Anyone has experience with upgraded KKK k27 turbos?

[marc79euro645]

not trying to be a dick dan, but if your custom machining the compressor who plotted the map,and how applicable is it?
do you have any datalogs to show where you cross atmospheric,
I will be seriously looking to buy a better turbo this year, so I hope both you & todd will share some data
thanks
marc

[ecartoys]

You are machining a compressor wheel? That seems crazy considering the engineering behind wheels produced by Garrett and others!

Since your turbo is farm out to somebody else I can understand where you get the idea of machining compressor wheel. Your 60 trim wheel in raw form will not fit into the K27 housing without machining the back side of the wheel. The back side of the K27 wheel is flat and the back side of the 60 trim wheel is not flat. It has to be machined down and then balanced to fit into the K27 hardware.

The pics with the 2 wheels is stock Porsche 3LDZ vs our upgrade wheel. The stock shaft diameter is bigger and therefore the upgraded wheel has to be machined to enlarge the shaft hole. Also the back side of the wheel is not flat and thus more machining. Reducing weight is achieved by machining out the excess metal on the back side.


The compressor wheel itself (the fins and the size) does not change. The compressor map is plotted by Garrett - it is a T61 wheel and you can verify that. Here's a side profile pic so you can see, the stock 3LDZ wheel is flat on the surface while the upgrade wheel is tilting on the surface.

[George]

We do the same thing at work only its stock Borg Warner turbos we upgrade with billet compressor wheels. We don't change the blade profile. Some of the problems we have run into is that usually the hotside can't take too large of a compressor upgrade. Pressure within the manifold goes through the roof and EGTs skyrocket. Seeing how small the stock 745i manifold is, it would be interesting to see what kind of pressure it sees with the upgraded turbo vs the stock turbo.

However, the thing I've learned is that the compressor maps provided for the upgraded wheel are usually for shit. My experience is that the compressor housing that they were plotted for is far off enough from the compressor housing we use (or in this case the K27) that its not really all that useful.

As for the secrecy:


There are plenty of turbo shops/rebuilders who have the capability of fitting a larger wheel into the existing compressor housing.

I think its great that there is enough of a market to support putting in the R&D to make this happen, especially since there are two versions readily available.

I'm just not sure why go to the trouble when there are better options available

[Shadow]

Better options as in
better bolt-on turbos, or do you mean better manifold/combo?

[George]

Better options as in
better bolt-on turbos, or do you mean better manifold/combo?

Better manifold/turbo combos.

At one point I had a 745i, Cartech and TCD manifold all side by side. I should have snapped a picture. The 745i is by far the smallest.

[ecartoys]

As for the secrecy:

There are plenty of turbo shops/rebuilders who have the capability of fitting a larger wheel into the existing compressor housing.

I think its great that there is enough of a market to support putting in the R&D to make this happen, especially since there are two versions readily available.

Exactly. I call it protecting my investment. It took me 2 years of R&D and 3 revisions to come up with the current recipe for the M30/M106s. Anyone who wishes to copy and duplicate it will have to buy one and contribute to my R&D funds.

If not, the many able turbo shops/rebuilders will have to do their own trial and error to find out. Very simple and does not take a rocket scientist to figure out.

[T_C_D]

As for the secrecy:

There are plenty of turbo shops/rebuilders who have the capability of fitting a larger wheel into the existing compressor housing.

I think its great that there is enough of a market to support putting in the R&D to make this happen, especially since there are two versions readily available.

Exactly. I call it protecting my investment. It took me 2 years of R&D and 3 revisions to come up with the current recipe for the M30/M106s. Anyone who wishes to copy and duplicate it will have to buy one and contribute to my R&D funds.

If not, the many able turbo shops/rebuilders will have to do their own trial and error to find out. Very simple and does not take a rocket scientist to figure out.

I suppose you should have found a better shop to do the work because it only took me once. I could supply almost any wheel in the k27, 50, 57, 60, 61 etc but I only offer the 60 because I think it is the best for the application.

BTW, the 61mm wheel is nothing special nor magical. I saw no difference in spool up or performance when using them with my kits.

Sure they flow more but that cam only be taken advantage of with a more efficient engine and turbo kit which neither the m106 nor the factory turbo kit are!

[ecartoys]

I suppose you should have found a better shop to do the work because it only took me once. I could supply almost any wheel in the k27, 50, 57, 60, 61 etc but I only offer the 60 because I think it is the best for the application.

BTW, the 61mm wheel is nothing special nor magical. I saw no difference in spool up or performance when using them with my kits.

Sure they flow more but that cam only be taken advantage of with a more efficient engine and turbo kit which neither the m106 nor the factory turbo kit are!

After all that and you still think the T61 that I am showing here for the Porsche turbo is what I am using on the BMW K27? I posted the 3LDZ turbo with the T61 to show the amount of work that goes into it - It is not a simple 60 trim upgrade that your turbo shop slaps together.

The 60 trim was the first version we tried and it is very lacking in spool up. You said that it is the best for the application but you always complained about how slow it was and then offers nothing else that is a bolt on for people running factory M106 setup. I got past the 60 trim and made improvements to get better spool up and more flow in the low and mid range.

Yes it is true you can fit any wheel to the K27 but the trick is to make everything else work along with it to give you what you want and you are not going to get there simply by swapping out wheels.

[T_C_D]

[ I got past the 60 trim and made improvements to get better spool up and more flow in the low and mid range.
.

I urge you to prove it. Dyno sheet with boost logged with no other change than the compressor wheel.

The only reason I am pushing this thread is because to this point you only have sales jargon and no data.

[mooseheadm5]

Pistols at dawn!

[ecartoys]

The only reason I am pushing this thread is because to this point you only have sales jargon and no data.

Sales jargon??? I only posted here because my name was mentioned here. I did not start the post nor advertise my turbo.

When I get the chance to dyno my car again I will make sure I get one that can log boost and afr but I am doing it for myself and definitely not because of your urging.

I don't need to prove to you what my turbo does because I did it for my own cars and found it better than the 60 trim wheel. You can accept my dyno result and my boost report from 745i site or you can continue to complain about how bad your 60 trim K27 is and offer nothing else. I am happy with just helping those who wants to try something else find what they are looking for.

[T_C_D]

[You can accept my dyno result and my boost report from 745i site or you can continue to complain about how bad your 60 trim K27 is and offer nothing else.

What are you talking abt? I have never even used the 60 trim/k27 setup on my personal cars. I manufacture my own manifolds, remember?

We use a larger and lighter wheel that flows 60lb/min and effectively move the power curve 1200RPM earlier. There is also no turbo lag on a properly exhausted setup. Our housing is machined extensively inside and out to properly flow the larger wheel for fast spool.

This is like selling snake oil when you do not provide proper data.





How has the power curve shifted 1200rpm? Looks identical to 3700rpm and then looks like your improved turbo spools about 300rpm sooner than the stock turbo.

FYI, David, I have been sending customers your way for several years for chips. Even as recently as last fall a current customer of mine purchased a solder in chip from you on my urging.

I want to support your business but cannot stomach unsubstantiated claims that ultimately diminish the value of a product I sell.

Produce something better and I will support it!

[ecartoys]

What are you talking abt? I have never even used the 60 trim/k27 setup on my personal cars. I manufacture my own manifolds, remember?

We use a larger and lighter wheel that flows 60lb/min and effectively move the power curve 1200RPM earlier. There is also no turbo lag on a properly exhausted setup. Our housing is machined extensively inside and out to properly flow the larger wheel for fast spool.

This is like selling snake oil when you do not provide proper data.




How has the power curve shifted 1200rpm? Looks identical to 3700rpm and then looks like your improved turbo spools about 300rpm sooner than the stock turbo.

My point exactly. Never used the setup is what you said.

If what I am doing is selling snake oil then you would have sold way more snake oil than me. I am not going to argue with you to see who can piss farther as that is not constructive. Anyone who is on this board long enough can make their own conclusion. I only started the business to make products for my OWN cars that I actually test and drive everyday.

As for my dyno, here's a pic of the stock factory curve showing M106 enginge with stock K27 starting to peak HP at 4700RPM.


Not an apple to apple comparison because you are running more than twice the boost but here's YOUR dyno of 745i with 4.10 LSD running 13PSI showing peaking at 4750RPM. For recap my dyno above in red is 745i with 3.91 LSD running 6PSI.


I am done with your insecure ranting. I thanked you for your referral(s) even though none mentioned you and I will continue to send RHD people your way but this has to stop. If you have never done what you required of others please think before you make a big fuss.

Thanks.

[T_C_D]

David,

You are missing the point.

You said this in response to a comment about the TCD 60/k27

Just so we are clear on the upgrades, our turbo DOES NOT use a 60 trim wheel. We use a larger and lighter wheel that flows 60lb/min and effectively move the power curve 1200RPM earlier. There is also no turbo lag on a properly exhausted setup. Our housing is machined extensively inside and out to properly flow the larger wheel for fast spool.

You have no scientific data. You don't even have the most basic datalog of boost.

Now, if I just ignore your comments, people will call me and ask me if the turbos have no lag like the one David at ecartoys sells. I receive hundreds of telephone calls that start out "I read this on the internet".

I make no claims beyond what Garrett publishes for the 60 trim.

"Rebuilt k27 featuring Garrett 60 trim compressor wheel. The k27 is extensively modified to accept the 60 trim wheel. This combination will support 480rwhp. "

That is taken directly from my website.

http://www.turbochargingdynamics.com/pr ... _Turbo.php

[russc]

Well I knew this would happen......

RussC

[///ARINUTS...]

Bang for the buck and instant spool

[turbodan]

X

[///ARINUTS...]

X

?

[mooseheadm5]

X

O?

[turbodan]

(Hosted on photobucket, notice that you can see it)

[mooseheadm5]

I can see the pics.

[Jeremy]

I can see the pics.

Me too.

[turbodan]

sucks

[Shadow]

really? I see them.

[browntown]

Fight! No really, I don't understand half of this, but I'm hoping it will make more sense when I stuff a m30 in my e30, then start shopping for turbo.

So if I read any of this correctly, the k27 turbo is crap, but can be modified to make it a moderate performer. Forgive my ignorance, but what's the big desire to use the KKK turbo? Won't other turbos fit even the 745i manifold?

Seriously though, if my business was reporting turbo performance I would bite the bullet and dyno the car before and after the improvement on a good known dyno and post the before and after without loop-d-loops. Then again, turbos are not my business.

Back to your normal scheduled programming.

[Jeremy]

Won't other turbos fit even the 745i manifold?

Other KKK turbos? Sure. That's a pretty limited pool though, and all of them use old (early to mid-80s) technology. T3 flange is different, so is T4. No fully modern turbo bolts to the 745i manifold directly without modification.

Jeremy

[Scottinva]

I didn't know a lot about the KKK k-27 and realistically still don't. However, it seems odd how many super cars run these, including a Porsche Turbo RS 968 and one of the topgear lap record holders the Gumpert Apollo (which runs 2)

[Gunni]

Don´t be fooled by the naming convention

modern K27´s are quite new technology, well about as new there is. KKK now bought by Borg Warner for the name and technology.

[itsbrokeagain]

Don´t be fooled by the naming convention

modern K27´s are quite new technology, well about as new there is. KKK now bought by Borg Warner for the name and technology.

+1

we used to run a K34 (before that an old school K31 ) on a 911 3.0 twinplugged turbo engine...somewhere around 600 in change on low boost. It spooled up pretty decently, but the built gearbox (short gearing) kinda kept the engine up in the powerband, so the turbo was always ready to go.

It had some massive top end, but we swapped to the K34 (built by Borg Warner, not the old style KKK) and it spooled a whole lot faster than the smaller K31.

The reason we switched? The K31 had a habit of blowing up (eating oil seals and once blowing the compressor apart due to no BOV on a very early build engine), and it was just really expensive to keep having it rebuilt...

The K34, despite its enormous size, was a magnitude in size more reliable than its predecessor. The turbo didnt work as hard, intake temps came down quite a bit, and we never rebuilt it once in nearly 2 and a half years.

My former boss runs an oversize Turbonetics T70 series unit on a 3.8L engine....dont ask me why, I was never a fan of Turbonetics parts...but it never broke down once and hes been running on that turbo for nearly 7 years.

[p 4446 pp]

Hi from Bulgaria. I think that the k27 is an very good turbo i have one on my e28 m20b27 turbo project it was on my e30 but terrible things happen to it so now we are changing the engines i have a few clips with the e30 with the k27 this is without the stand alone (megasqurt)
http://vbox7.com/play:60a8e3d3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_psUr-SZ ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-EaAMYfL2U