My Twin Turbo M30 Project

[Kenny]

E34... sorry about that. Some folks have mentioned the project might be of interest here since there is so much M30 love, so I figured what the heck, might as well post some stuff.

First up-
Front mount intercooler setup - treadstone core 20x6x5"

Clutchnet dual friction clutch on E28 single mass...
Ok the intercooler is offically done. Well I need to fully weld it, but it's all tacked up and fits great.

The end tanks and entries done:




Mocked up with the bumper off:







Installed! (kinda, it's sitting a bit crooked becuase I need to make some little brackets to secure it still.



Installed with the fogs kinda just sitting in the buckets. I am going to trim the black covers that sit inboard of the fogs as well to give it a nice clean look.





Also my clutch came in. I got a Centerforce Dual Friction - has the nifty weights on the pressure plate and a disc that's organic on one side and had 8 pucks (kevlar or something) on the other. I've driven them in other vehicles and they seem a nice compromise between streetability and torque holding.

Pressure plate w/ funky weights:


Disc, normal side:


Disc, side with "pucks":


Should be interesting.

[Kenny]

Next up - head fabrication and turbo mods.

I altered the turbine housings for v-band entry. You know. Convenient and stuff.


Here's what the turbos look like:



Then i raped it:


weld it on:



collector:





I took me ruining one to work out a system to get the "3 leaf clover" shaped collector outlet to end up round. This is thinwall tube so there' can't really be any gaps/

[turbodan]

How much boost do you intend to run?

[Nebraska_e28]

Some folks have mentioned the project might be of interest here since there is so much M30 love, so I figured what the heck, might as well post some stuff.

.

Welcome aboard! I cant recall if I was one of those folks, but I'm subscribed for more.

[Kenny]

Hi Dan,
There no specific goal in terms of boost. The turbo's are pretty small, TD04HL-15G's. Without dual port wastegate actuators they're probably only hold 18psi or so to redline, maybe 20. They should max out around 450-480rwhp at 18-20psi.


Some p[arts - New oil filter housing w/ oil cooler ports, new oil cooler lines, new M5 shift surround, new ABS sensor (I killed one when i did the subframe).



I decided to modify the intake manifold rather than build a new one. Just too much work and I want this thing on the road for spring:buttrock

What I did was a bit of a compromise. I just couldn't bear to blast air straight across the runner inlets. This style of intake design is fine for NA, but it falls short for boosted apps IMO.

My solution was to enlarge the plenum, mainly trying to slow the air down as it enters in the intake manifold and help keep nice even pressure at all runner inlets. It has roughly double the plenum volume of stock.










Next up, front header. It is tiny. Not sure what else to say about it. lol
I ended up drilling the flange by hand. It'll get some trimming at some point, now that it's welded. And cleanup, it has glue residue and crap all over it from masking tape etc.











Here you can kinda see roughly where the rear turbo will live:




Not many pics of the VEMS install but here's one. Fits in the stock location.

[marc79euro645]

nice work!
Looking forward to seeing this come together.
marc

[Kenny]

Rear manifold:

Rear turbo manifold is basically done (except the welds to the flange).

It's not nearly as compact as the front, unfortunately. I just couldn't route the runners in a more direct path without having to "cheat" the bend radii heavily - to the point that it would have affected flow more than I was comfortable with.

This header is more in keeping with my personal "style" I suppose. Whatever, it'll work. If the back 3 runners breathe better up top I'll adjust the fuel trims.

The turbo sits low, but I was careful to keep the turbo oil drain about 2" above the level of the top of the oil pan, so gravity drain should be ok.

Kinda hard to get a pic in the car, but I tried. I'll take pics of it all assembled with the motor on a stand, then it'll be a bit clearer i think.

[clongo]

I'm really diggin this build. Im interested to see how you do the downpipes.

[skip535i]

Cool! Love to see a turbo M30 E34!

[stefan]

Really nice to see this project, I'm just in the research stage at the moment... wish I was ready to build!

[T_C_D]

Looks great Kenny. I look forward to the results.

[taiden]

Also my clutch came in. I got a Centerforce Dual Friction - has the nifty weights on the pressure plate and a disc that's organic on one side and had 8 pucks (kevlar or something) on the other. I've driven them in other vehicles and they seem a nice compromise between streetability and torque holding.

Disc, normal side:


Disc, side with "pucks":


Should be interesting.

That's an awkward clutch disk. Are these commonly used or a relatively new thing? The organic side will (in theory) limit the slip torque through the clutch assembly to be equal to that of a disc made with two identically organic surfaces. Unless both sides have been engineered to have an identical slip torque... Then why not just dual surface 8 puck or organic? Longevity? Either one will wear out at the same rate as the fastest wearing dual surface clutch of either material. Really interesting...

Curious setup... I'd like more information on it. I'm probably missing something, unless it's a marketing stunt.

[turbodan]

The idea is to increase the holding capacity of the clutch while reducing the tendency for the clutch to become grabby or chatter during engagement. I don't know how well it actually works. I went from a full face organic setup to segmented kevlar and I haven't had a problem since.

[taiden]

Yeah, but here's what I'm struggling with.

The slip torque in the clutch assy will be defined by the surface with the lowest slip torque. So with a dual material clutch, it's slip torque will be defined by the lowest grip surface. I'm assuming it's the organic surface in this case. So why is this dual surface disk any better than a full organic disk when they will both have the same slip torque?

[Kenny]

Clutchnet Dual Friction clutches have been around for over a decade. They're a pretty well proven unit for street use. This particular clutch is rated for 100% over the stock E34 M5 clutch, so somewhere around 500-550ftlb and are very streetable.

The pressure plate and flywheel are physically bolted together. For the disc to slip, both surfaces have to slip. Think of it this way: if you lubed up one side, say the flywheel side, of a clutch disc with axle grease and installed it, it would not simply slip like crazy. The pressure plate side would still be holding. Again, both sides have to slip. You would have cut the holding capacity in half or so, though. The torque capacity is based on the average of the coefficients of friction of either side of the disc.

Having a full face friction surface on one side helps eliminate chatter.

[stefan]

Years ago, when I was fooling around with a turbocharged Civic, I had a ACT six puck plate (sprung) with a heavy duty pressure plate... I drove it hard on a daily basis.
Yes, you will have chatter, but that occurs only in the time it takes for you to learn how to handle the different clutch; after a while, I never had any chatter.

Only thing different from stock was the really heavy clutch pedal, but at the time a small company had this cool new thing; a revalved main clutch cylinder, so the pedal would be lighter again while maintaining the same force at the slave cylinder.
You still had to put it in neutral though when you stopped (like in rush hour, or at the lights) to save the thrust bearings or else face the consequences of crank walk after a while hehe, golden rule was 'neutral is your friend' :p
In Holland we say 'alles went, behalve een vent'; you'll get used to anything, but a guy, LOL

Not trying to criticize your choice of clutch, just trying to contribute to the forum with what I learned in the past.
So personally, I would have chosen a true puck-style setup, as it's lighter and better at dissipating the massive heat of a few good runs at full boost.
I admit that it's probably harder on the surfaces of your flywheel and pressure plate than the combined style friction plate, but if wear is ones concern one shouldn't consider turbocharging at all :-)

[Kenny]

I'm not interested in something I have to "get used to", to be honest. I might be new to the forum but this isn't my first rodeo.
I'm familiar with the pros and cons of different discs.

The car will be daily driven in traffic by both myself and my wife. I have driven this clutch before in other applications and it's very smooth. My buddy has clutchnet's fiber/carbon setup which is very similar (9 pucks on one side and full face organic on the other) and it drives like stock.

With a 240mm clutch, around 500-550ftlb is about as much as you can do and have something with driveability very close to OEM, it's just physics. That's the line I am trying to walk and that is why I chose the clutch I did.


The downpipes were indeed a bit tricky.

Here's some pics.

There is a flex in that upper pipe then it attaches via v-band to a "y pipe" that also goes to the other turbo.

Merges into a single 3" under the car. I tried hard to make something that didn't require six arms to assemble. Snaking that top downpipe in is a little fiddly (and will be even worse with AC lines there), but I was more or less successful.

[T_C_D]

Pics of the 240 wagon please.

[Kenny]

Some pics of the volvo here:

http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/ll21 ... st%20Pics/

[T_C_D]

Some pics of the volvo here:

http://s289.photobucket.com/albums/ll21 ... st%20Pics/

Totally badass!

[taiden]

The pressure plate and flywheel are physically bolted together. For the disc to slip, both surfaces have to slip. Think of it this way: if you lubed up one side, say the flywheel side, of a clutch disc with axle grease and installed it, it would not simply slip like crazy. The pressure plate side would still be holding. Again, both sides have to slip. You would have cut the holding capacity in half or so, though. The torque capacity is based on the average of the coefficients of friction of either side of the disc.

Having a full face friction surface on one side helps eliminate chatter.

facepalm.

My obvious mistake. It's always something simple that you overlook. Yes, the flywheel and pressure plate being a single assembly would mean that the slip torque will be the sum of the slip torques for each surface.

Very cool!

[stefan]

Sorry if I gave the impression I don't think you're able, wrong choice of words or tone maybe
I'll even give this type of setup a try, like to try 'new' things.

How are you going to couple the two pipes from the compressor going to the intercooler together, weld a Y-pipe or some kind of silicone coupler?

And those 15b's, are they comparable in size to, let's say, a set of KKK k03's?
Because that's what I have got here, I was just planning on keeping the stock double exhaust and welding flanges on the stock manifolds (one top mount, one bottom), or if that doesn't work, put a set of log style manifolds together and get them welded... unfortunately I can haz no mad (or any for that matter) welding skillz
I'll leave plenty of room for improvement there

Funny how just a few days ago I wasn't able to find any info on twin turbo setups for the m30, and a day (or two) after I start my search for info, your project comes along!

[Kenny]

I think K03's are really small, but I'm not very familiar with them. If those are from like Volkswagen 1.8t's or TDI or something, they are probably too small to be worth using to be honest.


-Motor has been removed, cleaned and resealed

- Trans re-sealed, new bronze clutch pivot, slave, release bearing

-all oil feeds and returns built

-head rebuilt, installed steel KM Cams rockers.

Before:



After:



Head gasket on w/ ARP's installed:




Some pics of the oil plumbing and overall mock up:





Rust repair (welding a patch into t4he inner fender where that stupid clip for the brake pad sensor or whatever that always rusts through on E34's)




Difference between stock aluminum rocker and KM Cam's steel unit:

[BATESY]

awesome.

[Mr Project]

Looking great and the FMIC info is timely for me as well.

[Kenny]

Has anyone used a copper sprayed, or even un-treated elring headgasket with ARPs?

What's done is done so i will run it, but I've noticed some very low horse power numbers quoted in terms of what a non-mls (or non o-ringed stock) headgasket is good for.

I've had very good luck with copper sprayed elring HG's on other projects (my Volvo had stock elring w/ copper spray and stock head bolts) so I decided to stay with what I know.

I don't like the idea of o-ringing or using an MLS since it makes life more complicated if I pop this motor and want to bang another JY motor in (this is likely, lol). It would need to either be machined for the MLS or machined for o-rings.

I will be running a programmable EMS of course and the tune will be good. Obviously detonation will pop it even at low HPs.

But has anyone popped a fresh stock with ARP's when the timing and AFR were known good? (ie it was popped strictly from power?)

[turbodan]

Its always hard to say exactly what causes a HG failure. Of course the main factor is cylinder pressure, but that spikes severely when detonation occurs. Even slight detonation can pooch a gasket. You might not hear it but it will be just as destructive as the full blown can of bb's detonation under the hood.

The M30 seems to be much more susceptible to HG failure than the M20. I run stock gaskets up to 1.4 bar with head studs. I've never seen an M30 doing that. Some guys have problems at 8 psi, but I think that may be due to tuning issues. I do know that a Cometic MLS and studs will hold something like 20 psi. Surface prep including machining for the MLS gasket is not necessary in my experience. A little copper spray will do to prevent minor fluid leaks.

[Kenny]

Thanks for the insight- hopefully I haven't screwed myself on this. Worst case scenario and I pop it, I guess I will try a copper sprayed mls on the "stock" mating surfaces.

[marc79euro645]

I'm a pro at popping headgaskets, mls included.
My current build is an m5 stock headgasket , sprayed w copper,w arp studs on my m106. It has held up to all the thrashing I do up to 18#. It has leaked just a bit of oil on the intake side since day 1, but is holding otherwise. I installed a knocksense led light to the m106 knocksensors. Installed in the A pillar it blinds me at knock & I lift. That's probably the best $60 I've spent on this car.
good luck
marc

[CoyoteStarfish]

Volkswagen TDI motors had VNT turbos. The 98-2003 ALH TDI used something like a Garrett GT1756v(a,b) which VAG simply called a VNT15. Great little turbo, and the vane technology allows for quick spooling. They max out at about 140hp however, EGT and EGPs get too high. I would love to see this build with dual GT2056vb's. They're good for about 175-180 a piece and you would have boost from an idle.

But anyway. This build makes me drool.