z06. If you really think I'm full of shit, all I can do is refer you to my local group. See the following link:

http://racingsouthwest.com/forums/index ... t&p=696519

I ran "///Mr. Binz" in the NA e36 M3 with the old turbo, the GT2560R, at 11 psi. That video isn't quite current. The GT2871R and .86 AR turbine opened it up quite a bit. The runs from thursday are on the latest state of tune, with a 3.25 LS diffy. I'm not going to come on here and BS you guys. Give me a break. I would like to have videos of the Z06 and 335i, even of the SRT-4. But I don't. Oh well. I don't understand whats so unbelieveable about a turbocharged 2.7i being relatively fast. The cars I was sticking it to run 13.5-13.6 in the quarter mile up here. Thats not so incredible.

I only take the time to post all these "kills" because this forum gets rather stagnant at times. I like having new things to read when I browse these boards. Thats the point. Whatever you think of street racing, all I can say is that we do it as safely as we can. The fact that I've never been arrested or stopped for it, nor have I been involved in an accident while participating in such activities should give you some idea of how we do it.

As far as the "shady" dyno figures, I really dont understand the confusion. Martin would like you to believe I'm full of shit, and that I use incredible correction factors for all of my dynos. I posted the uncorrected figures as well as the SAE corrected figures. I might add that many others also use the SAE correction for turbocharged cars. Either way, I posted that I made an uncorrected 230 RWHP and 266 RWTQ *with the old GT2560R*. Instead of adjusting the figures for sea level, I'd rather adjust the boost pressure I used to achieve them. So 230 RWHP and 266 RWTQ at 7-8 psi. I'll get back to the dyno soon enough to see what I'm doing with the new turbo and more boost. Theres nothing shady about my old numbers though. What you think about the SAE correction is a different matter. Thats why I posted the uncorrected figures too. 230/266 uncorrected. Simple enough.

[russc]

Dam,
I keep forgetting this. My BS meter just went flat. That makes sense and you probably right.

Dan, you should post your elevation in sig, that way I wont forget.

RussC

TurboDan is racing n/a cars at elevation of 5500 feet so he has a huge advantage with his turbo car.

[ISO_524td]

Turbodan, what did you do with your GT2560R? Are you possibly interested in selling it?

I'll be starting my turbo 2.7L project shortly. I'm picking up the recipient 524td in Reno in about two weeks. The donor 528e has been sitting in my driveway for a while now ready to go. The cylinder head on the new 524td will get pulled first to determine if I want to O-ring it or my old 524td cylinder head for the copper headgasket I have. Once I get my 524tdi clone running again then I'll probably be bugging you with turbo 2.7L questions if you don't mind.

The one question I do have now is did you freshen up the bottom end of the engine for the project? I could be wrong, but I thought your engine had well over 100K on it before just switching out the cylinder head and turboing it. Thanks!

Chris H.

[turbodan]

The GT2560R is tenatively sold at this point. I still have it, so if that sale doesn't go through it'll be up for grabs again.

This one got a full rebuild for the turbo. Everything was replaced except for the block, crank, head, rods and pistons. New bearing shells, rod bushings, rings, rocker arms and shafts, etc. That was mostly because it had 235k, and it was going to come apart for the super eta to i cam and head work anyway.

The new main bearings replaced the old double classification shells, which had a full oil groove cut out of the load bearing lower shell. The triple classification shells have a full face lower shell, which hold up better under extreme loads or with thinner oil. Other than that, it was all the same stuff.