E28 M5 Dyno runs.... modified engine. Added photos 1/11

[paul burke]

Overlap has very little to do with building low and mid range torque?

Ken

Lets start with this one. Why would you believe overlap significantly effects low and midrange torque? For discussion purposes lets say "low and midrange" equates to 1800-3800 rpm.

Paul

[Black Steel]

Thanks guys for the compliments.
I am very pleased and the car is a blast to drive.

Hopefully by the end of the day i will have the video on
YouTube.
I loaded it the other day but it seemed like it was not running correctly but this is the first time i have put anything on YouTube. My son told me you have to wait a few hours to view it. I just uploaded it (took and hour) so give it a chance and i will post the link.

Tucker asked about the driveline drag. They can't actually calculate it but use factors for different cars and dynos.
Like the E-28's have two piece drive shafts and half shaft axles.
All those joints add up.
The accepted number is 16-17%.
This has been discussed quite a bit on Bimmer Forums.

I knew Moosehead would like those numbers.

Well done

I have read so much about updating these engines but have always come back to the fact that a compression increase is the best way. This is what the euro boys are doing
I have seen these engines being run as high as 12:1!
Most are well over 400bhp know!!

If you look at how BMW get the power out of the later six cylinder engines you will see that the compression ratio has increased with each application.

Cam wise you can stick all types of cam profiles in but 9 times out of 10 you always loose to much at the bottom end.
What people don't realise either is that over a certain cam profile the head has to be machined just so that the cam can turn

Your next step should be a carbon airbox
I already no what type of numbers you will get with one fitted.

There is a reason why I picked the b36 for my car

[klrskies]

Overlap has very little to do with building low and mid range torque?

Ken

Lets start with this one. Why would you believe overlap significantly effects low and midrange torque? For discussion purposes lets say "low and midrange" equates to 1800-3800 rpm.

Paul

OK, compression can be increased to compensate for lowered dynamic compression ratio due to overlap increase from longer duration cams, occuring in the rpm range where the cam/tuned intake systems are not in phase. Here's an intrersting calculator for the complex DCR... http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

One might be better off discussing cylinder pressure prior to ignition so as to account for more of the varibles.

And again, What does the forum feel is possible if hi ethanol content E85 were used? Lets discuss my question first...then go off on a tangent course, or launch an appropriate thread on the topic. The results of this build are impressive, and it leaves me curious what's possible with with E-85 and perhaps E-100 fuel. I'm sure you have a good idea whats required and possible for an engine built to use these fuels Paul.

Ken

[paul burke]

Ken, study the calculator, the last entry is intake valve closing ABDC. Like I said in my earlier post the intake closing has much more influence relative to dynamic pressure than the opening (which is where overlap time occurs).

Have run comp. ratios over 15-1 on E85 but like I said static compression by itself is not the dictator.

Paul

[Philo]

Look, as far as I am concerned, _every_ S38B35 owner should do this.

If i understand correclty:
- high comp pistons
- stock euro headers
- "light" headwork ?
- stock B36 cams
- remove the AFM, go to customized/standalone EFI
- open up the exhaust a bit

You are making _90_ hp over stock numbers!

Agree.., but Gary's approach meant he had to tear down the engine and spend 8-10k to put it back together and add the mods.., the WAR Chip, headers, pistons, cams, etc... Most stock B35 owners wont rip into their engine for 90hp.. But will if it suffers from internal ailments like Gary's did.

I still think the best bang for the buck for a stocker is a custom burned chip. Anything more tends to turn into a slippery slop scenario. Taken from first hand experience of course.

I'm going down the same road as Gary but with a 86x95 platform. I hope I see better numbers...

[klrskies]

Ken, study the calculator, the last entry is intake valve closing ABDC. Like I said in my earlier post the intake closing has much more influence relative to dynamic pressure than the opening (which is where overlap time occurs).

Have run comp. ratios over 15-1 on E85 but like I said static compression by itself is not the dictator.

Paul

OK Paul, I'll study a bit.
Cylinder pressure seems like something it would be best to obtain sensor data of and plot rather than calculate / guess at...so many varibles....unless one has history with specific engine configurations that have been worked out.

A street engine, prepared for exclusive E-85 consumption, seems an intresting proposition, but as always, the devils in the details. If the engine didn't have the constraint of operating in a flexible fueled mode, and was optomized for E85, what output is possible? We're seeing mild builds on pump gas generating around 300 whp useing:
b36 cams.
mild porting.
euro spec. compression.
tuned length exhaust.
MAF conversion.
Tuneable fuel and timing.

would 10~20% more HP be possible on a similar engine prepared for exclusive consumption of E85?

Ken

[M5BB]

Phil makes good points.
Yes, I had a piston (stock) that was disintegrating at the track.
Not sure exactly why but seemed to point to a lean condition.
Let's not open that can of worms.

So I had to replace that piston or all of them.
One BMW piston was IIRC $400.
I had done compression and leak down tests before the piston broke so I knew I had a couple cylinders with higher leak down numbers and the cyl head needed work too.
I could buy after market pistons from a good company for about $1050 with pins and rings.
I did not know about Paul Burke and the pistons he makes or I would have gone that way.
Anyhow I already had the euro headers they were on the car when i bought it and i had a Miller MAF as I helped produce a group buy a couple years ago.
I bought the cams for a little less than $600.
Machine shop work to bore to the 94mm from stock, new valve guides and 6 new valves,4 exhaust and 2 intake and check all the tolerances and clean all the parts was less than $2000. Those valves were after market as well because the BMW valves were like $100 ea??? My machinist checked all the parts for tolerance and fit.
I replaced all the chain guides except the top (they had been done before), had all the injectors cleaned and tested, bought a new clutch and pressure plate, throw out bearing and pilot bearing, trans mounts, new BMW head bolts and rod bolts and all new original size main and rod bearings. This engine had 125k when the piston broke. They do not wear very much.

I pulled the engine with the trans, tore it down, took it to the machine shop, picked it up and began the reassembly checking the bearings with plastigage.
I also had to get the ring end gap set just right which required some filing of the ring at the gap.

The thinking on this process was to get at least the euro engine numbers or a little better. These b36 cams are almost identical to the cams in the euro motor. It had 10:5:1 pistons versus US with 9.8.
I remember building hot rod engines and bigger compression was always good for HP.
These engines breath so much better that the combo of the euro headers and the Miller MAF just made this a simple predictable way to go without getting into the stroker dilemma with all the extra parts to source. Expensive parts.
I could have always gone further with better valve springs and titanium retainers but it just kept getting complicated and more $$$ without much gain.
All up with me doing all the labor I spent about $6000.
It took a couple months working on it some almost every day.

I believe that I am limited by pump gas octane.
If we had 96 octane I could probably get another 20 HP.
These engines don't have knock sensors like they added later so that presents some problem about being conservative with your timing. The new M3 has 12:1 compression and variable valve timing as well as knock sensors so they can get away with that as the electronics can handle adjustments.
I'm not a engineer so I can't answer all the tech questions so I just followed a plan that BMW had used and let their engineering be my guide.

I know nothing about E85 but will watch and learn.

I would expect Phil will get more HP but with more work and expense. You can make this into a money game like some others have (Lucifers Hammer) but I am having fun and feel good about what I built.

[Philo]

Gary.., did you have to bring Ken into the discussion ..., every time I hear "Lucifers Hammer" I want to go twin turbo !

[fewofm]

Thanks all for a great thread and again, congrads Gary for a job well done. I don't believe that I am hijacking this thread and hope I can get some qualified opinions. Perhaps naively, I had my tech put a B36 cam on the exhaust side of my S38 (perhaps misplaced logic was to get more out of the minimal value of bolt on headers while not messing too much with extra fuel hurting ability to pass emissions). The addition of the cam and headers increased hp by 16 horsepower to 248, with perhaps more available with better tuning. Its now time to to the chain guide/rails components and I have the S14 Evo gear to be installed to increase the "street" drivability of the car.

I'd like opinions/advice on putting the B36 cam on the intake side and possible outcome. Emissions is no longer a concern. I don't have another B36 cam (they're in Gary's motor) to install both and contrary to Paul's posting, it was my understanding off of the S38 board that some members were unhappy with drivability with both cams on a stock S38.

Also, if I have him do this, I need a shim kit. Thanks in advance for any imput.

[paul burke]

I don't have another B36 cam (they're in Gary's motor) to install both and contrary to Paul's posting, it was my understanding off of the S38 board that some members were unhappy with drivability with both cams on a stock S38.

When you say "Paul's posting" are you refering to me? If so what post are you talking about?

Paul

[Duke]

When you say "Paul's posting" are you refering to me? If so what post are you talking about?

Paul

OMG! Paul is alive!

[fewofm]

I don't have another B36 cam (they're in Gary's motor) to install both and contrary to Paul's posting, it was my understanding off of the S38 board that some members were unhappy with drivability with both cams on a stock S38.

When you say "Paul's posting" are you refering to me? If so what post are you talking about?

Paul

Yes, Master Paul. My sense is/was that two b36 cams really hurt driveability on a stock S38. A post that you made earlier in this thread led me to believe, ie understand that this may not be the case. Can I get away with two B36 cams? Or will it hurt drivability? Should I move the B36 cam to the intake side? Thanks!

[M5BB]

I'd like opinions/advice on putting the B36 cam on the intake side and possible outcome. Emissions is no longer a concern. I don't have another B36 cam (they're in Gary's motor) to install both and contrary to Paul's posting, it was my understanding off of the S38 board that some members were unhappy with drivability with both cams on a stock S38

I really can't complain about the drivability. Once you get used to the MAF it's all about go...........
It does idle a little more bumpy but here again if BMW can put these cams in the E34 B36 & B38 why can't I run them too.

When I first finished my motor I was running just the B36 intake cam and it was great but the motor needed tweaking for the timing and fuel.
After it spit out a valve shim I added the other B36 cam from
Jeff and have never looked back.
I didn't try any cam gear changes because I screwed up and did not measure the clearance of my pistons and valves.
Higher compression pistons usually means less clearance in the combustion chamber.
Doubt I have much tolerance for cam gear changes although I do have infinitely adjustable cams gears on the cams.
HTH

[paul burke]

OMG! Paul is alive!

"OMG" what is that, some kind of euro performance/trim package for a Honda ?

Paul

[paul burke]

Yes, Master Paul. My sense is/was that two b36 cams really hurt driveability on a stock S38. A post that you made earlier in this thread led me to believe, ie understand that this may not be the case. Can I get away with two B36 cams? Or will it hurt drivability? Should I move the B36 cam to the intake side? Thanks!

Yes, move the B36 cam to the intake side, that alone will add to the overall performance. You can put the exhaust in also but it will require a little more effort when it comes to tuning. The install timing of both intake and exhaust cams must be checked via degree wheel and indicator. As Gary pointed out sometimes there just isn't enought valve pocket (clearance) room and you have to live with what you got.

Have you ever heard two vastly different descriptions of the same type camshaft (284 Schrick for example) installed in two similar engines (mileage, wear etc.) where one guys take is that after the install he lost a lot of bottom end power and he is going to put the stock cam back in while the second guy swears its the best cam he's ever used and it makes more power everywhere?

It comes down to proper install. The S38/B36 cam has almost exactly the same valve event timing as the M30/B35 M90 cams.
The install centers and valve seat areas (affects low rpm signal strength) being the key differences.

My Grandma addressed all the mail she sent to me as a kid to Master Paul Burke. I guess thats the way they did it in the old country. Haven't heard/seen those two words together since, made me laugh !

Paul

[48230M5]

Great numbers! Out of curiosity, what was your maximum timing advance? Before and after dialing it down a bit. I am trying to tune my War Chip as well.

[M5BB]

Someone else asked me for that.
Remember this is with the cams and HC pistons.

WOT- RPM- advance
1080-0 1600-8 2080-16 2600-18 3080-22 3600-20 4080-19 4600-19 5080-19 5600-19 6080-20 6560-22 6640-25 6680-25 6720-25 6760-26

[48230M5]

Thanks a lot. My motor is pretty stock. Miller MAF, War chip, no convertors, BB tri-flow exhaust. The pre-loaded tune on my chip was pretty useless. It had come from a car tuned for a higher altitude. I was just wondering what your advance was like for a baseline. So those are the numbers you ended up with, correct? After tweaking it down due to detonation. I should be able to run a bit more advance than that with the stock S38 low compression pistons. I haven't been able to get on a dyno yet. I really need to, to get this chip maximized safely.

[M5BB]

Go to the Miller web site (you should be a member if you bought a MAF and WAR chip) and get the stock tune for your engine. You can download it and upload to you chip.

[48230M5]

They changed the rules on free membership after you purchased your chip. Even though it suggests that it is free on the site, it now is like $60-$80 to join even after purchasing the chip and MAF. That and a few other things have really aggravated me about Miller Performance. I really want to like them, but a few things have disappointed me. I believe my tune was supposed to be "stock". But it was so lean the car would barely run. I'll inquire again and see if I can get a stock tune that is appropriate for my set up and altitude. How's your cold start? Mine is very poor. Thanks again for the help.

[klrskies]

I just got my miller maf/chip as a gift...I have to pay to be in the club now?

[fewofm]

Yes, Master Paul. My sense is/was that two b36 cams really hurt driveability on a stock S38. A post that you made earlier in this thread led me to believe, ie understand that this may not be the case. Can I get away with two B36 cams? Or will it hurt drivability? Should I move the B36 cam to the intake side? Thanks!

Yes, move the B36 cam to the intake side, that alone will add to the overall performance. You can put the exhaust in also but it will require a little more effort when it comes to tuning. The install timing of both intake and exhaust cams must be checked via degree wheel and indicator. As Gary pointed out sometimes there just isn't enought valve pocket (clearance) room and you have to live with what you got.

Have you ever heard two vastly different descriptions of the same type camshaft (284 Schrick for example) installed in two similar engines (mileage, wear etc.) where one guys take is that after the install he lost a lot of bottom end power and he is going to put the stock cam back in while the second guy swears its the best cam he's ever used and it makes more power everywhere?

It comes down to proper install. The S38/B36 cam has almost exactly the same valve event timing as the M30/B35 M90 cams.
The install centers and valve seat areas (affects low rpm signal strength) being the key differences.

My Grandma addressed all the mail she sent to me as a kid to Master Paul Burke. I guess thats the way they did it in the old country. Haven't heard/seen those two words together since, made me laugh !

Paul

Paul, thanks and glad that you got a laugh out of it!

[M5BB]

If you buy a Miller WAR chip then you have to send in the code to register your product. They then send you an access code to make the WAR program work. Once that is done you can access the files for the ECU that you have.
The 079 ECU has a couple for the different generation of MAF's.

[fewofm]

I'd like opinions/advice on putting the B36 cam on the intake side and possible outcome. Emissions is no longer a concern. I don't have another B36 cam (they're in Gary's motor) to install both and contrary to Paul's posting, it was my understanding off of the S38 board that some members were unhappy with drivability with both cams on a stock S38

I really can't complain about the drivability. Once you get used to the MAF it's all about go...........
It does idle a little more bumpy but here again if BMW can put these cams in the E34 B36 & B38 why can't I run them too.

When I first finished my motor I was running just the B36 intake cam and it was great but the motor needed tweaking for the timing and fuel.
After it spit out a valve shim I added the other B36 cam from
Jeff and have never looked back.
I didn't try any cam gear changes because I screwed up and did not measure the clearance of my pistons and valves.
Higher compression pistons usually means less clearance in the combustion chamber.
Doubt I have much tolerance for cam gear changes although I do have infinitely adjustable cams gears on the cams.
HTH

Gary, what did your butt dyno reveal in adding the second cam?

[M5BB]

The real Dyno is where it's at.
Like Paul said some people swear by this or that cam but put it on the dyno and the truth comes out.
After tuning the advance and fuel this thing became a rocket.
A friend with a relative stock M5 was beside himself with the power when i took him for a ride.
I certainly don't want to sound like a bragger but
This is the kind of power an E46 M3 has or the E34 M5 B38.
Look them up.

What i really want to emphasize is this is just a B38 at 3.5 liters. Just like BMW designed it except with a few pieces of 21st century technology.
Nothing fancy or tricky.

[igotbank]

I already have the same upgrades except the HC pistons and the War chip. i'm def gonna put the car on the dyno before the snow hits. i had Mario L do the work because I don't have the tools at home nor the know how, I'd love to learn though. Thanks for posting this thread. I wondered how much power I could get with these upgrades. I'm a true fan of naturally aspirated motors!

[Randomg]

A friend with a relative stock M5 was beside himself with the power when i took him for a ride.

You definitely feel 60+ hp...

[Cory]

Would it be wrong to touch my monkey?

[M5BB]

I already have the same upgrades except the HC pistons and the War chip. i'm def gonna put the car on the dyno before the snow hits. i had Mario L do the work because I don't have the tools at home nor the know how, I'd love to learn though. Thanks for posting this thread. I wondered how much power I could get with these upgrades. I'm a true fan of naturally aspirated motors!

If you do get to the dyno please post your results so we can get an idea of what the HC pistons are doing.

[Nanajoth]

Its nice to see what your car made at the dyno, very nice!