MyE28.com

Mike W. wrote: Jul 16, 2024 11:02 PM

e28Sean wrote: Jul 16, 2024 5:12 PM Wow. Dodged a heck of a bullet there. Fire bad, okay! Fire bad!

Yeah, a steel box on a stucco wall FTW.

still liking your solor panels?


Andy

south26 wrote: Jul 17, 2024 12:19 AM
still liking your solor panels?


Andy

Very much so. Trying to be pragmatic and reasonable about rate increases I'd estimated a payback of 7-7.5 years. Looks like it's going to be more like 5.5 years, not counting the couple of hundred I get back every year since I oversized it a bit wanting to make sure I had it covered.

I have two regrets, one that I didn't do it earlier, and two that I didn't look into doing a heat pump for heat. Not sure it would have penciled out, but I should have at least investigated it.

I also wish we'd done a heat pump when the AC got replaced. This happened right about the time the solar went on. I don't use much oil anyway, about 1 tank per year, but most of the oil furnace run time is spring and fall. Too cold to be without any heat, too warm for the pellet stove. Perfect for a heat pump though.

I am still happy about the panels we put in. Being in Ohio, January and February they are a waste. During the summer they are great. So happy that I got the panels, with the rising cost of power the panels make summers a little cheaper. My neighbor has 300 or higher bills for electric, I have around 50. Since we do not get money back here for producing more electricity, then we use I went with 85% of my usage for the panels.



Andy

south26 wrote: Jul 17, 2024 9:48 AM I am still happy about the panels we put in. Being in Ohio, January and February they are a waste. During the summer they are great. So happy that I got the panels, with the rising cost of power the panels make summers a little cheaper. My neighbor has 300 or higher bills for electric, I have around 50. Since we do not get money back here for producing more electricity, then we use I went with 85% of my usage for the panels.



Andy

I get a dip in production around November, December and January, but by February it's kicking out pretty good numbers again. It's really been surprisingly flat year round, much more than I expected. I talked with the guy who put them in, he's in the business for decades and he said it was very unpredictable about how much generation what time of year.

On oversizing I didn't care about getting paid, but in spite of what everyone told me, which is no degradation, I figure the panels and the inverter aren't going to put out more as they age and the planet keeps getting warmer so I wanted some headroom. Our local utility, PGE, which burned down half the state over the past few years was going to have to pay for upgrades, which ultimately is going to come from customers and I didn't want to have to pay for it. So I have a $10 a month electric bill year round.

Does this qualify?

Started reaping the benefit of constructing a fenced 40'x40' vegetable/berry garden.
Boysenberries, blueberries and raspberries:

gwb72tii wrote: Jul 17, 2024 8:58 PM Does this qualify?

Started reaping the benefit of constructing a fenced 40'x40' vegetable/berry garden.
Boysenberries, blueberries and raspberries:

It qualifies as far as I'm concerned. I've been in places with wild Blackberries and they were always a delight to pick for breakfast, or whatever. Only problem was they tended to grow by the side of the road where they got dusty. Still good and tasty after a rinse.

south26 wrote: Jul 17, 2024 9:48 AM I am still happy about the panels we put in. Being in Ohio, January and February they are a waste. During the summer they are great. So happy that I got the panels, with the rising cost of power the panels make summers a little cheaper. My neighbor has 300 or higher bills for electric, I have around 50. Since we do not get money back here for producing more electricity, then we use I went with 85% of my usage for the panels.



Andy

do they at least do net billing so any you feed in gets taken off what you have to buy? I get that here, but any I feed in beyond what I have to buy is paid out at like 10% of the rate I have to buy it at so back-feeding the grid doesn't really have any benefit. Its nice that the spring and fall non-AC months offset the summer heat though.

I do wish we'd been able to buy the panels outright rather than the lease setup, but the lease is about $75 a month less than the power bill was almost 10 years ago, and the electric rates have gone up since then. My normal power bills are about $10 a month, which is basically just the charges to stay connected. For reasons I don't entirely understand, the credit we get spring/fall only covers power usage, it can't be applied to the other fees.

Mike W. wrote: Jul 18, 2024 12:17 AM

gwb72tii wrote: Jul 17, 2024 8:58 PM Does this qualify?

Started reaping the benefit of constructing a fenced 40'x40' vegetable/berry garden.
Boysenberries, blueberries and raspberries:

It qualifies as far as I'm concerned. I've been in places with wild Blackberries and they were always a delight to pick for breakfast, or whatever. Only problem was they tended to grow by the side of the road where they got dusty. Still good and tasty after a rinse.

Blackberries up here grow everywhere. We go pick them and make a quick cobbler with vanilla ice cream. Hard to keep a constant weight in the summer in the great PNW.

Mike W. wrote: Jul 17, 2024 2:29 AM

south26 wrote: Jul 17, 2024 12:19 AM
still liking your solor panels?


Andy

I have two regrets, one that I didn't do it earlier, and two that I didn't look into doing a heat pump for heat. Not sure it would have penciled out, but I should have at least investigated it.

I am eyeing an upgrade in this vain. I want solar panels, battery pack, and heat pump. If you could only afford two of the three which would you get?

+2 for heat pump
- We don't have AC, but it's getting a little worse each summer. We have gone from two weeks of hot nights a year to five weeks over 30 years.
- We have another 100 years of forrest fires before things equalize, so house needs to be closed down during smoke events.

+1 for battery pack (vs generator):
- Xcel Energy (our power company) has started the blackouts pre-wind event. We were down for 48 hours this spring.

+1 for solar panels
- self sufficiency

p.s. Seems like solar w/o battery pack is a non-starter. You can't cover power outages (i.e. if the grid is down, your solar is down).

When we got our panels 5 years ago the seller told us battery was not worth much. He suggested a generator instead. Said could not hold a lot and got 20,000 by itself which is how much my panels cost.


Andy

topher800 wrote: Jul 21, 2024 8:37 PM

Mike W. wrote: Jul 17, 2024 2:29 AM

I have two regrets, one that I didn't do it earlier, and two that I didn't look into doing a heat pump for heat. Not sure it would have penciled out, but I should have at least investigated it.

I am eyeing an upgrade in this vain. I want solar panels, battery pack, and heat pump. If you could only afford two of the three which would you get?

Solar is absolutely the first thing that comes to mind. But run the numbers on the other two.

+2 for heat pump
- We don't have AC, but it's getting a little worse each summer. We have gone from two weeks of hot nights a year to five weeks over 30 years.
- We have another 100 years of forrest fires before things equalize, so house needs to be closed down during smoke events.

Heat pump while largely the same equipment as A/C, but with a few extra pieces, is for heat. A/C is for A/C.

+1 for battery pack (vs generator):
- Xcel Energy (out power company) has started the blackouts pre-wind event. We were down for 48 hours this fall.

+1 for solar panels
- self sufficiency

p.s. Seems like solar w/o battery pack is a non-starter. You can't cover power outages (i.e. if the grid is down, your solar is down).

For most people, myself included, solar is a give and take with some pretty significant advantages on the take side. But like many things, it gets complicated. My solar contractor promised me 2Kw of off grid power. One big circuit to run the refrigerator basically. Between the time he bid it, and off grid was not in the bid, just verbal, and the time he did the install, regs had changed and he couldn't do what he wanted to do. He did manage to come up with a kludge with 4 deep cycle batteries, think group 24 in size and a separate inverter along with an extra relay or two. He couldn't have made any money, I just hope he didn't lose any. So I have a modest amount of off grid power. But if you're wanting to run a house A/C, you'd need a massive system. Mine is a 5.5Kw system but usually it's not putting out more than ~3.5Kw. But big electric motors, especially including compressors, take a whole bunch of power to start them. My A/C running load, not starting, just running, is ~7Kw.

Prices may have come down some, but I doubt much, but when I was looking at it ~5 years ago a battery was roughly equal to the cost of the rest of the system. I have some of the highest electric rates in the country so solar was a no brainer for me, but installation rates aren't cheap here either. If you are someplace with $.10 Kwh electric rates, it may not pencil out. Do the math.

heat pump is just an AC with a reversing valve. Nothing overly magical about it, the valve just changes which end the heat blows out of. You get both heating and cooling out of the same box. They work really well when its not stupid cold outside, much more efficient than resistive electric for the same heat output. Depending on your power source it may or may not be cheaper than gas or oil.

gonna agree on the battery being of questionable use. Lots of money, only useful when the grid is down, and they need to be replaced from time to time. Unless your power is out a whole lot a generator will likely be a better value. If you've got propane or natural gas you can get one that runs off that and not have to fart around with gasoline that goes bad.

I'll reply without quoting everybody:

Electricity is about 14 cents kWh in Colorado.

I do have Natural Gas. Didn't think of that for a generator.

Telsa Wall is $10k (not installed). With rebates, a friend is getting a Tesla Wall for about $6k installed.

I don't expect to run A/C with the battery during an outage. But it would cover up to about 24 hours, and I assumed with solar I would be covered a bit longer.

As we have been working on a massive off-grid project in the hills outside Ojai, CA (Mid Ventura County) for the last several years, I have learned a lot about alternative fuels and PV systems in general. Ojai moves between seasonal extremes throughout the year, so the power demand is larger than most areas (it can resemble high desert conditions more than coastal plains it sits above).
While our system is supplying a very large project (45 acres, 6.5K s.f. Main House, +/-7.5K s.f. accessory structures, Pool, Landscape, etc.), the principles are the same: Panels to Battery Storage to Inverters to High Voltage Electrical stand-up Service with a Generator for recharge/backup.
It's just a matter of scale but our current system is:
-66kW PV Array (about 300 panels)
-Inverters
-Microgrid Storage Battery Supply (3P 408VAC, 250kW output)
-150kW Generator (Propane)
-400A 3P Electrical Service Panel (current predicted engineered site load is +/-270A) with step-down transformers

-Generators: If you're going to have a battery stored systems, the generator is there to recharge the battery packs, not to take over the electric service. This is a big detail that even electrical professionals without PV experience misunderstand. This type of arrangement has some streamline benefits as you keep the electrical supply lines intact when the generator kicks in. In short, the whole system is always fed from the battery pack regardless if it's getting power from the PV array or the generator. This aspect obviously changes when you are still reliant on grid power, but if you were to configure a battery storage system that is completely off-grid for when you loose power, this setup is ideal; however you need big battery storage capacity.

-Fuel: Note that Propane and NG fuel delivers less power than diesel per unit (about 10-15%) so sizing the generator needs to take this into account. You will have to look at the available models as you will have to up-size the generator for propane/NG.

-Equipment Life Cycle: This is often overlooked in PV off-grid systems when comparing to line grid power. In line grid power the life cycle for items like stand-up service panels, meters, transformers are long term or 'lifetime" (+50yrs). Most of these are on the utility company (you pay for it monthly in your use costs obviously). PV equipment has a much lower life-cycle: PV panels are +/-20yrs, Battery Supply +/-15yrs, Inverters +/-10-15yrs. These replacement costs need to be calculated long-term. For small systems it isn't terrible (not great) but for large systems like our clients above, it's massive (the Microgrid Battery unit carries a near $500K price tag alone). Of course one has to calculate the natural cost decreases as technology advances; PV systems will follow this trend as they become more widespread. For instance, current PV panel designs are advancing at rapid paces; a panel system you put in 5-7 years ago is already old tech and much less efficient/powerful than current panels (not accounting for performance drop-offs as they age). When replacement time comes around, our clients will likely be able to cut down the amount of panels to yield the same amount of power generation due to new technology (although that is near impossible to calculate now). Changes in battery technology will yield similar results (e.g. sodium batteries vs. LiO. This could be a big game-changer in terms of costs if they can perfect it which they're working on).

The residential PV market is really a mess; you would think that in today's market, with state building code mandates (current 2022 CA code now requires a working PV system for all new homes) you would expect there would be installers/suppliers lined up around the block to fill the demand. Almost every PV consultant/installer/designer I have met on projects over the last 5 years aren't in business anymore (we're on our third for that Ojai project).
I would do it as we have perfect roof orientation with a relatively low power consumption (but then again maybe that isn't a good thing?). I don't even have AC at our house although I'm one more hot summer week away from calling a HVAC sub to get that component added to our central heat system (our office generates a lot of heat and I'm sure our PC's and servers would appreciate not being run in 80F degree environments). I would especially do this if I were to get an electric car as a replacement for the E39 (gasp!)

this passed Friday I closed on my first house. finished garage, heated, 220v, 200amp service. been pressure washing the hell out of the floor. Previous owner spent decades spilling mopar oil on almost every square inch of the garage. its musty and stinks inside. hoping with more degrease scrubbing and maybe some bleach down the drain and it will be more bearable.

Untitled by Aaron Wey, on Flickr
Untitled by Aaron Wey, on Flickr

Congrats on your first house!
Green with envy for that garage and workshop; that looks very promising.

vinceg101 wrote: Aug 20, 2024 11:45 AM Congrats on your first house!
Green with envy for that garage and workshop; that looks very promising.

thank you! will definitely keep the page updated as things change. doing a handful of things in the house before painting but garage has some pegboard to come down and drywall to patch too so more to come.

I am super jelly of that garage, my dude. Nice score! Use it in good health.

it's that time of the year for harvesting. Home grown veggie's taste better than anything store bought:

Do you can or freeze any?


Andy

south26 wrote: Sep 11, 2024 10:02 PM Do you can or freeze any?


Andy

Tomatoes yes, but the rest we try to eat seasonally. Pulling out a jar of your own canned tomatoes in February to make a pasta sauce is so much better than the stuff in stores.

I agree with that. We started shredding a bit of zucchini to freeze. Also canning for pickles.

Andy

Never tried freezing zucchini before. How does it turn out?

George

gwb72tii wrote: Sep 13, 2024 6:56 PM Never tried freezing zucchini before. How does it turn out?

George

not bad. I like making bread from it and fritters. The sliced ones I freeze I use for stir fry.


Andy