MyE28.com

I emailed Zionsville Autosport about their radiators -



The want $1035 for the E34 one above

Here is the emails back and forth -

Hello:

We've been spending our time developing products for more recent models. Our downtime is November. It you would like to discuss the possibility at that time, please let us know. Thanks.

Regards,
Jeremy

Zionsville Autosport
Parts Department | (800) 246.6377
www.zionsvilleautosport.com



Duke Samouce wrote:
Can you make one? I know of several people who would want one for
their turbocharged E28.

-----Original Message-----
From: Zionsville Autosport [mailto:newparts@zionsvilleautosport.com]
Sent: Monday, April 09, 2007 1:27 PM
To: samouce@charter.net
Subject: Re: ZA Parts

Hello,

I'm sorry. We do not have the item(s) you requested.

Regards,
Jeremy

Zionsville Autosport
Parts Department | (800) 246.6377
www.zionsvilleautosport.com

So they will not even look into it until November.

Duke M535ti wrote:

T_C_D wrote:I was a little worried about the e36 with the intercooler covering the entire front of the car and no electric fan but it never leaves the middle of the gauge.

I would install a seperate water temp gauge. BMW installed shunts in the temp gauges of the newer cars (not sure about the E36) too keep owners from coming in with cars that they think are over heating due to the temp gauge going past 12 O'clock. The gauge will eventually show an over heat condition but with the shunt, it will stay at the 12 far longer than it should.

I agree with Duke. My E36 w/out a mechanical fan and with only the stock aux. fan switch for now sees 12:00 on the factory water temp gauge when the actual water temp is anywhere from 160ish to 220+. I need to put the clutch fan in for any city driving at ambient temps over 70F. By the time the stock factory gauge sweeps right, it generally doesn't creep and it's usually too late. Don't AMHIK, ask my new head gasket instead.

-tammer

Zionsville is not the only place that will make a custom radiator. Ron Davis radiators have a PDF print out so you can 'build" by measurements your own aluminum radiator. IIRC there was an e24 owner on Roadfly (listen to the prudes say GASP!) that had one built by Ron Davis. He paid 400 to 600 and change for his radiator.

If Ron Davis has a template for the e24 already made it may be cheaper to do a GB with him. Plus he does not have any "seasonal" stipulations.

Count me in if a GB is organized.

Their contact info is:

Ron Davis Radiators
1-623-877-5000

RDAvena wrote:IIRC there was an e24 owner on Roadfly (listen to the prudes say GASP!) that had one built by Ron Davis. He paid 400 to 600 and change for his radiator.

If Ron Davis has a template for the e24 already made it may be cheaper to do a GB with him. Plus he does not have any "seasonal" stipulations.

Count me in if a GB is organized.

Their contact info is:

Ron Davis Radiators
1-623-877-5000

I just called Ron Davis and they quoted me $785.

StreetRodStuff.com says they'll take off $30-40 from their $419 price if we get more than 5 to order at a time. If it's 20-25 orders (Todd, how many do you want to stock? ), they'll go lower. It would be $10 extra/per fitting (for temp senders, expansion tank hose, etc.). They suggest using an 18x20" core, about 2.5" thick (3" at the tanks). 2-3 week build time. "1 year warranty" but they will generally fix/replace any of their stuff for free even if it's 2-3 years old, so the guy on the phone says (Gary, if you want to talk to him). They seem to have lots of experience with a variety of projects and will do just about anything desired.

Skeen wrote:
I just called Ron Davis and they quoted me $785.

StreetRodStuff.com says they'll take off $30-40 from their $419 price if we get more than 5 to order at a time. If it's 20-25 orders (Todd, how many do you want to stock? ), they'll go lower. It would be $10 extra/per fitting (for temp senders, expansion tank hose, etc.). They suggest using an 18x20" core, about 2.5" thick (3" at the tanks). 2-3 week build time. "1 year warranty" but they will generally fix/replace any of their stuff for free even if it's 2-3 years old, so the guy on the phone says (Gary, if you want to talk to him). They seem to have lots of experience with a variety of projects and will do just about anything desired.

Damn for Ron's price you can buy 2 of the SRS ones. The only thing that has to happen now is an agreed upon design of the radiator and enough commitments.

I would like to get rid of the mechanical fan and clutch. The new rad would be great with an integrated electric fan and shroud. How about an oil cooler in rad option?

My coolant purging has stopped for several days now while not alowing the engine to boost at all. I thought I had fixed it with the correct installation of the thermostat. I installed two new U-joints yesterday so the car is healthy for interstate high speed driving. I had a little run in with a new Mustang GT (with the loudest exhaust I have ever heard) this morning. I spanked him, man was he surprised. Well the coolant purged again, not much but it did it. I believe that it is due to a bad thermostat and or clogged radiator and or water pump which is causing slow coolant movement and thus overheating and purging of coolant. This is only manifested under boost when the engine temp rises quickly. I will be installing a new Behr thermostat (75 C), new Behr radiator and new water pump this weekend. If that does not fix the cooling and coolant purge problem, I don't know what will.

If you pick up a copy of Street Rodder magazine and look through the advertisements, there are a number of places who sell custom radiators to the street rod and hot rod crowd. Ron Davis is probably at the high end, I'm sure his radiators are great but I'm also sure you could find one somewhere else for less money.

I bought an aftermarket radiator from these guys for my old Pontiac a few years back: http://www.usradiator.com/ They use what they call "triple flow" technology, where they put baffles inside the radiator core to make the water flow back and forth several times inside the core before it goes back into the engine, and it works great - my water temps dropped more than 20 degrees after I installed the new radiator.

Considering their sales volume it's probably going to be hard to beat the price of a Summit Racing universal radiator, even if you have to pay a local welder to make some modifications.

I did a little data collection today.

Stock Radiator
Core Size 22.5" X 18.25" X 1.25"
Overall Size 26" (at bottom) X 19.25" X 2"
Clearance with Mechanical Fan is about 0.5" (to interference)
Inlet is 1.5" ID and 1.75" OD (on barb)
Outlet is 1.5 ID and 1.75" OD (on barb)

My stock radiator is a dual row radiator with 45 horizontal channels. I'm not sure if its a "tropical" radiator or not.

Seems like that summit radiator will fit and not interfere with the fan. I have contacted summit racing asking for more specific dimensions of the radiator including core size. Until we see the core size, there is no telling if this radiator will actually remove more heat from the coolant.

Duke M535ti wrote: My coolant purging has stopped for several days now while not alowing the engine to boost at all. I thought I had fixed it with the correct installation of the thermostat. I installed two new U-joints yesterday so the car is healthy for interstate high speed driving. I had a little run in with a new Mustang GT (with the loudest exhaust I have ever heard) this morning. I spanked him, man was he surprised. Well the coolant purged again, not much but it did it. I believe that it is due to a bad thermostat and or clogged radiator and or water pump which is causing slow coolant movement and thus overheating and purging of coolant. This is only manifested under boost when the engine temp rises quickly.

HG is leaking under boost.

T_C_D wrote:HG is leaking under boost.

Hope not, the fluid being pushed much less than when the thermostat’s O-ring was in the wrong location.

I saw the coolant bottle fill and purge when I was standing right over it while I was holding the throttle at 3000 rpm from a cold start. No boost and the fluid still purged, this was before I fixed the t-stat install. So all my cards are on a bad radiator and t-stat right now. This was also happening with the Hartge head was on the car and before the second HG went. So there is a common problem with two different heads.

Once all of the new parts are in place and if it is still purging, will start to look at the HG. Crossing my fingers.

Keep in mind that if you keep the mechanical fan, you not only need to clear the radiator fins, but you need to allow enough clearance for engine shifting under load and clearance to allow removal of the fan without removal of the radiator should that prove neccessary. I really wouldn't want to have to drain my coolant and pull the rad just to get the fan clutch off. The stock pieces are fairly tight in that regard already, I don't thick you get away with anything thicker unless you came somehow move it forward instead of back towards the fan.

Any thicker core would likely be best coupled with a quality electric puller fan due to this issue, IMO.

Jeremy

71 degree t-stat

$35 Delivered

75 degree C Behr Thermostat - $26.95 delivered

They have 71 C T-stats for the same cost.

Clicky

Duke, I'm sure this has been covered, and I've just missed it, but do you have the proper thermostat for your housing? Does your tstat housing have the letter "A" on it?
If it has the "A", it is the newer type housing and takes this tstat

11 53 1 713 040

which is 10/85 and newer. Sometimes, housings are changed.
And is it drilled here?

Just curious.

Vance

Hey Guys -

This is a good thread - very helpful. Here are few thoughts:

1 Pressure test your cooling system - if your cap is weak or there is even the slightest leak - it lowers the boiling point of the coolant and causes the e28 to run warm at low speed/idle, but cool at highway speeds. I am 90% sure that (NASCAR) cup cars run a pressurized cooling system to push the boiling point even higher - hence they can run 240F water temps w/o boiling over.

2 Manage your air flow - look at where your radiator is drawing are from (the front) and also look at where the air is going. Make sure the air coming into the front of the car is going through the radiator, not around, under, over it. e28's have old school areo - so give it some thought.

3 Run a fan shroud. Running a fan (electric or mechanical) w/o proper routing of the air is not effective, your just moving air behind the radiator, not through it. Look at a 1st generation water cooled VW for proper ducting - they did a really nice job. There are 2 or 3 rubber trap doors that allow air though the radiator when at speed and the fan is off, but those same rubber doors are sucked closed due to low pressure when the fan is on - all all the air is forced through the radiator fan.

4 Be careful of speeding up or slowing down the water pump, they are designed for a specific RPM range for a specific impeller size - you could end up with a cooling issue in an odd RPM range.

5 Clean your radiator (inside and out), even a little bit of junk on the surface of the radiator decreases its ability to dump heat. I pulled a radiator from a friends Jetta a few years ago - after 50K miles - I sprayed it with Gunk and pressure washed it (gently) and 10 lbs of dirt, bugs, feathers, oil and some of my son's missing Legos came out - I then reinstalled. The H2O temp dropped by 12 degrees F on the high way and 20 F degrees around town.

6 Get the right thermostat - makes a big difference.

7 Keep your engine clean - doesn't really help but it looks nice.

8 Get a big fancy expensive radiator - but only if you have run out of options.

My $.02 worth...please remember I am not a cooling engineer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

SBSP

WooooooooooooooooHoooooooooooooooooo..............success!!!!
(I hope)

First of all, thanks to you guys who are sending me radiator temp sensors, I will use them in the future. I went down to NAPA this morning and they had two M14 X1.5 oil drain plugs. They fit perfectly in the radiator, so I was on for the installation.

I flushed the system and installed the new radiator, T-stat (75 C) and water pump. The old radiator was made in 1992, so it was a replacement. I pulled off the end tanks and discovered that the bottom 25% was clogged with rocks and dirt. The old water pump had some play in the bearing but seemed OK.

Just took the car for a nice test drive and it is running cooler then ever. I boosted here and there (only 7.5 psi) and ran the A/C full blast in stop and go and cruising speed. Temp gauge was 1/4" below 12 O'clock. Checked several times and there was not any coolant purge. The upper radiator hose no longer gets hard. The hoses get hot but not over pressurized like before. I think I have fixed the problem..............................cross your fingers.

Great News in that post Duke.

Awsome news Duke!

Vance

That helps to explain all the head gasket failures...

M635CSi wrote:That helps to explain all the head gasket failures...

My thoughts exactly.

M635CSi wrote:That helps to explain all the head gasket failures...

May have had some factor in the (two) failures but the RA of the head did the lions share of the damage. If it were not the RA and just the cooling issue causing the HG failures, the B35 head that Paul prepared would have lost the HG by now. It has not and the car is as strong as ever.

I am waiting to replace the trans and engine mounts to start pushing it again.

M635CSi wrote:That helps to explain all the head gasket failures...

O.k. due to my ignorance, and probably some others as well, could you please explain? It's probably common sense but it is well known that I have uncommon sense.

GregATL wrote:

M635CSi wrote:That helps to explain all the head gasket failures...

O.k. due to my ignorance, and probably some others as well, could you please explain? It's probably common sense but it is well known that I have uncommon sense.

My guess is that M635CSi is referring to micro overheating of the head due to the restricted coolant flow. This would cause some strain on a HG due to excessive expanding and contracting of the aluminum head vs the iron block. All the more reason that the high RA of the Hartge head lead to HG failure.

Of note - the engine never overheated by indications of the temp gauge. This is why the issue was so hard to diagnose.

Duke M535ti wrote:

GregATL wrote:

M635CSi wrote:That helps to explain all the head gasket failures...

O.k. due to my ignorance, and probably some others as well, could you please explain? It's probably common sense but it is well known that I have uncommon sense.

My guess is that M635CSi is referring to micro overheating of the head due to the restricted coolant flow. This would cause some strain on a HG due to excessive expanding and contracting of the aluminum head vs the iron block. All the more reason that the high RA of the Hartge head lead to HG failure.

Of note - the engine never overheated by indications of the temp gauge. This is why the issue was so hard to diagnose.

When you say "micro overheating" are you referring to a small area of the head that is significantly hotter than it should be based on overall engine temps?

I can understand the concept alright but fail to see how the radiator being restricted would cause this.

GregATL wrote:

Duke M535ti wrote:

GregATL wrote:

M635CSi wrote:That helps to explain all the head gasket failures...

O.k. due to my ignorance, and probably some others as well, could you please explain? It's probably common sense but it is well known that I have uncommon sense.

My guess is that M635CSi is referring to micro overheating of the head due to the restricted coolant flow. This would cause some strain on a HG due to excessive expanding and contracting of the aluminum head vs the iron block. All the more reason that the high RA of the Hartge head lead to HG failure.

Of note - the engine never overheated by indications of the temp gauge. This is why the issue was so hard to diagnose.

When you say "micro overheating" are you referring to a small area of the head that is significantly hotter than it should be based on overall engine temps?

I can understand the concept alright but fail to see how the radiator being restricted would cause this.

Localized overheating occurs after coolant transitions from nucleate boiling to film boiling and the coolant ceases to absorb heat. Nucleate boiling providing very effective cooling when bubbles of steam coming off the surface are quickly swept away by new coolant. Once the transition to film boiling occurs, there are no "steam bubbles" but only steam. The coolant passes over this layer of steam but does not absorb its heat to a significant degree which results in the surface temperature raising. When this happens, there is effectively no coolant (or cooling) against the surface and temperatures raise precipitously causing conditions which may not show up on a "temperature gauge" or in a "bin file."

To say localized overheating of the cylinder head or too high a RA on its surface causes head gasket failure is technically incorrect; they do not cause failure but they do quite often accompany head gasket failure.

There was no excuse for this and Duke has to own the fact that the radiator should never have been in his car. He was cautioned after the last head gasket failure that the radiator and in fact entire cooling system should be inspected and replaced if and where necessary. This was not "so hard to diagnose" this was turbocharging 101.

The reason a restricted radiator contributes to localized overheating is that cooling occurs as a function of temperature differentials; the difference between coolant temperature entering the radiator and coolant temperature exiting the radiator. When coolant exiting the radiator is too hot, the cylinder head temperature is bumped up a notch and, in a turbocharged engine that may be all that's required to push coolant temperatures high enough to allow film boiling of the coolant. When this occurs, thermal hysteresis resists the return to nucleate boiling. For what it’s worth, whenever a turbocharger is installed, the cooling, oiling, fuel, and ignition system should be blueprinted.

M635CSi wrote: There was no excuse for this and Duke has to own the fact that the radiator should never have been in his car.

For what it’s worth, whenever a turbocharger is installed, the cooling, oiling, fuel, and ignition system should be blueprinted.

Righhhhtttttttttttttttttt............. ..............hind sight is 20/20 my friend. So nice of you to jump in with a jab after I found the problem. Please show me where I was "cautioned" about the radiator.

Oh yea, lets add the "blueprinting" of the cooling system to all who want to buy a TCD kit. The kit will also include a new radiator, thermostat, water pump, hoses, coolant tank, cap and clamps.

GET REAL!

Cooling problems is why this thread was started. Looks like there is lots more "blueprinting" to do out there.

Oh yea -

When this happens, there is effectively no coolant (or cooling) against the surface and temperatures raise precipitously causing conditions which may not show up on a "temperature gauge" or in a "bin file."

I will send you over 40 data logs and you will not see any overheating indicated. Send me your email and you can have fun with that Mr. hind sight.

Duke M535ti wrote:

M635CSi wrote: There was no excuse for this and Duke has to own the fact that the radiator should never have been in his car.

For what it’s worth, whenever a turbocharger is installed, the cooling, oiling, fuel, and ignition system should be blueprinted.

Righhhhtttttttttttttttttt...........................hind site is 20/20 my friend. So nice of you to jump in with a jab after I found the problem. Please show me where I was "cautioned" about the radiator.

Oh yea, lets add the "blueprinting" of the cooling system to all who want to buy a TCD kit. The kit will also include a new radiator, thermostat, water pump, hoses, coolant tank, cap and clamps.

GET REAL!

Cooling problems is why this thread was started. Looks like the is lots more "blueprinting" to do out there.

Don't bother Duke - it's pointless. I'm Catholic, so to me he's penance - an aggravation to be endured as recompense for my sins

Duke M535ti wrote:

M635CSi wrote: There was no excuse for this and Duke has to own the fact that the radiator should never have been in his car.

For what it’s worth, whenever a turbocharger is installed, the cooling, oiling, fuel, and ignition system should be blueprinted.

Righhhhtttttttttttttttttt............. ..............hind sight is 20/20 my friend. So nice of you to jump in with a jab after I found the problem. Please show me where I was "cautioned" about the radiator.

No bullshit my friend. YOU had the thread deleted. Least you misunderstand my intention, I have a lot of respect for the efforts you make and some of the results you achieve. What pisses me off is that this was sooo predictable.

Duke M535ti wrote:Oh yea, lets add the "blueprinting" of the cooling system to all who want to buy a TCD kit. The kit will also include a new radiator, thermostat, water pump, hoses, coolant tank, cap and clamps.

GET REAL!

Yes, let's get real... Tell us, what is less expensive; to do the job the way you did or to have the cooling system inspected and replaced as needed when the car is apart? Oh and don't forget, now you've got a system that has been damaged.

Duke M535ti wrote:Cooling problems is why this thread was started. Looks like the is lots more "blueprinting" to do out there.

That is correct. Because people don't like reality doesn't mean that isn't reality.

robeyff wrote:

Duke M535ti wrote:

M635CSi wrote: There was no excuse for this and Duke has to own the fact that the radiator should never have been in his car.

For what it’s worth, whenever a turbocharger is installed, the cooling, oiling, fuel, and ignition system should be blueprinted.

Righhhhtttttttttttttttttt...........................hind site is 20/20 my friend. So nice of you to jump in with a jab after I found the problem. Please show me where I was "cautioned" about the radiator.

Oh yea, lets add the "blueprinting" of the cooling system to all who want to buy a TCD kit. The kit will also include a new radiator, thermostat, water pump, hoses, coolant tank, cap and clamps.

GET REAL!

Cooling problems is why this thread was started. Looks like the is lots more "blueprinting" to do out there.

Don't bother Duke - it's pointless. I'm Catholic, so to me he's penance - an aggravation to be endured as recompense for my sins

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. Mohandas Gandhi

M635CSi wrote: I have a lot of respect for the efforts you make and some of the results you achieve. What pisses me off is that this was sooo predictable.

Well thank you sir. I sure wish that it was "sooo" predictable (to me). I would ditched the radiator in an instant if I really had suspected it.