KILR5ER MS build...Finally
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FirstFives Dictator
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Umm,
Now Im just spitting mad, and wasted hundreds of $ and countless hours tuning for nothing. Gee's, this just keeps getting better all the time.
Ill answer all the questions first,
Peter, we agreed that the timing angle was OK, I think??? I believe we were in agreement that the timing was OK and that the 1/2 tooth advance@4500rpm was OK. The IAT is before the turbo. My VE table keeps changing on a constant basis.
My timing angle is 67deg.
Well,
Since grsmonkey got me looking at MAT corrected air density again. My settings were crap and the functionality is not what I thought, as I was confused about its operation. I missed the part about turning off as rpm rises. Plust that setting was wrong, I had 1000rpm for start and 1500rpm for end. Looking back that shoud be 1000 to 3000rpm. Also, the changes don't take effect until the CPU is burned
I re-did the tuning last nigh in 90deg temps and its better.
My other issue is temps at which you tune in. If you tune the car in 16C temps, your mixture will off by more than 14% at 36C temps. That has become painfully clear. It seems I need to tune the car ~28C, then the IAT corrected will be right and the O2 correction will operate within reasonable limits at the lower temps.
Now I understand why BMW uses ~10 multi-dimensional maps in M1.3.
Is anyone using closed loop idle control w/MSI?
RussC
Now Im just spitting mad, and wasted hundreds of $ and countless hours tuning for nothing. Gee's, this just keeps getting better all the time.
Ill answer all the questions first,
Peter, we agreed that the timing angle was OK, I think??? I believe we were in agreement that the timing was OK and that the 1/2 tooth advance@4500rpm was OK. The IAT is before the turbo. My VE table keeps changing on a constant basis.
My timing angle is 67deg.
Well,
Since grsmonkey got me looking at MAT corrected air density again. My settings were crap and the functionality is not what I thought, as I was confused about its operation. I missed the part about turning off as rpm rises. Plust that setting was wrong, I had 1000rpm for start and 1500rpm for end. Looking back that shoud be 1000 to 3000rpm. Also, the changes don't take effect until the CPU is burned
I re-did the tuning last nigh in 90deg temps and its better.
My other issue is temps at which you tune in. If you tune the car in 16C temps, your mixture will off by more than 14% at 36C temps. That has become painfully clear. It seems I need to tune the car ~28C, then the IAT corrected will be right and the O2 correction will operate within reasonable limits at the lower temps.
Now I understand why BMW uses ~10 multi-dimensional maps in M1.3.
Is anyone using closed loop idle control w/MSI?
RussC
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FirstFives Dictator
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Russ
I can't be any more blunt about this; you cannot run the IAT sensor before the turbo. It will not work well. Ever.
The megasquirt needs that info for density calculations and it must measure the temp of the air that is entering the manifold
That would explain why your AFRs are not steady. You'll have to move it to get good results otherwise the MS fueling equation is not able to operate correctly.
Yes, I've set up closed loop idle on a couple of cars. It's not great but not bad. But everything else has to be correct.
I can't be any more blunt about this; you cannot run the IAT sensor before the turbo. It will not work well. Ever.
The megasquirt needs that info for density calculations and it must measure the temp of the air that is entering the manifold
That would explain why your AFRs are not steady. You'll have to move it to get good results otherwise the MS fueling equation is not able to operate correctly.
Yes, I've set up closed loop idle on a couple of cars. It's not great but not bad. But everything else has to be correct.
Peter is correct. There is no way that you will ever get your maps tuned properly with the IAT sensor preturbo. Unfortunately I can't help out with your closed loop idle as I am running MS2E.FirstFives Dictator wrote:Russ
I can't be any more blunt about this; you cannot run the IAT sensor before the turbo. It will not work well. Ever.
The megasquirt needs that info for density calculations and it must measure the temp of the air that is entering the manifold
That would explain why your AFRs are not steady. You'll have to move it to get good results otherwise the MS fueling equation is not able to operate correctly.
Yes, I've set up closed loop idle on a couple of cars. It's not great but not bad. But everything else has to be correct.
Did the stock Dinan set-up use another temp sensor (as opposed to the one located inside the AFM) located after the turbo? Regardless of the engine management, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to measure the air temp before its being compressed by the turboFirstFives Dictator wrote:Russ
I can't be any more blunt about this; you cannot run the IAT sensor before the turbo. It will not work well. Ever.
OK,
Im back, was away for the weekend.
Peter, Im not sure we talked about IAT placement. Im pretty sure we never said it "wouldn't work" were its at. I have no problem moving it. Not sure were to put it yet, but Ill do in when I get a chance. Probably not this week. Thats a bigger job than it seems on the surface.
So where is everyone putting the IAT sensor?
SixerKid,
The AFM operates differently than a speed density system. The AFM is adjusted with spring tighning and bypass screw to measure the entire airflow range. Once thats done, the flapper voltage + stock IAT sensor measure the air volume very well, as the Dinan system worked very well. The only problem with it is its proproitary, so I can't adjust it for more boost easily if at all.
RussC
Im back, was away for the weekend.
Peter, Im not sure we talked about IAT placement. Im pretty sure we never said it "wouldn't work" were its at. I have no problem moving it. Not sure were to put it yet, but Ill do in when I get a chance. Probably not this week. Thats a bigger job than it seems on the surface.
So where is everyone putting the IAT sensor?
SixerKid,
The AFM operates differently than a speed density system. The AFM is adjusted with spring tighning and bypass screw to measure the entire airflow range. Once thats done, the flapper voltage + stock IAT sensor measure the air volume very well, as the Dinan system worked very well. The only problem with it is its proproitary, so I can't adjust it for more boost easily if at all.
RussC
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FirstFives Dictator
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I'd put it in the charge pipe fairly close to the thottle.russc wrote: So where is everyone putting the IAT sensor?
The closer to the airstream at part throttle, the better it will handle underhood heatsoak. That may or may not be possible on your M30, but it's something to shoot for.
That would put it under the charge pipe, pointing upwards; I'm not sure if you will have room for that or not.
I've seen it mounted horizontally near the throttle with good results, so I wouldn't worry to much if you can't place it vertically.
I'd also replace the AFM with a straight pipe. I think I ran mine with it in early days without a problem; I'd take it off anyway just in case the springyness of the door may be creating a oscillation at part throttle.
Then a 20 minute drive should be enough to correct your VE table
Mine is in the IC piping about 10" ahead of the TB. I would like to note though that I do want to make a change to my system. I am pulling bypass air for the idle control valve before the IAT sensor and what seems to happen is that when starting the car hot, all of the airflow into the engine is through the idle air bypass thus preventing any air from flowing over the IAT sensor and it heat soaking given an unrepresentative temp. Once the car is driven and air is pulled through the throttle and past the IAT sensor, it clears up quickly. The solution, make sure you pull off your bypass air after the IAT sensor.
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FirstFives Dictator
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That makes sense; you want as much air as possible to flow past the IAT sensor (MAT).Big Bronze Rim wrote:Mine is in the IC piping about 10" ahead of the TB. I would like to note though that I do want to make a change to my system. I am pulling bypass air for the idle control valve before the IAT sensor and what seems to happen is that when starting the car hot, all of the airflow into the engine is through the idle air bypass thus preventing any air from flowing over the IAT sensor and it heat soaking given an unrepresentative temp. Once the car is driven and air is pulled through the throttle and past the IAT sensor, it clears up quickly. The solution, make sure you pull off your bypass air after the IAT sensor.
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FirstFives Dictator
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Next project for the MS install, a dedicated computer ie Carputer for the MS...
Using a VIA picoITX system, the whole computer measures 5x4x2. It runs off of 12V from the car so no inverters or power adaptors. It will run the MS stuff, navigation w/MS Streets&Trips and MP3 player. The monitor will mount on the dash and is 7" screen @ 1024x768 resolution. It incorporated a touch screen so editing is easily done on the fly with a stylus and gets the laptop out of the car(im so tired of that).
RussC
Using a VIA picoITX system, the whole computer measures 5x4x2. It runs off of 12V from the car so no inverters or power adaptors. It will run the MS stuff, navigation w/MS Streets&Trips and MP3 player. The monitor will mount on the dash and is 7" screen @ 1024x768 resolution. It incorporated a touch screen so editing is easily done on the fly with a stylus and gets the laptop out of the car(im so tired of that).
RussC
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Canuck YYC
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Rich Euro M5
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Google is your friend. Here's where to find the details on the CPU Russ is using.Canuck YYC wrote:Yup yup - me too. Care to share further details?
He's using a Xenarc monitor, the 702tsv looks like it might be an option.
Or you could replace your head unit with the MDT-X7000 for a really integrated look.
Rich
Rich,
Spot on. Althogh my monitor is an old cheapie from Ebay for $100. Its a little dim, but cheap was the key for now. Artigo is 1Gb memory with a 80Gb HD.
I looked at the in-dash stuff, but way to expensive for right now.(min of ~$600).
I quite havent figured out the mounting system for the monitor, but that will come in the next couple of weeks.
RussC
Spot on. Althogh my monitor is an old cheapie from Ebay for $100. Its a little dim, but cheap was the key for now. Artigo is 1Gb memory with a 80Gb HD.
I looked at the in-dash stuff, but way to expensive for right now.(min of ~$600).
I quite havent figured out the mounting system for the monitor, but that will come in the next couple of weeks.
RussC
Rich Euro M5 wrote:Google is your friend. Here's where to find the details on the CPU Russ is using.Canuck YYC wrote:Yup yup - me too. Care to share further details?
He's using a Xenarc monitor, the 702tsv looks like it might be an option.
Or you could replace your head unit with the MDT-X7000 for a really integrated look.
Rich
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Canuck YYC
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Sorry - what I should have said was I've just spent a couple of hours checking out the VIA website, but I'm curious about your own choices 
Just thinking that we're both dealing with the same space constraints and similar goals (at least on the surface). Always nice to gather info before pulling the trigger.
Just thinking that we're both dealing with the same space constraints and similar goals (at least on the surface). Always nice to gather info before pulling the trigger.
I have the montior installed. I thought there was going to be metal to mount with in the dash above the air vents. Nope, so I just screwed it on with screws. Will look into a more robust mounting system at a later date. Im not sweating it as the dash had so many cracks now...
Ill try to get some pics up tomorrow.
RussC
Ill try to get some pics up tomorrow.
RussC
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Russianblue
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- Location: Charlotte, NC
+50 on charge laptop, carry, hookup, boot, log in and tune process SUCKING. i could NOT agree with you more.
Russ, what OS and what are the prospects for the carputer booting in less than say, 20 seconds? that's always been my hangup with a carputer...slow bootup.
also, how does the keyboard input work?
i know with the right equipment you can get some kick ass functionality AND sound quality out of a carputer. if you've got a mobile broadband card, nowadays you can do in-car internet, which rocks if for nothing else other than getting good directions and or phone numbers.
Russ, what OS and what are the prospects for the carputer booting in less than say, 20 seconds? that's always been my hangup with a carputer...slow bootup.
also, how does the keyboard input work?
i know with the right equipment you can get some kick ass functionality AND sound quality out of a carputer. if you've got a mobile broadband card, nowadays you can do in-car internet, which rocks if for nothing else other than getting good directions and or phone numbers.
Well,
The carputer is installed. Not the greatest but it works and will get redone at some point.
First, had to make a modification to the box. I didn't want to use the USB to Serial interface, so I used the serial cable that came with VIA picoITX. I cut a hole in top to get it in. Also, the touchscreen will not wake up the computer no matter what settings I used in the BIOS, so a external switch was soldered on run outside the box with a Molex conn. for easy dis-connect...
Next, I used a bent piece of the old Zenarc mount to screw on to hold the serial cable in...
From there I trimmed alot of material off the monitor base so it would screw onto the dash. Cut a hole in the dash cover and ran the hookup cables underneath and into the glovebox...
Heres a wider shot of the entire setup..
And a close up of the carputer in with LM-1 in the glovebox. The LM-1 will go and get replaced with a LC-1 since I don't need the large unit with MS installed. That will cleanup the glovebox alot...
RussC
The carputer is installed. Not the greatest but it works and will get redone at some point.
First, had to make a modification to the box. I didn't want to use the USB to Serial interface, so I used the serial cable that came with VIA picoITX. I cut a hole in top to get it in. Also, the touchscreen will not wake up the computer no matter what settings I used in the BIOS, so a external switch was soldered on run outside the box with a Molex conn. for easy dis-connect...
Next, I used a bent piece of the old Zenarc mount to screw on to hold the serial cable in...
From there I trimmed alot of material off the monitor base so it would screw onto the dash. Cut a hole in the dash cover and ran the hookup cables underneath and into the glovebox...
Heres a wider shot of the entire setup..
And a close up of the carputer in with LM-1 in the glovebox. The LM-1 will go and get replaced with a LC-1 since I don't need the large unit with MS installed. That will cleanup the glovebox alot...
RussC
Last edited by russc on Jul 10, 2009 2:25 AM, edited 1 time in total.
Running XP. Works fine. If you need quick boot, dont "Shutdown" the computer, put it in "Hybernation". It will startup very fast from hybernate.
Its a touchscreen. As you can see in the monitor pic, that software comes with the Zenarc. I downloaded a free keyboard program so you can enter alphanumeric characters when needed. Very cool stuff.
RussC
Its a touchscreen. As you can see in the monitor pic, that software comes with the Zenarc. I downloaded a free keyboard program so you can enter alphanumeric characters when needed. Very cool stuff.
RussC
Russianblue wrote:+50 on charge laptop, carry, hookup, boot, log in and tune process SUCKING. i could NOT agree with you more.
Russ, what OS and what are the prospects for the carputer booting in less than say, 20 seconds? that's always been my hangup with a carputer...slow bootup.
also, how does the keyboard input work?
i know with the right equipment you can get some kick ass functionality AND sound quality out of a carputer. if you've got a mobile broadband card, nowadays you can do in-car internet, which rocks if for nothing else other than getting good directions and or phone numbers.
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Russianblue
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that's what i was wondering, whether you entered text via a screen keyboard. i thought XP had a native on-screen keyboard in accessiblity options, but just checked and it doesn't.
so once up and running and while you are sitting in the driver's seat, is the tuning experience all you'd hoped? not hampered at all by the size of the monitor?
whatever the case, that machine is TINY. i love it. i am familiar with micro atx and min-itx, but this is a whole different ballgame. never seen PICO before.
i wonder if Win 7 and some of the advanced tablet functionality will be a big advance. i've been using Win7 since february and have seen some stuff here and there. you ought to try it out for kicks, just dual boot it temporarily or something. another thing which'd probably be worth every penny is an SSD. i've got on my desktop now and those things are SCARY fast.
oh by the way, this was posted very recently at e30tech. a walk-thru with particulars of the Serial to USB adapter mod.
http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78493
keep me posted on your Car PC progress russ. i am highly interested in this. any re-con i can do for you i'd be more than happy to do.
so once up and running and while you are sitting in the driver's seat, is the tuning experience all you'd hoped? not hampered at all by the size of the monitor?
whatever the case, that machine is TINY. i love it. i am familiar with micro atx and min-itx, but this is a whole different ballgame. never seen PICO before.
i wonder if Win 7 and some of the advanced tablet functionality will be a big advance. i've been using Win7 since february and have seen some stuff here and there. you ought to try it out for kicks, just dual boot it temporarily or something. another thing which'd probably be worth every penny is an SSD. i've got on my desktop now and those things are SCARY fast.
oh by the way, this was posted very recently at e30tech. a walk-thru with particulars of the Serial to USB adapter mod.
http://www.e30tech.com/forum/showthread.php?t=78493
keep me posted on your Car PC progress russ. i am highly interested in this. any re-con i can do for you i'd be more than happy to do.