Noob M30B35 Build

Post by **Justin_FL** » Jun 22, 2014 2:42 PM

Seems like it would be better to leave the relays so they can be in the glove box, only since there is less tampering on the harness and it is a nicer environment for electrical components. The M5 has two in the glove box near the ECU. I don't particularly remember how they mount and the M5 is surrounded by other cars so I can't open the doors.

Post by **tig** » Jun 22, 2014 2:52 PM

Justin_FL wrote:Seems like it would be better to leave the relays so they can be in the glove box, only since there is less tampering on the harness and it is a nicer environment for electrical components. The M5 has two in the glove box near the ECU. I don't particularly remember how they mount and the M5 is surrounded by other cars so I can't open the doors.

Way too late for that.

Post by **tig** » Jun 22, 2014 2:54 PM

BuzzBomb wrote:
cek wrote: On e32/e34 harnesses the relays are by the ECU, and there's nowhere to mount them securely in the glove box.
Fixed

Fixed. Fixed.

Post by **tig** » Jun 23, 2014 3:09 AM

Well, that was much, much harder than I thought it would be. But I got it done.

I want to wait to final-wrap it until it's in the car, I think.

BuzzBomb · Post by **BuzzBomb** » Jun 23, 2014 9:46 AM

Well done. I think this is why most people drop the idea of having a clean install and stuff relays under carpet, etc. The Depot carries the cloth tape to wrap the harness with, which would give it a more factory look, but there are a lot of car restorers and shops that swoop in and buy it all since it's hard to find elsewhere.

Post by **tig** » Jun 23, 2014 9:49 AM

BuzzBomb wrote:Well done. I think this is why most people drop the idea of having a clean install and stuff relays under carpet, etc. The Depot carries the cloth tape to wrap the harness with, which would give it a more factory look, but there are a lot of car restorers and shops that swoop in and buy it all since it's hard to find elsewhere.

I'm going to be using F4 tape to wrap it. I have a nice supply of cloth tape, but think the F4 tape will hold up better.

tn535i · Post by **tn535i** » Jun 23, 2014 1:29 PM

cek wrote:I know you all were wondering if I'd ever find my flywheel.

Well I did.

It was at the machinists...

It looks nice and shiny but... It looks like it was fly cut on a rotary table ? I didn't think that's how you should do a flywheel and the step for the PP is now gone. Won't that affect the pressure on the friction surface or are you using something different than stock PP and friction disc. Just curious.

It looks like the work you are doing is basically outstanding. We have tried to put that attention to detail in the e30 project my son and I have worked on but we skipped the engine for now and rarely find the time to work on it.

Sportfury70 · Post by **Sportfury70** » Jun 23, 2014 1:37 PM

cek,
This thread is awesome. We never got a chance to get together last time when I needed to do my control arms, but I'm still just right up the road in Kirkland. If you ever need a second person or odd ball tool let me know. Feel free to pm and we can exchange phone #s. I may still have your email too if you prefer that way. God knows theres always work to be done on my car too lol.

Keep up the awesome posting!

-John

tn535i · Post by **tn535i** » Jun 23, 2014 2:10 PM

Kirkland... Hmmm. My 105 yr old grandmother lives in Totem Lake and my aunt in Woodenville. Next time I'm out that way, probably September... and if you don't think it would be too strange of me to ask... IM me a phone number and I'll give you a call. Maybe I could stop by to have a look at the progress and talk BMW's. Always great to meet fellow board members and enthusiasts.

vandiesel · Post by **vandiesel** » Jun 23, 2014 2:13 PM

I too love this thread and have the same car teed up and ready. Will start next winter. This motivated me to go all the way with my new 535is

Post by **tig** » Jun 23, 2014 3:08 PM

tn535i wrote: It looks nice and shiny but... It looks like it was fly cut on a rotary table ? I didn't think that's how you should do a flywheel and the step for the PP is now gone. Won't that affect the pressure on the friction surface or are you using something different than stock PP and friction disc. Just curious.

I have no freaking idea. This is the first flywheel I've actually ever touched or looked at up close. I bought it off a guy on the forum. From a previous post in this thread:

cek wrote:Bought a flywheel from a guy on the forum here. It came while I was fishing last week.

It was billed as a "early 533/M5 variety". I'm not sure that's what it is, because although it weighs about 17lbs it has tabs on it, where all others I've seen are smooth all the way around.

Did I get mis-led?

For example, here's pictures from other theads showing a 533 flywheel. Looks totally different:

A shameless asshole named Kyle said:

Kyle in NO wrote:I wouldn't touch that flywheel with a 10' pole. It's so incredibly butchered. How do you even know its still balanced properly? I would demand a refund if that junk showed up at my door.

I've since had it balanced. I'm not sure what "step for PP" means.

Maybe I should source another one (or shave the one from Vlad's B34 down?)?

Post by **tig** » Jun 23, 2014 3:14 PM

tn535i wrote:Kirkland... Hmmm. My 105 yr old grandmother lives in Totem Lake and my aunt in Woodenville. Next time I'm out that way, probably September... and if you don't think it would be too strange of me to ask... IM me a phone number and I'll give you a call. Maybe I could stop by to have a look at the progress and talk BMW's. Always great to meet fellow board members and enthusiasts.

I actually am in Bellevue. Please do come visit when you are out here. Email me via the forum and we can exchange contact info.

kzolee · Post by **kzolee** » Jun 23, 2014 4:50 PM

For my untrained eye, that flywheel looks properly machined.

tn535i · Post by **tn535i** » Jun 23, 2014 6:40 PM

cek wrote:

I'm not sure what "step for PP" means.

If you look at this picture above you'll see the friction surface is proud of the outer ring where the PP is bolted down. There is supposed to be a step there (1/2mm or so, maybe 1mm ?) I'm not sure of the spec but it does decrease the gap between the PP and the flywheel a little and part of the stack up.

I think your flywheel was put on a rotary table under a milling machine to make the cut outs in the OD between bolt locations to lighten it. This has removed a lot of the surface the PP would normally rest on. Is that a problem? IDK but I've seen PP that are not completely flat at the bolt locations but since the whole thing rests on a flat surface if it draws up a little around the bolt who cares. In this case maybe it results in some distortion of the PP so it's not nice and parrallel. But I really don't know if that could be a problem here or not.

In the process of doing what I think was done it may also mean the surface is no longer true to the backside where it mounts to the crank. Again I think because either before or after the cut outs it looks like they used a big fly cutter (think like a lawn mower) to just shave the surface down while they spun the thing around under the cutter with the cutter offset from the center. You should be able to see that. Run your fingernail across the surface and if you can feel it it's a no go. If it feels smooth then bolt it up on the crank and use an indicator to see if it's true when you spin it. Put inward pressure on the Flywheel to be sure it's up against the thrust bearing and rotate a little at a time. Spec might be 0.1mm or about .004" total run out IIRC but I would want it to be about 1/2 that or less. If it's not it's no longer true enough to use without turning it at which point you could put the step back in it and rebalance but still have those gaps.

To be on the page with Kyle it kinda scares me. The proper way to lighten is to put in a lathe and start hogging material out of the backside. Grind the friction surface smooth and also rebalance. This is how we lightened one we did. I'm lucky to have access to a lathe at work and honestly what's been done abbove looks like a lot more work.

unt0uchable · Post by **unt0uchable** » Jun 25, 2014 11:51 AM

I took the time out of most all of yesterdays work day to read this thread front to back (almost). I hit every page and learned a heck of a lot. It really makes me want to dive into rebuilding one of these just so it can look like your final product. The powder coating, plating, painting; everything looks superb, and I'm sure that OCD personality of yours loves every bit of it.

Keep the updates rolling. It for pretty intense when people were on your ass for wanting to drop the engine out the bottom. Glad that worked out well!

In for moar updates!

Mike W. · Post by **Mike W.** » Jun 25, 2014 12:40 PM

tn535i Makes good points as usual, and I thought that picture looked familiar.

Anyway, I agree, it should be stepped, given how a diaphram pressure plate works it may or may not reduce clamping pressure, but it would diminish the effective life of the clutch by the 1 or 2MM of the step. I've also seen flywheels, as in the last one I had surfaced by a machinist I hold in high regard, flycut like this one, but then machined down to reestablish the step. I had no issues with it and was actually using a lighterweight E12/533 clutch in a 535 in order to try to limit pedal pressure in what was then my wife's car.

Post by **tig** » Jun 25, 2014 12:45 PM

Given the fear, uncertainty, and doubt I now have about this flywheel, I'm probably going to source another flywheel (or lighten the one I have that's still attached to Vlad's old motor).

FWIW, here's how the PP sits on this flywheel:

I still am not quite sure what problem you guys are talking about.

Note that my machinist balanced this flywheel and said it was good to go.

Mike W. · Post by **Mike W.** » Jun 25, 2014 1:26 PM

I don't think it's a throwaway, it just needs a little more. Stock there is a step, the surface the friction disc rides on is 1-2MM higher than where the pressure plate ears mount. That provides additional preload. It could still be machined in after removing the locating dowels.

On weight it's odd if it's ~17 pounds. That is roughly the weight of a E12 flywheel, without additional machining. 535's are in the 22 range and 533s in the 14.5 area. Since you're going B35 you don't need the motronic tabs would tend to help ID it. Nothing wrong with an E12 flywheel as long as you're M1.1 or 3, not M1.0A.

BuzzBomb · Post by **BuzzBomb** » Jun 25, 2014 1:33 PM

Mike W. wrote:Stock there is a step, the surface the friction disc rides on is 1-2MM Higher than where the pressure plate ears mount.

Fixed.

Mike W. · Post by **Mike W.** » Jun 25, 2014 3:39 PM

BuzzBomb wrote:
Mike W. wrote:Stock there is a step, the surface the friction disc rides on is 1-2MM Higher than where the pressure plate ears mount.
Fixed.

Correct you are, I misspoke. Corrected.

Post by **tig** » Jun 25, 2014 4:02 PM

I just spoke with my machinist and told him about the raised portion. He said he had noticed this and assumed I was using a custom clutch.

He recommends I bring in this flywheel along with the stock one I have and he'll look at them. Option A is to machine down the already lightened one to provide the raised surface. Option B is to lighten the other one and use it. We will decide once he can have them both in hand.

Thanks everyone for being so diligent on my behalf!

trevmmeister · Post by **trevmmeister** » Jun 25, 2014 11:42 PM

cek did you paint or powder coat your head?

Post by **tig** » Jun 25, 2014 11:46 PM

trevmmeister wrote:cek did you paint or powder coat your head?

No, I shaved it.

OcCoupe · Post by **OcCoupe** » Jun 25, 2014 11:47 PM

My knob is powder coated.

Post by **tig** » Jun 28, 2014 4:09 PM

This diagram confuses me.

I thought the FPR end of the fuel rail was the "exit". If that's right then the fuel cooler cools the fuel on it's way back to the tank!?

BuzzBomb · Post by **BuzzBomb** » Jun 28, 2014 4:32 PM

cek wrote:This diagram confuses me.

I thought the FPR end of the fuel rail was the "exit". If that's right then the fuel cooler cools the fuel on it's way back to the tank!?

You are correct. Logically it doesn't make sense in a performance sense, but maybe they were taking the passive-aggressive approach by thinking it would be a bad idea to return hot fuel to the tank, which would possibly raise the temp of fuel being delivered to the engine? Or in extreme conditions they thought it might vapor lock on it's way back to the tank. If I had it in my car, I'd probably reverse plumb it.

Post by **tig** » Jun 28, 2014 4:45 PM

Thanks BuzzBomb. That sorta makes sense.

Even though I've replaced my heater valve I don't remember how the hoses hook up. RealOEM isn't much help and I don't have any good pictures.

This is the new hose, that I believe goes from the outlet (bottom) of the heater valve to the heater core.

1) This goes to the TOP nipple on the heater core, right?
2) This new hose with the hook is too long. I assume I need to cut it even though it has wider sections on the end. Is that right?
3) The output of the head (gooseneck) goes to the input on the heater valve. Right?

EDIT:

I found my old hose. It's clear it was hooked to the lower nipple on the heater core. It's way too short to have been connected to the top nipple.

Does it matter? Logically it makes sense to me you'd want the lower nipple of something that holds fluid to be the "exit". So it is possible that the PO had this hooked up backwards. Again RealOEM and my pics are no help.

buzby · Post by **buzby** » Jun 28, 2014 4:52 PM

I used to work with industrial engines, taking automotive gasoline engines and converting to industrial use. They were also EPA certified and operated with three way catalyst. Cooling the fuel on the return is correct. Once engine has run a while the return fuel increases in temperature, if not cooled in extreme situations can cause to much vapor in fuel tank, unwanted expansion of the fuel and heat the returning fuel to engine. This can cause power de-rate, vapor lock and other issues.
Dave

Post by **tig** » Jun 28, 2014 6:20 PM

I pulled the clutch off the old engine.

Interesting to see the wetness in there; not horrible, but the main seal was leaking as I suspected.

You'll recall that the REAL reason for this project is Vlad's starter was failing to engage. I had read that replacing the B34 start was such a bitch that I decided to spend a year building a whole new engine instead. Anyhoo, I was curious about how the starter was actually failing. The teeth on the flywheel are fine. The teeth on the starter are fine too. So I guess it is the solenoid just not engaging all the way all the time.

Old clutch. I have no idea if this is 'a lot of wear', 'moderate wear', 'no wear'. What do you experts say? Do people buy used clutches? What's this thing worth?

Lightened flywheel. vs stock E28/B34 flywheel.

It's not super clear in this pic, but the 'lip' for where the PP touches is maybe 1/4 a millimeter. This shows it better.

I'm still going to take both flywheels to my machinist and have him help make the call, but I can't believe that much material will have an impact on how tight the PP holds the clutch.

Post by **tig** » Jun 28, 2014 6:59 PM

Uh. Wow. I think I've done everything I could possibly do without the motor in the car!

Steering is back together.

Tomorrow we'll get 'er done. The engine is off the engine stand!

tn535i · Post by **tn535i** » Jun 28, 2014 7:26 PM

On the fuel cooler. If you want to move heat from the fuel to something else it works best to do that on the hottest fuel with the greatest delta. That would be the return.

On the flywheel. I suggest again you put it on the crank with old bolts and snug it up and check runout. If the runout is minimal then work with it but if it's excessive you have a problem that won't go away regardless of what you do unless you machine the whole friction surfacr flat and rebalance. My biggest intial fear was runnout then the surface finish then the step. A new clutch probably means step is not a ig deal and you might get a liitel less life. There should be a spec for thickness on an old disc and yours does not look too bad. I'm thinking it has been replaced and the old flywheel also machined sometime reducing the step. I think this is common.

Not sure your machinist can check runnout as well as you can bolted to the actual crank. The precision and quality of a BMW crank is outstanding and the mounting surface of both parts should be very clean when going together.

Looking good.

dsmith · Post by **dsmith** » Jun 28, 2014 8:07 PM

On the heater hose, yes bottom of heater core and cut to length.

Post by **tig** » Jun 28, 2014 11:21 PM

THE ENGINE IS IN!

CJ, his buddies, and my wife dropped the engine in tonight.

Smiles all around as it went in.

Took a few minutes to finagle it onto the engine mounts.

Julie's job was to hold the hood up. CJ's job was to be a know-it-all.

Looks awesome!

My job after dinner tonight is to get the wiring harness wrapped up.

Feels so damn good.

wkohler · Post by **wkohler** » Jun 29, 2014 3:34 AM

Congrats. It looks better in the car than it did on a stand.

Spec on a new clutch is 10mm. The discs really never seem to wear out. Pressure plates get old and stuff but none of the BMW mechanics I know have ever replaced a clutch on an M30 due to wear.

kzolee · Post by **kzolee** » Jun 29, 2014 6:24 AM

cek wrote:THE ENGINE IS IN!

*****

My job after dinner tonight is to get the wiring harness wrapped up.

Looks fantastic!

Don't forget the engine ground points, like me before first start...

trevmmeister · Post by **trevmmeister** » Jun 29, 2014 10:59 AM

Is the head cover even bolted on?

wkohler · Post by **wkohler** » Jun 29, 2014 11:25 AM

trevmmeister wrote:Is the head cover even bolted on?

No because he's going to need to refresh the head before it's done. Those are designed to be able to be removed or installed while the engine is in the car.

unt0uchable · Post by **unt0uchable** » Jun 29, 2014 11:27 AM

That looks fan-fuckin-tastic! You must be relieved. Looks right at home in there all shiny and nice and shit.

Going to take a video of the first attempt at starting?

Can't to hear it roar.

Post by **tig** » Jun 29, 2014 12:26 PM

trevmmeister wrote:Is the head cover even bolted on?

No the valve cover is not bolted on. There's no oil in there yet (just assembly lube). I'll be putting in special break in oil, running it for 20min, then final torque of head bolts and a check of valve adjustment. Then new oil. Then drive.

Post by **tig** » Jun 29, 2014 12:28 PM

kzolee wrote:
cek wrote:THE ENGINE IS IN!

*****

My job after dinner tonight is to get the wiring harness wrapped up.

Looks fantastic!

Don't forget the engine ground points, like me before first start...

Yea, I have these on my list. Thanks for the reminder...I'm sure I've fforgot something...

Post by **tig** » Jun 29, 2014 12:29 PM

unt0uchable wrote:That looks fan-fuckin-tastic! You must be relieved. Looks right at home in there all shiny and nice and shit.

Going to take a video of the first attempt at starting?

Can't to hear it roar.

Yep, it'll either be a candidate for America's funniest home video or epic. Next weekend is the goal.

Post by **tig** » Jun 29, 2014 3:10 PM

Coil.

The B35 coil is different than the B34 coil and the B35 plugs want you to mount it near the firewall.

I've seen others do this with custom brackets and with just bolting it to one of the nuts that holds the fuel cooler lines.

From the donor 735i grabbed this bracket, which I had thrown in with everything to get zync plated. I didn't remember what it was for, and I can't find it on the 735i diagrams on RealOEM, but I'm assuming it was the bracket that held the coil in place on the E32.

I bent it 90 degrees and I have three choices of where I can mount it.

One, on the firewall; either using one of the studs that hold the insulation in place or with some self tapping screws. This will be the easiest to mount and mostly 'out of the way'. Downside it it will be lower and thus closer to the headers; heat might be a concern.

Two, right above where the fuel cooler lines are held to the fender. This will be relatively easy to mount; two self-tapping metal screws/bolts. Downside is it will be a PITA to get to #5 & #6 spark plugs.

Three, farther to the rear; even more out of the way. But getting a drill in there to tap the holes for screws will be impossible.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Post by **tig** » Jun 29, 2014 3:49 PM

tn535i wrote:On the flywheel. I suggest again you put it on the crank with old bolts and snug it up and check runout. If the runout is minimal then work with it but if it's excessive you have a problem that won't go away regardless of what you do unless you machine the whole friction surfacr flat and rebalance. My biggest intial fear was runnout then the surface finish then the step. A new clutch probably means step is not a ig deal and you might get a liitel less life. There should be a spec for thickness on an old disc and yours does not look too bad. I'm thinking it has been replaced and the old flywheel also machined sometime reducing the step. I think this is common.

Not sure your machinist can check runnout as well as you can bolted to the actual crank. The precision and quality of a BMW crank is outstanding and the mounting surface of both parts should be very clean when going together.

I don't know what runout is or how to measure it. Bentley's lists a "Clutch disc runout" but doesn't show where you measure it. Please advise. Thanks.

Post by **tig** » Jun 29, 2014 4:33 PM

Hmmm... New AC belt is too short. Somehow I got a 13x810mm belt (I believe from Blunt).

I'm using the B34/E28 compressor.

RealOEM calls for 12.5x800mm for the E28 and 12.5x855 for the E32.

The 865mm long belt I have for the PS pump is WAY too long, so the E32 belt, at only 10mm smaller will likely be too big too.

Can you buy belts in arbitrary lengths? I figure 820-845 will be about right.

Post by **tig** » Jun 29, 2014 6:41 PM

Crud. I wished I would have noticed this when I was splicing it in. The main relay connector from the donor B34 harness is busted and wont attach to the fuse box!

I need to find a replacement stat. Anyone local to Seattle have a B34 harness you'd be willing to snip about 4" off of?

Post by **tig** » Jun 29, 2014 7:57 PM

The M30B35 Swap FAQ does not explain the whole air filter housing thing very well.

It appears the choices are:

Use the B34 housing

Must use B34 rubber boot between the AFM/MAF and throttle body.
Can't use B35 valve cover mounting points for AFM, but must mount AFM to B34 air filter housing bracket.
Looks oldskool next to the the modern B35 motor and hides the sexy powder coated B35 valve cover.

Use the B35/E32/E34 housing

Requires heavy modification to the filter housing mounts welded to the fender, for which I can't find any pictures or instructions about.
Uses mounts on top of valve cover.
Sits so close to the valve cover that it actually rubs on the spark plug wires. Bob (Das Paracutefarfugnugen) had his #1 wire wear through.
No obvious way to make it 'fit' to the headlight backing.
Looks factory and better looking compared to the E28 housing. Sexy powder coated B35 valve cover is visible.

Use a cone style filter with custom extension tubing

All the 'experts' say these filters are crap and the world will end if they are used.
Must spend $$$ on fabricating tubing a heat shield. Some say TCD carries a kit, but I don't see it on the site.
Looks sexy as hell (but not OE) compared to the E28 housing. Sexy powder coated B35 valve cover is visible.

Who else has done the B35/E32/E34 housing? Do you have instructions and pictures that show how you made it fit? Does it ACTUALLY fit (I'm super skeptical).

For now I'm going with the orignal B34 parts just to get running. This is muy disappointing.

Lots of stuffs hooked up this afternoon. Wire harness (mostly) wrapped (see previous post

). Coolant hoses mostly in place. Etc...

Crazy_Canuck · Post by **Crazy_Canuck** » Jun 29, 2014 10:13 PM

cek wrote:Can you buy belts in arbitrary lengths? I figure 820-845 will be about right.

Yes, yes you can!

kzolee · Post by **kzolee** » Jun 30, 2014 2:58 AM

cek wrote:Coil.

The B35 coil is different than the B34 coil and the B35 plugs want you to mount it near the firewall.

It is different, but functionally the same. You can use the B34 coil on its original location.

kzolee · Post by **kzolee** » Jun 30, 2014 3:11 AM

cek wrote: Who else has done the B35/E32/E34 housing? Do you have instructions and pictures that show how you made it fit? Does it ACTUALLY fit (I'm super skeptical).

It fits, I did it also.

Here's some information:

http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=101481

Post by **tig** » Jun 30, 2014 3:12 AM

kzolee wrote:
cek wrote:Coil.

The B35 coil is different than the B34 coil and the B35 plugs want you to mount it near the firewall.

It is different, but functionally the same. You can use the B34 coil on its original location.

Not if you want to use the B35 spark plug harness, unmodified.