Noob M30B35 Build

[12valves]

That's a pretty nice dyno result. And I bet tuning could put a bigger bump in the middle of that torque curve.

[wkohler]

So, how many miles is the break-in process?

[tig]

So, how many miles is the break-in process?

Seems like everyone has an opinion on this. My machinist says 1000 miles. My tune guy says its already broken in.

I'm going to split it down the middle. The key is to avoid long periods of constant rpm. Lots of hard pulls with subsequent deceleration with compression.

[unt0uchable]

...After installation I adjusted the throttle cable & TPS using the "I can hear the click" method. Off for a drive to see if it helped...

How'd it drive after all of this?

Those dyno results have got to be a nice number to see. Nearly 200whp from a very nice b35.

Hope you get that drop and spike figured out. That things sounds like a kitten on the dyno man! Awesome work. Just pure awesome.

[tig]

I just got back from 5erWest. Good news; bad news...

Good news: The engine performed beautifully! It now has just shy of 1000 miles on it and is officially broken in. It pulls incredibly hard, sounds great, and just generally operates as perfect as it can without being tuned.


Bad news: On the back-side of Mount Hood we stopped for a break and I figured it would be smart to check under the car...just in case. I'm glad I did and I'm sad I did.... there was a quarter sized spot of oil. Uh, oh.

After we stopped at the Full Sail Brewery in Hood River for lunch looked closer and there was a little oil on the bottom of the bell-housing and some splatter back on the exhaust support at the back of the tranny. Not a good sign.

I just put it up on the lift and looked around.


Ugh. However, if you look closely at this pic, you'll see some moisture up where that permatex is by the oil pan joint at the bell-housing...


Based on what I can see without unbolting anything I'm very (perhaps delusional) hopeful that it's coming from the oil pan gasket at the right-rear.

I scraped off the excess permatex and cleaned that area. Tomorrow after driving to work I'll look again.


Please say a prayer for me tonight that this is it, and that it's not my rear seal or seal-cover gasket. I really, really, really do not want to take it all apart again

In other news: Those plugs I bought at ACE for the reference sensor holes in the bell-housing? Obviously not a workable solution as one is probably on Mt. Hood right now.

[Kyle in NO]

I hate oil leaks!

[tn535i]

Why does it appear to be a gap between the stiffener and the trans bell housing? Can I see the flywheel ring gear? Is the stiffener for a different trans than that one or is the stiffener missing?

For the plug I think an aluminum or nylon piece like a mushroom held in by a bolt and washer would do the trick but if there is a gap between the stiffener and bell housing anyway a plug won't matter much to seal it up.

[tig]

Not sure what you mean by stiffener.

From what I understand you are supposed to be able to see the flywheel teeth; these things are never fully sealed up.

[ahab]

Those plugs I bought at ACE for the reference sensor holes in the bell-housing? Obviously not a workable solution as one is probably on Mt. Hood right now.

Stick with BMW parts and stay out of the hardware store. Try caliper guide pin dust covers. As for the oil pan leak (or hope of), I'd recommend Permatex Aviation Form-A-Gasket #3 for all paper gaskets. That orange crap is for 'murrican iron and gas station repair bays. I would have offered my unsolicited advice sooner but once we got over 3 pages I was out.

[Ron535i]

In other news: Those plugs I bought at ACE for the reference sensor holes in the bell-housing? Obviously not a workable solution as one is probably on Mt. Hood right now.

Try BMW part #21111225047 (realOEM, > Manual Transmission => Individual transmission parts #19, Blind Plug)

I can be a little anul too and I bought these when I did my m1.3 conversion. Very inexpensive.

[tn535i]

Not sure what you mean by stiffener.

From what I understand you are supposed to be able to see the flywheel teeth; these things are never fully sealed up.

Maybe not fully sealed but no big gaps. I'm not sure what I'm seeing in your picture now. There is usually a big aluminum piece that goes under the oil pan that completes the circle so to speak that the bell housing attaches to. 4 big bolts hold it to the block and the trans bell housing matches up to it without any gaps. There is even a soft plastic seal across the front to close the gap on the oil pan. My concern is that water could even splash up into the clutch area.

http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/E28/U ... 1256355_10

Now I'm realizing you must have the oil pan from a later M30 B35 but the trans that came from an early car. I guess they just don't match up the same way? I think you would need the B34 oil pan to use the stiffener. If it were me a might consider going to the early oil pan and stiffener with the early transmission. IDK.

[wkohler]

Hes got what is supposed to be on a 260/6 trans.

Do you still have the heat shield or plate or whatever that screwed to the transmission over the reference sensors?

[tig]

Hes got what is supposed to be on a 260/6 trans.

Do you still have the heat shield or plate or whatever that screwed to the transmission over the reference sensors?

yes.

[tig]

Tonight, after driving to/from work over two days I lifted the car and checked the oil leak situation. About the same amount of oil as previously seen, and it sure looks like it's coming from the oil pan seam at the right rear of the engine where it meets the bell housing (see previous pics).

It had occurred to me that the fact the B35 has an access hole in the oil pan covered with a plastic cover might be handy. I removed the cover and it looked dry in there.


I poked my gloved finger in there to see if there was any wetness inside. The glove came out clean no matter how I poked and prodded. I grabbed a large cotton detailing swab to see if it could pick up any oil moisture inside:


I really pushed the swab around in there, all the way to the right side and up where the rear seal cover would be. I pushed it down low, where oil would collect if it was leaking from the rear seal and pooling in the bell housing. A bit of dry grime (clutch dust?) but NO moisture.


This convinced me the oil leak is NOT coming from the rear main seal or the rear seal cover.

The only place it could be leaking, then, is from the oil pan gasket at that right-rear location. A real fix would involve removing the oil pan and re-doing the gasket. I'm not proud of the temporary fix I've attempted, but the same technique stopped the old timing cover leak on the old motor: I used Toyota FPIG gasket maker to externally cover the joint. I also tightened the cover bolts in that area a bit just to make sure.


This will stop the leak temporarily, forever, or not at all. Nothing to lose. Cross your fingers for me.

[tn535i]

I can't help but wonder if it's something related to my question about the stiffener ?? If the transmission and the oil pan were not originally paired together.. maybe the bell housing section integrated into the oil pan gets some stresses put into it with that particular transmission IF that tranmission was designed to be used with the stiffener. Might be causing the oil pan to pull away slightly breaking the nice seal you made while it was just oil pan on block? Again I admit no experience with the B35 oil pan but I think I see in some of the pics it has larger longer bolts at the rear like the separate stiffener would have and not just small ones. How does it mount across the back by the rear main seal? The old B34 style has several small 10mm hex head bolts that go under the stiffener so the oil pan is essentially independant of the bell housing circle formed by the stiffener.

[tig]

I can't help but wonder if it's something related to my question about the stiffener ?? If the transmission and the oil pan were not originally paired together.. maybe the bell housing section integrated into the oil pan gets some stresses put into it with that particular transmission IF that tranmission was designed to be used with the stiffener. Might be causing the oil pan to pull away slightly breaking the nice seal you made while it was just oil pan on block? Again I admit no experience with the B35 oil pan but I think I see in some of the pics it has larger longer bolts at the rear like the separate stiffener would have and not just small ones. How does it mount across the back by the rear main seal? The old B34 style has several small 10mm hex head bolts that go under the stiffener so the oil pan is essentially independant of the bell housing circle formed by the stiffener.

I'm not sure what you mean by the stiffener. None of the parts diagrams for either the 535 (B34) or the 735i (B35) have a part called "stiffiner".

It's still leaking. But just not from the spot where I sealed. I'm afraid it must be coming from inside the bell housing and my q-tip method just missed finding the spot.

In other news I got some parts from Blunt to take care of this little detail:

[demetk]

I'm not sure what you mean by the stiffener. None of the parts diagrams for either the 535 (B34) or the 735i (B35) have a part called "stiffiner".

It's still leaking. But just not from the spot where I sealed. I'm afraid it must be coming from inside the bell housing and my q-tip method just missed finding the spot.

TN is referring to #15 here. http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/E28/U ... ine_block/

So what are you going to do about the leak? This is certainly is one of the worst places for a leak.

[tig]

I'm not sure what you mean by the stiffener. None of the parts diagrams for either the 535 (B34) or the 735i (B35) have a part called "stiffiner".

It's still leaking. But just not from the spot where I sealed. I'm afraid it must be coming from inside the bell housing and my q-tip method just missed finding the spot.

TN is referring to #15 here. http://bmwfans.info/parts-catalog/E28/U ... ine_block/

The B35 oil pan does not use that part.

So what are you going to do about the leak? This is certainly is one of the worst places for a leak.

I'm going to have to take the exhaust, headers, and transmission off. I'm trying to find some other excuse to do that. Hopefully it is the rear main seal cover. That will be easy to fix. If it's the oil pan...

[dsmith]

Put on lift, take the trans panel off, clean it all up with brake cleaner, dry with air, start car and watch for leak.

[tig]

Put on lift, take the trans panel off, clean it all up with brake cleaner, dry with air, start car and watch for leak.

If you look at the prior posts in in this thread, you'll see that I could eat off the bottom of this engine. We know for certain that the oil leak is somewhere w/in the bell-housing. Also, the B35 does not have a "trans panel".

[dsmith]

If you look at the prior posts in in this thread, you'll see that I could eat off the bottom of this engine. We know for certain that the oil leak is somewhere w/in the bell-housing. Also, the B35 does not have a "trans panel".

Wow, I missed that in spades. Only a page of clarification on that before I typed... If it were me, I would do the oil pan gasket first. That orange stuff needs to go and it beats pulling the trans. I bet the rear of the pan is leaking.

[tig]

If you look at the prior posts in in this thread, you'll see that I could eat off the bottom of this engine. We know for certain that the oil leak is somewhere w/in the bell-housing. Also, the B35 does not have a "trans panel".

Wow, I missed that in spades. Only a page of clarification on that before I typed... If it were me, I would do the oil pan gasket first. That orange stuff needs to go and it beats pulling the trans. I bet the rear of the pan is leaking.

Can't pull the oil pan without pulling the trans on a B35.

[demetk]

If you look at the prior posts in in this thread, you'll see that I could eat off the bottom of this engine. We know for certain that the oil leak is somewhere w/in the bell-housing. Also, the B35 does not have a "trans panel".

Wow, I missed that in spades. Only a page of clarification on that before I typed... If it were me, I would do the oil pan gasket first. That orange stuff needs to go and it beats pulling the trans. I bet the rear of the pan is leaking.

Can't pull the oil pan without pulling the trans on a B35.

Maybe my belief system is all messed up but I believe you can.

[tig]

If you look at the prior posts in in this thread, you'll see that I could eat off the bottom of this engine. We know for certain that the oil leak is somewhere w/in the bell-housing. Also, the B35 does not have a "trans panel".

Wow, I missed that in spades. Only a page of clarification on that before I typed... If it were me, I would do the oil pan gasket first. That orange stuff needs to go and it beats pulling the trans. I bet the rear of the pan is leaking.

Can't pull the oil pan without pulling the trans on a B35.

Maybe my belief system is all messed up but I believe you can.

Actually, you can. I was mistaken. However, getting the oil pan off without lifting the engine will be next to impossible. If I'm going to fix this, I will almost certainly have to take the transmission out.

[Coldswede]

Too bad your not closer, You could just borrow my Harbor Freight engine support bar. It works great to change oil pan gaskets. I used it to put a new pan gasket in my '87 353iS. Or maybe you could just buy your own for about $90, last time I checked.

[tig]

I am afraid to admit it, because I was really hoping it was 'just me', but I have another problem.

The clutch actually works just fine. It engages and disengages completely and shifts are easy. However, after driving the 911 the other day, I realized that the two cars used to behave the same and are now opposite: The 911 clutch disengages at the very top, maybe 1". I can just barely press the clutch pedal and shift. On Vlad the clutch doesn't disengage until I'm almost to the floor. It engages when I've lifted maybe 1" off the floor.

I never really thought about how the clutch felt on Vlad before this, but after driving the 911 I realized the way it is now isn't right. So I searched. This thread, among others, taught me some stuff: http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?p=991259

The problem is one of several things:

• I still haven't bled the master completely. I'm pretty sure this isn't it, because it is completely consistent and if there were air in there the travel and feel would change with hard use (right?).
• The pivot pin is worn. Nope. Brand spanking new pivot pin. I know now about the stainless steel one from the 850, and if I would have known that before I would have bought one of those. But that can't be it in this case.
• Clutch pedal bracket. Nope. I installed one of those nifty re-enforcement kits right after i bought Vlad.
• The master is toast. Entirely possible. Now that I've re-read the POs service records I think I though it had been replaced at 164k...but that was the BRAKE MASTER. This means that at best, the clutch master was replaced at 91K. I shoulda-coulda on this one. I'll be replacing the clutch master sometime soon regardless.
• That flywheel. Remember how thin it is? Could this be it?

I don't have time tonight (or probably for a week) to try bleeding again.

What tests can I do to see if the master is failing and the cause?

If it is the flywheel, are there spacers I can put in there to make it offset more?

[ahab]

I still haven't bled the master completely.

Did you mean it to sound like that? You need to bleed the system completely for it to work properly. Regardless of whether or not the air is moving around, it will compress when you press the pedal and you will get insufficient extension of the slave piston. Also, when my slave failed I got the same situation, the clutch would grab upon any pedal travel because the pressure was leaking by the failed seal. It was consistent however and i drove it like that for two plus weeks. A bad master or air in the system will translate to the same problem, insufficient slave cylinder extension, which is the root of the problem. A few thousandths on the flywheel should not even be noticeable.

[tig]

I still haven't bled the master completely.

Did you mean it to sound like that? You need to bleed the system completely for it to work properly. Regardless of whether or not the air is moving around, it will compress when you press the pedal and you will get insufficient extension of the slave piston. Also, when my slave failed I got the same situation, the clutch would grab upon any pedal travel because the pressure was leaking by the failed seal. It was consistent however and i drove it like that for two plus weeks. A bad master or air in the system will translate to the same problem, insufficient slave cylinder extension, which is the root of the problem. A few thousandths on the flywheel should not even be noticeable.

I meant "the problem might be that when I bled the master, I didn't do a good enough job".

I'm not seeing any evidence of brake fluid leaking a the clutch master. My understanding is that if the master were leaking the fluid would be quite obvious.

[tig]

Odd...

In the past few days of driving, I really paid attention to the feel & travel of the clutch. It now seems perfect. For now I'm just going to leave it alone.

Pulled the plugs today to make sure they look ok after about 1200 miles. I didn't know you were supposed to gap new plugs; I assumed they came gapped when new. So the 2nd reason for pulling them was to correctly gap them (I went with what Bentley said: 0.027 in).

I have very little experience judging plugs, but from all the pictures I've seen online (and in Bentley's) they sure look fine to me.


While I had the air cleaner assembly off to access the plugs I noticed that there's a little bit of muck around injectors #1 & #2. The rest are clean.


Is this a normal amount of seepage or should I pull them and re-do the o-rings (they are brand new o-rings)?

Next: Chris Kohler will appreciate this. It will need some modifications to fit, but will make a fun project, and if it works will be awesome.

[unt0uchable]

Next: Chris Kohler will appreciate this. It will need some modifications to fit, but will make a fun project, and if it works will be awesome.

What might that be from? I've never seem an intake setup like that, though I've only owned a couple m30's....