Gee, thanks Chris for providing such deeply insightful and useful commentary.wkohler wrote:This has disaster written all over it.
Noob M30B35 Build
Who, exactly, is "they"?wkohler wrote:I am glad you found it useful. I strive to be helpful whenever and wherever I can. They love me around here. They think I'm a swell guy.
Also, I'm reminded of a movie quote involving the word "inconceivable", but with "inconceivable" replaced with "love" (oh, I just realized this is probably lost on you since you don't seem to watch TV or movies).
I've never seen the Princess Bride. I've seen The Breakfast Club though.
It is much easier and safer to pull the motor out the top. You are overthinking it. I bought a two post lift to drop subframes. At this rate, that will never happen.
It is much easier and safer to pull the motor out the top. You are overthinking it. I bought a two post lift to drop subframes. At this rate, that will never happen.
Last edited by wkohler on Apr 22, 2014 2:38 AM, edited 1 time in total.
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slimdevil27
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Nov 12, 2011 6:21 PM
- Location: WA
Any particular reason not to pull it out the top?
Reminds me of this...
After nearly forty years in practice as a gynecologist,
John decided he had enough money to retire and take up
his real love, auto mechanics. He left his practice,
enrolled in auto mechanics school, and studied hard.
The day of the final exam came and John worried if he
would be able to complete the test with the same
proficiency as his younger classmates. Most of the
students completed their exam in two hours. John, on
the other hand, took the entire four hours allotted.
John tossed and turned in bed that night, dreading the
next morning when the exam scores would be returned.
The following day, John was delighted and surprised to
see a score of 150% for his exam.
John spoke to his professor after class. "I never
dreamed I could do this well on the exam. But tell me,
how did I earn a score of 150%?"
The professor replied, "I gave you 50% for perfectly
disassembling the car engine. I awarded another 50% for
perfectly reassembling the engine. I gave you an
additional 50% for having done all of it through the
muffler."
Reminds me of this...
After nearly forty years in practice as a gynecologist,
John decided he had enough money to retire and take up
his real love, auto mechanics. He left his practice,
enrolled in auto mechanics school, and studied hard.
The day of the final exam came and John worried if he
would be able to complete the test with the same
proficiency as his younger classmates. Most of the
students completed their exam in two hours. John, on
the other hand, took the entire four hours allotted.
John tossed and turned in bed that night, dreading the
next morning when the exam scores would be returned.
The following day, John was delighted and surprised to
see a score of 150% for his exam.
John spoke to his professor after class. "I never
dreamed I could do this well on the exam. But tell me,
how did I earn a score of 150%?"
The professor replied, "I gave you 50% for perfectly
disassembling the car engine. I awarded another 50% for
perfectly reassembling the engine. I gave you an
additional 50% for having done all of it through the
muffler."
Actually, if you have a 4 post lift, and want to be able to use it for pre- and post-op work, I don't think "easier" is true.wkohler wrote:It is much easier and safer to pull the motor out the top. You are overthinking it. I bought a two post lift to drop subframes. At this rate, that will never happen.
Here's the problem:
You can't pull the engine from the top while the car is on the 4 post lift. At least I can't with MY lift. Why?
Because the hoist legs won't go under the car when it's on the lift. The lift is in the way.
If you say "oh, just raise the lift a couple of inches". Now you've got the problem that the car is 6-8" higher than it would be if it were just on the ground. And I know my hoist (which is a pretty typical hoist) is "challenged" at getting the engine/tranny out even with the car at normal height (it doesn't stretch high enough).
Worse, there's not enough room in my garage at the front of the lift to maneuver the hoist. I could put the car on backwards, but that doesn't fix the first problem and negatively impacts my OCD.
Next if I remove the engine with the car in the driveway or other garage stall I still want to use the 4 post lift for things like removing the exhaust and driveline first and then working on the underside of the car after the engine is out I have to get the car onto the lift without an engine in it. Not impossible, but not easy either.
Now for "safe"? Please be specific on what part of the plan is more safe than generally using a 4 post lift and bridge jack well within design and specifications?
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slimdevil27
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Nov 12, 2011 6:21 PM
- Location: WA
I'm not saying it can't be done but...doing that way is ten times harder than it needs to be. How are you going to support the engine as you lift the car off it? With jack stands on the oil pan? I don't see how to securely hold the engine while you unbolt it, not to mention it still needs to be lifted slightly to remove the motor mounts and brackets before it will come out the bottom.
I will bring my engine hoist and my electric winch over. Pull the engine in the driveway and winch it onto the rack.....backwards and crooked
I will bring my engine hoist and my electric winch over. Pull the engine in the driveway and winch it onto the rack.....backwards and crooked
Look, I really appreciate the help, but it's kinda frustrating that you are making a big deal out of this and clearly not reading what I wrote. I explained how I would support the engine above: with 4 jack stands. 2 on the subframe and 2 on the transmission.slimdevil27 wrote:I'm not saying it can't be done but...doing that way is ten times harder than it needs to be. How are you going to support the engine as you lift the car off it? With jack stands on the oil pan? I don't see how to securely hold the engine while you unbolt it, not to mention it still needs to be lifted slightly to remove the motor mounts and brackets before it will come out the bottom.
I will bring my engine hoist and my electric winch over. Pull the engine in the driveway and winch it onto the rack.....backwards and crooked
I don't understand what the motor mounts have to do to with anything. They don't have to be undone until the car is raised above the engine and the engine is ready to be lifted away from the subframe with the hoist, the very last step.
The offer to bring your hoist over is generous and I would love another set of hands/eyes. If I change my mind and go with using a hoist, I'll do it in the driveway and I have an 18 year old who's capable of helping me push the car up on to the lift after.
The ONLY part of this that seems like more work to me than pulling from the top is disconnecting the suspension pieces. I need to disconnect those anyway while the engine is out because I plan on powder coating them. So it's a wash.
FWIW, this is one of the places where I read about dropping the engine.
http://www.m535i.org/officers/ra/38.html
His technique is slightly different than my plan; I might use it. Specficially instead of supporting the engine/tranny on jack stands and lowering the lift to have them be actually supporting things before unbolting the subframe:
Use the hoist to put upward tension on the the engine from above (lift can be 8-12" or so off the ground), unbolt the subframe, lower engine to the pallet, disconnect hoist, use lift to raise car the rest of the way.
Nice thing about this is the pallet has wheels on it. I need to figure out where to get one of those rolling pallets.
http://www.m535i.org/officers/ra/38.html
His technique is slightly different than my plan; I might use it. Specficially instead of supporting the engine/tranny on jack stands and lowering the lift to have them be actually supporting things before unbolting the subframe:
Use the hoist to put upward tension on the the engine from above (lift can be 8-12" or so off the ground), unbolt the subframe, lower engine to the pallet, disconnect hoist, use lift to raise car the rest of the way.
Nice thing about this is the pallet has wheels on it. I need to figure out where to get one of those rolling pallets.
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slammin_e28
- Posts: 6135
- Joined: Aug 05, 2007 4:57 PM
- Location: 24477
Your lift does bring about various complications.
I'd say drop it from the bottom. Undo the upper strut mounts, subframe, trans mount/crossmember, driveshaft, sway bar, control arms and lift the car up off the assembly. Don't even have to pull the front wheels. However I've only ever done this with a two post lift.
I always had trouble getting the hoist under my car for the simple reason the legs hit the control arms. Had to lift it up Anyway. Last time I took the engine/trans out thru the top (e32 hood struts FTW).
Or just make the radiator core support removable like I did on my e30. Even just the upper portion so you can retain structural integrity of the lower part, if your worried about that. E34s came factory with removable rad supports. Makes life so much easier, especially if you plan on R&Ring the engine in the future.
I'd say drop it from the bottom. Undo the upper strut mounts, subframe, trans mount/crossmember, driveshaft, sway bar, control arms and lift the car up off the assembly. Don't even have to pull the front wheels. However I've only ever done this with a two post lift.
I always had trouble getting the hoist under my car for the simple reason the legs hit the control arms. Had to lift it up Anyway. Last time I took the engine/trans out thru the top (e32 hood struts FTW).
Or just make the radiator core support removable like I did on my e30. Even just the upper portion so you can retain structural integrity of the lower part, if your worried about that. E34s came factory with removable rad supports. Makes life so much easier, especially if you plan on R&Ring the engine in the future.
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slimdevil27
- Posts: 935
- Joined: Nov 12, 2011 6:21 PM
- Location: WA
Look, I really appreciate the help, but it's kinda frustrating that you are making a big deal out of this and clearly not reading what I wrote.
Guilty as charged. I've never pulled a subframe on a 4 post, plenty on a two post, but my gut reaction was that it looked over complicated and dangerous.
It's not the way I would do it, so it sucks. Wanting to powder coat things is just a lame excuse to do it your way
On Thursday I had run the gas tank down close to empty. I parked Vlad on the lift and drove my wife's 135i on Friday.
This morning I was going to meet a guy restoring an E9 and wanted to show him Vlad so I figured I'd use a bit more gas. It wouldn't start. I actually think I really ran it out of gas or the in-tank pump has died and that's that. No doubt it is time to pull the engine.
After watching the Sounders trounce Colorado I dove in. Step one was to unpack my new toy, an underhoist stand.
Getting the IE exhaust off the car was a BITCH. Even with my trusty stand. It might have been slightly easier if I had help, but pulling the exhaust off the headers was just a bear. I ended up using a bunch of PB Blaster and used my heat gun to heat up the exhaust piping so it would expand a little. My back is shot as a result. But I got the damn thing off.
FWIW, I'm seriously considering constructing a new exhaust as part of this project. I really don't like the way the IE fits and I want to build something just a little more subdued sound-wise. The guy restoring the E9 I saw today had fabricated a killer exhaust from magnaflow parts and he's hooking me up with the guy who helped him weld it.
I took tons of pictures of the drive shaft before removing it. I keep learning (!) that I simply can't take enough pictures. I also used a paint pen to mark where everything was aligned, even though I'm putting in a new 'reman' drive shaft. Just in case.
I used Bentley to guide me in removing the drive shaft. I came out easily. I need to order new nuts for the flanges.
Took a picture of how the vibration damper was installed. The Realoem diagram shows it installed backwards to this. Hmmm...
If I find time tomorrow, the plan is to drain and remove the radiator and start removing other stuff. I doubt I'll get enough time with my son to actually drop the engine, but it's possible.
This morning I was going to meet a guy restoring an E9 and wanted to show him Vlad so I figured I'd use a bit more gas. It wouldn't start. I actually think I really ran it out of gas or the in-tank pump has died and that's that. No doubt it is time to pull the engine.
After watching the Sounders trounce Colorado I dove in. Step one was to unpack my new toy, an underhoist stand.
Getting the IE exhaust off the car was a BITCH. Even with my trusty stand. It might have been slightly easier if I had help, but pulling the exhaust off the headers was just a bear. I ended up using a bunch of PB Blaster and used my heat gun to heat up the exhaust piping so it would expand a little. My back is shot as a result. But I got the damn thing off.
FWIW, I'm seriously considering constructing a new exhaust as part of this project. I really don't like the way the IE fits and I want to build something just a little more subdued sound-wise. The guy restoring the E9 I saw today had fabricated a killer exhaust from magnaflow parts and he's hooking me up with the guy who helped him weld it.
I took tons of pictures of the drive shaft before removing it. I keep learning (!) that I simply can't take enough pictures. I also used a paint pen to mark where everything was aligned, even though I'm putting in a new 'reman' drive shaft. Just in case.
I used Bentley to guide me in removing the drive shaft. I came out easily. I need to order new nuts for the flanges.
Took a picture of how the vibration damper was installed. The Realoem diagram shows it installed backwards to this. Hmmm...
If I find time tomorrow, the plan is to drain and remove the radiator and start removing other stuff. I doubt I'll get enough time with my son to actually drop the engine, but it's possible.
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pleasefixitup
- Posts: 1856
- Joined: Nov 21, 2011 2:40 AM
- Location: Chicagoland, Illinois
Thanks for giving me shit about that. You are right I should have tested so I knew for sure. I just did a quick test of the fuel pump (relay trick) and the main pump is running, but not pumping anything. I ran it out of gas (which was my goal, I just didn't expect to run it ALL the way. I guess my goofing around with the mixture this week, to make it run richer worked and it was getting shittier gas mileage thus my calculations of how much gas was left was off).wkohler wrote:Wait, so why didn't you figure out why the car wouldn't start? The in-tank pump will not prevent a car from starting. .
To further verify I did the 'ole "take the gas cap off, bounce the rear of the car, and listen for sloshing" test. No sloshing.
Not exactly ground breaking modifications going on.Feeling grumpy today , carry on.
Got the coolant drained, pulled the radiator, and started disconnecting other stuff. PS pump, cap, fuel, etc...
I'm at the point that I need to pull the strut brace off to make things more accessible. I am getting it powder coated black since I bought it used and slightly rusty.
Tons of pictures so that I can refer back. For example, I have no idea what this wire is for and don't yet know if the B35 harness has a connector for it.
Family is home so I'll either get help from my son now, or I'll have other stuff to do the rest of the day. We'll see...
I'm at the point that I need to pull the strut brace off to make things more accessible. I am getting it powder coated black since I bought it used and slightly rusty.
Tons of pictures so that I can refer back. For example, I have no idea what this wire is for and don't yet know if the B35 harness has a connector for it.
Family is home so I'll either get help from my son now, or I'll have other stuff to do the rest of the day. We'll see...
Got some help from my son this afternoon. We got everything disconnected except steering.
After jacking the car up on the lift using the bridge jack, and leaving it supported by jack stands at the front jack points, we did a few tests to see how my large jack stands would work under the subframe.
In the picture above the car (subframe) is just barely touching the the jackstands. The weight of the front of the car is still entirely supported by the jackstands at the jackpoints. We did a test where we lowered the lift such that the car was supported only by the subframe. It seems like it will work fine.
One only tricky part will be getting the u-joint off the steering box. I could pull the kickpanel in the dash, and pull the steering column out, but it seems easier to just loosen the u-joint nut/bolts at the steering column and then as we raise the car from the sub-frame, ensure it slides of the splines. We thought about figuring out how to suspend the steering box if we unbolted it from the subframe, but just couldn't come up with anything.
Either way we'll have to drain the brake/steering fluid (which I have to do anyway because I'm going to replace the bomb while I'm in there).
After jacking the car up on the lift using the bridge jack, and leaving it supported by jack stands at the front jack points, we did a few tests to see how my large jack stands would work under the subframe.
In the picture above the car (subframe) is just barely touching the the jackstands. The weight of the front of the car is still entirely supported by the jackstands at the jackpoints. We did a test where we lowered the lift such that the car was supported only by the subframe. It seems like it will work fine.
One only tricky part will be getting the u-joint off the steering box. I could pull the kickpanel in the dash, and pull the steering column out, but it seems easier to just loosen the u-joint nut/bolts at the steering column and then as we raise the car from the sub-frame, ensure it slides of the splines. We thought about figuring out how to suspend the steering box if we unbolted it from the subframe, but just couldn't come up with anything.
Either way we'll have to drain the brake/steering fluid (which I have to do anyway because I'm going to replace the bomb while I'm in there).
Just a question, but do you have anything that secures those front jack stands to the lift?
I'm sure you do this all time, but from where I'm sitting it looks pretty precarious if they're just sitting there on the edge of the lift. Especially if your under there torquing away on something.
Other than that, thanks for the detailed set of "instructions"; this is helping my research.
I'm sure you do this all time, but from where I'm sitting it looks pretty precarious if they're just sitting there on the edge of the lift. Especially if your under there torquing away on something.
Other than that, thanks for the detailed set of "instructions"; this is helping my research.
Reasonable question. The jackstands are primary and have about 2" of space between their legs and the edge of the lift ramps. It's highly unlikely that any sort of force could be strong enough to laterally shift the car 2", but just in case, the bridge jack is positioned under the frame rails as backup. It can't be any further forward than it is, or the transmission won't be able to drop, and it's forward of the center-of gravity but not so much that I'd make *it* primary. So it's backup. I also have the wheels under the rockers as a 2nd backup.vinceg101 wrote:Just a question, but do you have anything that secures those front jack stands to the lift?
I'm sure you do this all time, but from where I'm sitting it looks pretty precarious if they're just sitting there on the edge of the lift. Especially if your under there torquing away on something.
Other than that, thanks for the detailed set of "instructions"; this is helping my research.
Ah, I see the bridge jack now. I somehow inferred from your write-up that the bridge jack was at the rear (don't know why I would have thought that).cek wrote:Reasonable question. The jackstands are primary and have about 2" of space between their legs and the edge of the lift ramps. It's highly unlikely that any sort of force could be strong enough to laterally shift the car 2", but just in case, the bridge jack is positioned under the frame rails as backup. It can't be any further forward than it is, or the transmission won't be able to drop, and it's forward of the center-of gravity but not so much that I'd make *it* primary. So it's backup. I also have the wheels under the rockers as a 2nd backup.vinceg101 wrote:Just a question, but do you have anything that secures those front jack stands to the lift?
I'm sure you do this all time, but from where I'm sitting it looks pretty precarious if they're just sitting there on the edge of the lift. Especially if your under there torquing away on something.
Other than that, thanks for the detailed set of "instructions"; this is helping my research.
Carry on.