Hello,
Unfortunately, everyone looks to be out of the FelPro headgasket that I'm trying to get for my car. From this, I'm looking into getting a custom copper headgasket made from the http://www.headgaskets.com resource.
Would anyone else be interested in this? I'm still working on pricing, but it would be much better than the stock headgaskets as I would also integrate their stainless steel O-rings (no special machining necessary).
Thanks,
Chris H.
Copper headgasket development
I like the idea of a copper head gasket for the heat transfer characteristics and physical strength but the requirement to re-torque the head it isn't attractive if you're installing one on an M88/3 engine.
MLS is a good gasket design but the 80's BMW 6 cylinder engine wasn't designed to take advantage of its benefits.
MLS is a good gasket design but the 80's BMW 6 cylinder engine wasn't designed to take advantage of its benefits.
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///ARINUTS...
- Posts: 425
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
Combination of a manual boost controller with cranking down on the factory BOV. To go any higher, I will be removing the BOV and making the internal wastegate on the turbo the overboost protection. (I have an external wastegate on my car)On another note, What did you do to get around the 15 psi blow off?
M635CSi, why is this so? Thanks.MLS is a good gasket design but the 80's BMW 6 cylinder engine wasn't designed to take advantage of its benefits.
A valid suggestion, but unfortunately, I believe it won't work. I never actually tried it though......How similar is the M21 head gasket to the M20 head gasket?
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fission_chips
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
yes
I would certainly be interested in several copper headgaskets for the M21 engine.
I would also be interested in how you blew yours recently - and the condition of your cylinder head.
Thanks a ton for your efforts and enthusiasm - they are very appreciated.
Mike P.
I would also be interested in how you blew yours recently - and the condition of your cylinder head.
Thanks a ton for your efforts and enthusiasm - they are very appreciated.
Mike P.
The E28 engine(s) were designed years before there were MLS gaskets so BMW couldn't design the cylinder head with the MLS gasket in mind.ISO_524td wrote:M635CSi, why is this so? Thanks.MLS is a good gasket design but the 80's BMW 6 cylinder engine wasn't designed to take advantage of its benefits.
Cylinder heads designed for use with MLS gaskets are stiffer with reinforcements helping to keep the gasket mating surface flat.
Copper head gaskets benefit from a very smooth, flat surface as do MLS gaskets.
Well, the cylinder head is off. The good news is even though there are small cracks between the valves on cylinders 2,3 and 5, the cracks don't extend into the valve seats. The bad news is like I said before, I believe this headgasket had been leaking for quite a while, even before I did any upgrades to my car. Because of this, there is a series of grooves and pits between cylinders 4 and 5 on the cylinder head where the headgasket section went AWOL. I don't think a new headgasket would seal properly there now. In summary, the head is junk, which is a shame as I didn't have any cooling issues or anything of that nature with it.
So what to do? I guess I need to think this over for a while, but I probably will convert my existing TD over to 2.7L M20 power and do the gasser turbo project I had as a back-up plan from day1 when I purchased this car. CA smog laws suck and getting a diesel vehicle gives me the flexibility to get around that. I have a junk 528e with a good engine and 5sp tranny that is ready to go for this. I will utilize the M21 exhaust manifold, turbo, exhaust system, crankshaft, the new IC, and external wastegate for the build-up. I also might keep it an automatic as well with my HSTC.
However, all is not lost! I have another resource for an inexpensive 524td and will try again. This time, I will immediately pull the head and replace the headgasket and transfer over my Raceware headstuds. I also have oversized pistons and might just rebuild the whole darn engine. Since I didn't get any serious commitments on the copper headgasket development, I might just use the FelPro ones and coat the living bejeazors out of it with Copperkote.
Chris H.
1985 524tdi getting ready to pass gas!
So what to do? I guess I need to think this over for a while, but I probably will convert my existing TD over to 2.7L M20 power and do the gasser turbo project I had as a back-up plan from day1 when I purchased this car. CA smog laws suck and getting a diesel vehicle gives me the flexibility to get around that. I have a junk 528e with a good engine and 5sp tranny that is ready to go for this. I will utilize the M21 exhaust manifold, turbo, exhaust system, crankshaft, the new IC, and external wastegate for the build-up. I also might keep it an automatic as well with my HSTC.
However, all is not lost! I have another resource for an inexpensive 524td and will try again. This time, I will immediately pull the head and replace the headgasket and transfer over my Raceware headstuds. I also have oversized pistons and might just rebuild the whole darn engine. Since I didn't get any serious commitments on the copper headgasket development, I might just use the FelPro ones and coat the living bejeazors out of it with Copperkote.
Chris H.
1985 524tdi getting ready to pass gas!
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fission_chips
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
Good work!
Hi, Chris:
Thanks for doing your investigation into your cylinder head woes and posting the results so soon and so clearly. I've followed your progress very closely and am a little saddened at your assessments. . . (I have two of these vehicles.)
I wanted to reiterate my serious interest in the copper headgasket solution you are developing. I would like to install that as well as the headstud set you've recommended on my "test" vehicle which is slated for a 5-speed swap. It has 175K and I've kinda held off doing anything until I can install the new timing belt/tensioner kit I have. I will likely do this on my daily driver soon as well. (If I am your only interested pary, however, I would understand your not being 'inspired' to persue this. . . )
Please please continue your developments! I am terribly thankful for your efforts as well as your excellent articulation and willingness to share very valuble, ground-breaking research and development on the M21!!!
best,
Mike P.
Thanks for doing your investigation into your cylinder head woes and posting the results so soon and so clearly. I've followed your progress very closely and am a little saddened at your assessments. . . (I have two of these vehicles.)
I wanted to reiterate my serious interest in the copper headgasket solution you are developing. I would like to install that as well as the headstud set you've recommended on my "test" vehicle which is slated for a 5-speed swap. It has 175K and I've kinda held off doing anything until I can install the new timing belt/tensioner kit I have. I will likely do this on my daily driver soon as well. (If I am your only interested pary, however, I would understand your not being 'inspired' to persue this. . . )
Please please continue your developments! I am terribly thankful for your efforts as well as your excellent articulation and willingness to share very valuble, ground-breaking research and development on the M21!!!
best,
Mike P.
Fission-chips, if you want, we can pursue a joint venture on this copper headgasket development. I would probably want two or three and we could split the development costs. However, it won't be cheap and for 5-6 headgaskets, I can see the costs getting up to the $800-1000 range.
Also, do you happen to have a good headgasket that I could send to Headgasket.com to use as a template? My headgasket that came out of my car has the piece missing between cylinders #4-5 and it's corroded pretty badly where the coolant passages are.
I'm thinking about JB-welding one of these copper headgaskets to my existing cylinder head before its final installation back into the car. The copper headgasket would work better for this than a OEM style one.
Let me know,
Chris H.
cbhinkel2-at-cox.net
Also, do you happen to have a good headgasket that I could send to Headgasket.com to use as a template? My headgasket that came out of my car has the piece missing between cylinders #4-5 and it's corroded pretty badly where the coolant passages are.
I'm thinking about JB-welding one of these copper headgaskets to my existing cylinder head before its final installation back into the car. The copper headgasket would work better for this than a OEM style one.
Let me know,
Chris H.
cbhinkel2-at-cox.net
Update-after much research, this is my moving forward plan:
1st off, the Autozone will not offer 524td headgaskets anymore as they have been discontinued from the vendor. Also, I believe other places will soon follow suit. I was thinking of using one of these with JB-weld for my shade-tree repair. So much for our cost-effective headgasket source!
Secondly, since I didn't get any good financial commitment for developing a copper headgasket at Headgasket.com, I won't be pursuing that route either.
However, I have a local source who will cut me a copper headgasket and I will groove the head for stainless steel O-rings. This should allow me to use my slightly scuffed/damaged cylinder head after all. Woo-hoo! I'm getting the headgasket made at 0.064" thick to reduce the compression ratio down to 21.5:1. Timeline to get everything done and back together should be completed by Memorial day weekend.
Chris H.
524tdi clone going the elemental cuprous route.....
1st off, the Autozone will not offer 524td headgaskets anymore as they have been discontinued from the vendor. Also, I believe other places will soon follow suit. I was thinking of using one of these with JB-weld for my shade-tree repair. So much for our cost-effective headgasket source!
Secondly, since I didn't get any good financial commitment for developing a copper headgasket at Headgasket.com, I won't be pursuing that route either.
However, I have a local source who will cut me a copper headgasket and I will groove the head for stainless steel O-rings. This should allow me to use my slightly scuffed/damaged cylinder head after all. Woo-hoo! I'm getting the headgasket made at 0.064" thick to reduce the compression ratio down to 21.5:1. Timeline to get everything done and back together should be completed by Memorial day weekend.
Chris H.
524tdi clone going the elemental cuprous route.....
headgasket
Hi Chris,
Out of curiosity what was the JB Weld going to do?
I am trying to understand your next path. I get the thin copper headgasket for increased compression, but are you cutting recesses around each dome on the head and using stainless crush orings to seal the cylinder?
Out of curiosity what was the JB Weld going to do?
I am trying to understand your next path. I get the thin copper headgasket for increased compression, but are you cutting recesses around each dome on the head and using stainless crush orings to seal the cylinder?
The JB Weld was going to fill in the gouges and scratches in the cylinder head and bond the head gasket to the cylinder head so that at least won't leak on that side and the headgasket hopefully won't fail again between cylinders #4 and 5. I was also going to use a torque plate when I did this to simulate the head being installed onto the engine.
Chris H.
Yep! I need to find a machine shop that will cut a 0.027" deep by 0.039" wide groove around the outside of each cylinder chamber in the head including the pre-chamber so that the 0.041" SS wire will protruded 0.014" into the copper headgasket.but are you cutting recesses around each dome on the head and using stainless crush orings to seal the cylinder?
Chris H.
copper/stainless
Is the main reason for the stainless orings due to the condition of your head deck?
What is the thickness of the copper headgasket?
Thanks
What is the thickness of the copper headgasket?
Thanks
It's 0.064" thick and will reduce the CR to 21.5:1. They also can do the gaskets in several other thicknesses as well with one matching the stock two-hole gasket thickness.
The stainless steel Orings are strongly suggested by my supplier as copper doesn't compress and seal very well. I would have needed to do this regardless of my cylinder head condition. I'm just glad I can re-use it. I plan on coating both sides of the gasket with a thin coat of orange RTV or Copper Koat before installing to help seal the coolant passages as well.
I bought some diamond rotary cutters and might try to groove the head myself with my dremel router attachment. I need to do some pilot runs on some scrap aluminum to see if it's consistent.
Chris H.
The stainless steel Orings are strongly suggested by my supplier as copper doesn't compress and seal very well. I would have needed to do this regardless of my cylinder head condition. I'm just glad I can re-use it. I plan on coating both sides of the gasket with a thin coat of orange RTV or Copper Koat before installing to help seal the coolant passages as well.
I bought some diamond rotary cutters and might try to groove the head myself with my dremel router attachment. I need to do some pilot runs on some scrap aluminum to see if it's consistent.
Chris H.
Are you decreasing the CR so that you can increase boost?ISO_524td wrote:It's 0.064" thick and will reduce the CR to 21.5:1. They also can do the gaskets in several other thicknesses as well with one matching the stock two-hole gasket thickness.
This doesn't sound like a good idea.ISO_524td wrote:I bought some diamond rotary cutters and might try to groove the head myself with my dremel router attachment. I need to do some pilot runs on some scrap aluminum to see if it's consistent.
Chris H.
a few thoughts
1. leave the machining to a professional, a dremel is no match for a mill even if you have the time.
2.Do not use RTV on a head. If you have imperfections, mill it and/or deck the block and get a thicker gasket.
3. If more boost is the goal, you really need to have two flat surfaces to mate for a good seal no matter what kind of gasket you use. Unfortunately high boost = more heat which is an enemy of aluminum heads. I would not run it with out a pyrometer in front of your face.
just my .02
2.Do not use RTV on a head. If you have imperfections, mill it and/or deck the block and get a thicker gasket.
3. If more boost is the goal, you really need to have two flat surfaces to mate for a good seal no matter what kind of gasket you use. Unfortunately high boost = more heat which is an enemy of aluminum heads. I would not run it with out a pyrometer in front of your face.
just my .02
Okay, I guess I'll pony up the $$$ and do this right. The diamond burrs I got won't work anyhow. Also, I'll have the machine shop fix the grooves and cracks while they're at it.
Chris H.
Yes, I looked around and 21.5:1 seemed to be a good middle of the road point for an indirect injected diesel running about 20psi of boost.Are you decreasing the CR so that you can increase boost?
When using a copper headgasket with O-rings, it's recommended to put a thin coat of RTV on both sides of the headgasket around the coolant and oil passages to help seal the headgasket. Unfortunately since the M21 uses steel inserts in the aluminum cylinder head, it cannot be milled.Do not use RTV on a head. If you have imperfections, mill it and/or deck the block and get a thicker gasket.
Chris H.
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slave2school
- Posts: 371
- Joined: Aug 23, 2007 6:35 AM
- Location: NS, Canada
So, I've been to several local machine shops and they have told me that they can't O-ring the cylinder head because of the steel insert. Apparently, they can only groove the head in a circle and the steel diesel pre-chamber needs to have an extra side "half circle" to replicate the headgasket design.
Also, the gouging where the headgasket blew between cylinders #4 and 5 can't be fixed either. I'm essentially back to starting point for my 524tdi car being that the cylinder head is screwed.
Given I have nothing to loose, I will try again with my Dremel tool combined with the router attachment and circle guide accessories. The diamond cutters didn't work on aluminum very well, but I found the high speed steel ones work great. I've practiced on scrap T6061 aluminum pieces and found that if I take my time and use plenty of cutting lube, the resulting groove is very close to what I want.
Also, the gouging where the headgasket blew between cylinders #4 and 5 can't be fixed either. I'm essentially back to starting point for my 524tdi car being that the cylinder head is screwed.
Given I have nothing to loose, I will try again with my Dremel tool combined with the router attachment and circle guide accessories. The diamond cutters didn't work on aluminum very well, but I found the high speed steel ones work great. I've practiced on scrap T6061 aluminum pieces and found that if I take my time and use plenty of cutting lube, the resulting groove is very close to what I want.
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bashibazouk
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Sep 22, 2007 1:52 PM
- Location: Winterville (not Wienerville) NC
Head Trauma
Hi Chris,
I just discovered this forum. If you're at the point of trashing the head, you might check with cylinderheads.com . They really did a nice job on mine and knew the specs. Somehow they milled the thing; inserts an' all.
For the time being it's working. Thanks for your suggestion on the head studs. Raceware's finest is working great. I can't wait to drive it to the dealership on Monday and ask their service manager about his coolant test. Is that wrong? Does that necessarily make me a bad person?
Josh
I just discovered this forum. If you're at the point of trashing the head, you might check with cylinderheads.com . They really did a nice job on mine and knew the specs. Somehow they milled the thing; inserts an' all.
For the time being it's working. Thanks for your suggestion on the head studs. Raceware's finest is working great. I can't wait to drive it to the dealership on Monday and ask their service manager about his coolant test. Is that wrong? Does that necessarily make me a bad person?
Josh
No, it would actually make you a good person. Incompetence should always be challenged. Maybe they will give you your money back???
I might give cylinderheads.com a call if I don't like how my new cutters perform. The problem these days is finding an aftermarket stock headgasket source if this copper headgasket doesn't work......
I might give cylinderheads.com a call if I don't like how my new cutters perform. The problem these days is finding an aftermarket stock headgasket source if this copper headgasket doesn't work......