KILR5ER MS build...Finally

russc · Post by **russc** » Apr 07, 2008 11:41 PM

Well,
Got off my ass and got this going. Was loolink for a easy way to get this done. Decided to just dump a 179 ECU for the connector...

Cut the 55pin conn off and trimmed the leads. Threaded the base and bolted it on...

Since the the main relay needs a GND switch that came from the 179, I need to add the 12V realay in the pic.

Heres the base, relay and the MSnE box laidout as it goes in the car...and another...

Heres a couple shots of the DB37 being built..

I hope to have the ECU portion wrapped up tomorrow. Will give more pics later.
This MSnE has idle control for a Bosch vavle, boost control and tach out.

RussC

Russianblue · Post by **Russianblue** » Apr 08, 2008 7:57 AM

russ, are you going to use the Glen's Garage board for the ICV?

also, please continue to post pictures. I'm going to build a MS here soon to replace my existing MS setup. The build will be identical to my first, but with a greater focus on durability, reliability of solder joints, and flexibility (I absolutely HATE de-soldering). I'm not sure what it is that gives me the willies about these things, but i'm just worried whether the soldering/wiring will hold up over time. Of course, i always say stuff like that, and am typically removing/upgrading/re-working often enough that longevity becomes much less of an issue.

Here is a link to one of my favorite MS builds/builders. He uses Anderson PowerPole connectors, which look to be very nice while making things quite flexible. Great site all around.

http://wiki.diyefi.co.uk/

Post by **Jeremy** » Apr 08, 2008 8:51 AM

Good to see you back in the game, Russ! Don't count on MSnE for boost control, from what I've heard it doesn't work well if at all. You're much better off with some other controller for boost.

Jeremy

russc · Post by **russc** » Apr 08, 2008 10:55 AM

The ICV control was built into the proto area on a V3.0 pcb.

I already have a AVC-R in the car. Ill be using that for boost control for now. Will work on boost control from MS later.

RussC

Russianblue wrote:russ, are you going to use the Glen's Garage board for the ICV?

russc · Post by **russc** » Apr 09, 2008 12:43 AM

Finished the MS build...
Complete DB37

Starting to solder on the GND line to the M55pin..

Finished soldering all the line to the M55pin. The BLU is the boost control and gray cable is for TPS...

The completed unit. Installed a 3pin Molex for the TPS sensor..

I hope to have it in the car hooked up tomorrow..well see. Theres a fair amount of work there to get it in.

RussC

Post by **Jeremy** » Apr 09, 2008 9:20 PM

Are you planning to use the e34 engine harness or something else?

Jeremy

russc · Post by **russc** » Apr 10, 2008 1:49 PM

Yes, thats the whole idea. Im leaving the AFM in for now and using its temp sensor plus the stock coolant temp sensor. That way theres no mods. Just plug in the box, hook up the TPS and vacum line, and off you go.

RussC

Jeremy wrote:Are you planning to use the e34 engine harness or something else?

Jeremy

FirstFives Dictator · Post by **FirstFives Dictator** » Apr 13, 2008 11:36 AM

russc wrote:Yes, thats the whole idea. Im leaving the AFM in for now and using its temp sensor plus the stock coolant temp sensor. That way theres no mods. Just plug in the box, hook up the TPS and vacum line, and off you go.

RussC

Jeremy wrote:Are you planning to use the e34 engine harness or something else?

Jeremy

Call me if you need anything

russc · Post by **russc** » Apr 15, 2008 1:07 AM

Well, Ive really lost my mind. Since I have this notion to go back to Motronic(stupid), and not fire up EasyTherm, I put the GM sensor in the AFM? Drill, tap and put in the sensor. The sensor is 3/8 MPT.

Since I didn't have a waterproof conn, I just soldered the wire ends to the pins. Ran the wires through the existing hole in the housing...

Mostly finished and installled int the car. I really want to fire this up tomorrow. Needs ~2hrs worth of work to get there.

RussC

FirstFives Dictator · Post by **FirstFives Dictator** » Apr 15, 2008 6:18 AM

russc wrote:Well, Ive really lost my mind. Since I have this notion to go back to Motronic(stupid), and not fire up EasyTherm, I put the GM sensor in the AFM? Drill, tap and put in the sensor. The sensor is 3/8 MPT.
]

RussC

That will work. I installed a spare AFM connector in an intake tube.
Seems like a lot of work though; as the system will fire up.

russc · Post by **russc** » May 16, 2008 1:56 AM

Well, the install is mostly done. Ive got the car running pretty well. Did alot of testing this week. Last week I got the timing set...timing light oscope to get this done

I removed the S-AFC, J&S Knock controller and some other wiring in the glove box...and with laptop in the seat

Close up of the stuff...

One problem I ran into, the VB921(ignition driver) won't properly drive a J&S unit. The output voltage wont trigger its input. This took much time to find out and I needed the oscope to do it.

Ive spent ~3hrs road tuning. Gees this is expensive. With all the boost I went through 25 gallons of gas in 250miles for a whopping 10mpg

Alot of the boost tuning was done on uphill runs, that really sucks down the gas. I still have two area to tune, idle and accel enrichment. Ill be working on that. Im having, like most, issues with idle. A fixed idle seems to work poorly, especially with large temp flucuations.

I have question on the idle, can you get a Motronic quality idle from MSnSE? So far it seems fixed DC idle is not the answer. The idle hunts a bit, enough thats its unacceptable. I have not tried closed loop idle much yet. I need to read up on that much more in the next week.

RussC

FirstFives Dictator · Post by **FirstFives Dictator** » May 16, 2008 8:22 AM

I'm still not convinced your timing or triggering is correct.

Send me a datalog and download Megatunix and run the tooth logger. The missing tooth should be 3 times as tall as the others and there should only be one. It should be consistant as well. If you have 2 missing teeth twice as tall as the others, you'll need to reverse VR polarity.

Duke · Post by **Duke** » May 16, 2008 10:01 AM

Awwwwwwwwwwwwww man Russ. What a headache.

Giving me flashbacks

I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooo happy with my Holley four barrel carb and dual point distributer

George · Post by **George** » May 16, 2008 11:16 AM

russc wrote:Well, Ive really lost my mind. Since I have this notion to go back to Motronic(stupid), and not fire up EasyTherm, I put the GM sensor in the AFM? Drill, tap and put in the sensor. The sensor is 3/8 MPT.

Hey Russ, did you wire the IAT directly to the Megasquirt board?

russc · Post by **russc** » May 16, 2008 9:21 PM

Nope,
I unplugged the AFM IAT and ran the wires from the GM unit to the lugs on the AFM. Crimped on 2 female spade lugs and plugged it right in. It used the stock M30b35 harness.

RussC

thesixerkid wrote:
russc wrote:Well, Ive really lost my mind. Since I have this notion to go back to Motronic(stupid), and not fire up EasyTherm, I put the GM sensor in the AFM? Drill, tap and put in the sensor. The sensor is 3/8 MPT.
Hey Russ, did you wire the IAT directly to the Megasquirt board?

russc · Post by **russc** » May 16, 2008 9:24 PM

Ok,
Ill datalog it tomorrow(?). The datalogs in MLV aren't showing any nonsense that I can see. The timing logs look pretty clean. But I guess that might be misleading?

I will say the boost part of the MSnSE is great. Im running 8.5psi peak @11.7afr @ 17deg. I can probably get more boost of say 1.5psi and MAYBE 2deg more timing. I would say thats 300whp on 91octane. Thats been a good suprise.

RussC

FirstFives Dictator wrote:I'm still not convinced your timing or triggering is correct.

Send me a datalog and download Megatunix and run the tooth logger. The missing tooth should be 3 times as tall as the others and there should only be one. It should be consistant as well. If you have 2 missing teeth twice as tall as the others, you'll need to reverse VR polarity.

babisbabou · Post by **babisbabou** » May 17, 2008 3:07 AM

Let me tell you :

Great job mate

karlo · Post by **karlo** » May 17, 2008 9:19 PM

I have idle that is essentially the same as the Motronic. I'm using MS2/extra, though. Took me a while to sort out, but it's something I've dealt with over time.

Post by **Brad D.** » May 17, 2008 11:42 PM

karlo wrote:I have idle that is essentially the same as the Motronic. I'm using MS2/extra, though. Took me a while to sort out, but it's something I've dealt with over time.

Same here, using MS2E and a Glen's Garage idle board, the idle is actually quite good. It is even unfazed by having the AC cycle on or off, but it took a while to get it right.

FirstFives Dictator · Post by **FirstFives Dictator** » May 18, 2008 7:44 AM

karlo wrote:I have idle that is essentially the same as the Motronic. I'm using MS2/extra, though. Took me a while to sort out, but it's something I've dealt with over time.

I'm running latest MS2Extra 2.0.01 and EAE. The EAE isn't quite dialed in across the rpm range, so I get a tiny bit of oscillation at idle but the throttle response makes up for it.

russc · Post by **russc** » Jun 19, 2008 11:29 AM

Well,
tuning is an on-going concern. TurboDan mentioned a "honeymoon period", well I never got that!!!

Theres two, maybe 3 biggest issues with MSnSE.

First, overrun fuel cutoff to idle transition. This just dosen't work, period. The crossover point from fuel cutoff to idle fuel oscillates around the transition point on coast down. It bucks the car horribly in 1st and second, but does it in all gears. This is definately the most annoying, although idle is another. Since I drive the car in lots of traffic and city scapes, its present all the time.

Next is idle. The biggest issue here is control and mixture. MAT sensor heat soak can't be tuned out completely. Ive used the coolant temp mixture control funcion in advanced and converted to MAT control and that helped alot, but its not great, and not as good as a Motronic idle. This is pretty important as Ill have to pass a CA smog check in ~4 months. Im pretty sure I can get it to pass, but theres a chance it wont with the way idle works right now.

Last is 1st and 2nd gear tuning vs 4th and 5th. I can't seem to find a tune that works well for both. I use 1st and 2nd alot, so getting that right seems pretty important. The biggest issue is oscillation in low gear. MS seems to have points in the 1400-2700rpm range that oscillate between cells, or at least it seems that way. The logs show a oscillation of ~150rpm and looking at the VE table, you can see it oscillate between cells. At least that what I think its doing. You can definately see it in the logs and car does buck surge with the oscillation. I can't seem to tune around it. When I move a axis point, the surging just moves to a different point.

Peter, I know you'll chime in on some of this....

RussC

FirstFives Dictator · Post by **FirstFives Dictator** » Jun 19, 2008 11:55 AM

Did you ever verify the trigger angle with a timing light?

I can't recall if you did or not..

90e34535i · Post by **90e34535i** » Jun 19, 2008 12:17 PM

Well, the AFR difference between the Lower gears and the Higher gears means you don't have your Acceleration Enrichment tuned properly. Also, Ive never experienced any rpm oscillations as your mentioning, not sure what that is(maybe has something to do with your VR sensor signal? noise on the line? not sure)

Also what MAT "heat soaking" are you referring to? You using an Open element GM sensor? I dont have any issues controlling the mixture at idle. Have you tuned your Warmup settings? Is this after the engine is fully warm?

russc · Post by **russc** » Jun 19, 2008 4:38 PM

Yup,
I did it 3 times.

RussC

FirstFives Dictator wrote:Did you ever verify the trigger angle with a timing light?

I can't recall if you did or not..

FirstFives Dictator · Post by **FirstFives Dictator** » Jun 19, 2008 4:53 PM

Are you looking for help?

It should be tuneable - my e12 had great driveability. Close to Motronic 3.3 for the most part.

The MS2Extra is even nicer but it's not easy to tune EAE.

Do you feel like you have a decent VE table now?

I hadn't gotten any datalogs or MSQ from you since before 5erfest, so I wasn't sure if you had success or had given up.

Let me know if I can help.

Disclosure: I sold this MS1 box to Russ, so I do provide support via phone and email to him, if he needs it.

russc · Post by **russc** » Jun 19, 2008 4:55 PM

I dont believe this has anything to do with AE. This is during steady state running with the throttle steady. Acceleration is fine and has not problems.

90e34535i wrote:Well, the AFR difference between the Lower gears and the Higher gears means you don't have your Acceleration Enrichment tuned properly. ]

Well, that could be, but the unix program that does the trigger logging wont work on my laptop. Peter wanted me to do this, but I can't get it to run. And I don't have access to a different laptop. Im not sure that this is the issue, but could be. The system otherwise runs great, so Im not entirely sure this is an issue.

Also, Ive never experienced any rpm oscillations as your mentioning, not sure what that is(maybe has something to do with your VR sensor signal? noise on the line? not sure)

Heatsoak, when you run the car to temp, shut it off, come back 5 minutes later, start up and the IAT is 55deg. It changes the mixture on my car by a full 2 AFR points. I set the mixture to 14.0:1 at 35deg. So when the temps are cold, ~20deg, the idle runs ~12.5:1 and at 45deg it runs ~14.5:1 using the CLT control mixture function. This is all after warmup, as the warmup works fine. I don't run O2 correction at idle, as it so far causes the idle to surge badly.

Also what MAT "heat soaking" are you referring to? You using an Open element GM sensor? I dont have any issues controlling the mixture at idle. Have you tuned your Warmup settings? Is this after the engine is fully warm?

Am I the only one running MSI here now?

RussC[/quote]

FirstFives Dictator · Post by **FirstFives Dictator** » Jun 19, 2008 5:05 PM

I ran MS1 until after the Megameeting in April.

I don't think the VR is a problem. You're using a stock harness and it works much better in this polarity than in the other polarity. Acid test is you should be able to lock the timing down and rev the engine and the strobed mark should not move.

I'd have to see a datalog to see where you're at now. Is your charge pipe insulated?

Post by **Nebraska_e28** » Jun 19, 2008 5:10 PM

Russ, you're a bad moFo w/your determination in seeing this through!

George · Post by **George** » Jun 19, 2008 5:13 PM

russc wrote:
Am I the only one running MSI here now?

RussC

[/quote]

I'm running MS1. I've been sending datalogs back and forth to Peter trying to get the map smoothed out. Out of curiosity, what was your trigger angle?

M. Holtmeier · Post by **M. Holtmeier** » Jun 19, 2008 7:02 PM

I am also running MS1-extra. The heat soak issue I had was taken care of by the coolant corrected air density table. What I did was install a variable resistor in place of the iat sensor and "tune out" where the suspected heat soak began. 100% would be no change on this table. It took me a few days of testing and making slight adjustments in different ambient conditions, but finally got to the point where I could go across town, shut it off for ~30 min and fire it up without any lean surging. Is this the same problem you are referring to?

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KILR5ER MS build...Finally

KILR5ER MS build...Finally