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Posted: Nov 20, 2009 3:14 PM
by cvillebimmer
I know you are right about the AFRs and I know I'm anal about not wanting that light to come on. It's a personal struggle. I'm running m1.3 if it makes a difference in your diagnosis.
I used to get the occasional 1222 (rich or lean condition for more than 10 seconds) which is to be expected. I never received 1221 which makes me a little suspicious.
I'm also going to borrow an unmolested AMF and plug that in just to see.
Todd, if you are reading, do you always have to adjust the AFM when going from stock 19lbers to 24lbers?
Posted: Nov 20, 2009 3:27 PM
by cvillebimmer
Another hypothesis... I've teed a coolant line from the back of the cylinder head into the return line from the heater core, which connects to the cylinder head side of the t-stat. The modification has definitely decreased the performance of the heater, maybe it's also tripping out the ecu coolant temp sensor? It's been suggested that the ecu coolant temp sensor can also throw the 1221 code by some folks on bimmerboard. I would suspect because the car is stuck in warm up mode.
The temp gauge on the dash is right where it should be though. It stays within a needle's width of 12 o'clock. Does that complete negate my hypothesis?
Posted: Nov 20, 2009 3:58 PM
by turbodan
The CTS wont be affected by the heater hoses.
The AFM definitely has to be adjusted after a 25% increase in injector size. More spring tension will get you in the ball park, but the DME is still going to get pissed off. Whats most important is AFR under boost. Without having the car remapped with a custom tune or installing standalone injection I dont think its possible to get it to stay anywhere near 14.7:1.
Posted: Nov 20, 2009 5:23 PM
by cvillebimmer
Hopefully I'm being paranoid, but I still think something is off. I logged a bit on the way home today, but first some more observations.
- After sitting at a traffic light idling at 12:1 for a couple minutes, the car stumbled very badly when I hit the gas in neutral. Cleared up once I put it in gear and began to move and the AFR went back up to 14.x.
- WOT AFRs are too high, partial throttle is okay.
- Very noticeable pop (I assume backfire) from the tail pipe when easing into the gas after coasting on the highway. Not always, just sometimes.
You can see here how the AFR jumps into the 13s if you hit WOT. Partial throttle boost is okay.
Here's a better comparison of WOT vs. Partial throttle:
3rd gear cruise, then idle.
Warm Idle. What bugs me about this is that the first time around the car had no problem holding 14.7 at idle even with a 2 mostly dead cylinders.
Thanks for all the help!
Posted: Nov 20, 2009 5:44 PM
by turbodan
What happens when you disconnect the oxygen sensor altogether? Does it act differently?
Posted: Nov 20, 2009 5:45 PM
by T_C_D
This is going to be a hard pill to swallow butto get the type of ecu performance that you demand is not going to hppen with Motronic 1.3. Sell the Ranger and buy a MS.
Todd
Posted: Nov 20, 2009 7:35 PM
by mooseheadm5
Would a miller MAF conversion help if he didn't want to mess with MS?
Posted: Nov 21, 2009 11:04 AM
by turbodan
It would if he had a full on custom tune done.
Posted: Nov 21, 2009 12:13 PM
by cvillebimmer
Miller route is definitely a possibility. However, I humbly disagree that it's not possible to get a decent tune out of my M1.3 setup so I'm going to give it the old college try before giving up on it. I disagree only because with my old block that had two half dead cylinders, my car held proper AFRs at idle, cruise and in boost. The only ecu code I'd get was an intermittent 1222 (rich/lean for more than 10 seconds). I never once got 1221, which is the only code I'm storing now. Something just isn't adding up.
In this order, I’m going work backwards to see if I can get normal AFRs in N/A conditions.
- Go back to the stock ecu chip
- Swap in a known good, unmolested AFM
- Remove the O2 clamp
- Swap the ecu CTS
- Close the cooling line at the back of the head.
Thanks for the suggestions and helping me to think things through, it's very helpful. I'll post back with my results, hopefully tomorrow.
Posted: Nov 21, 2009 1:43 PM
by T_C_D
cvillebimmer wrote:
In this order, I’m going work backwards to see if I can get normal AFRs in N/A conditions.
- Go back to the stock ecu chip - Don't - TCD chip has the same fuel map as stock.- Swap in a known good, unmolested AFM
- Remove the O2 clamp - Don't - Engine will lean out at WOT and kill your brand new engine.
- Swap the ecu CTS
- Close the cooling line at the back of the head.
Thanks for the suggestions and helping me to think things through, it's very helpful. I'll post back with my results, hopefully tomorrow.
Posted: Nov 21, 2009 2:00 PM
by Jeremy
out of range or not present
Seems to me that you'd get that error code a lot when running an O2 clamp. What does your O2 clamp do? Does it interrupt the signal line only, or does it also disrupt power to the O2 sensor heater? The only person I personally know that used M1.3 with his turbo once mentioned to me that he needed to reset his ECU at least once a week to reset the fuel trims, clear the error codes, and keep the car running properly.
Jeremy
Posted: Nov 21, 2009 2:31 PM
by turbodan
Jeremy wrote:out of range or not present
Seems to me that you'd get that error code a lot when running an O2 clamp. What does your O2 clamp do? Does it interrupt the signal line only, or does it also disrupt power to the O2 sensor heater? The only person I personally know that used M1.3 with his turbo once mentioned to me that he needed to reset his ECU at least once a week to reset the fuel trims, clear the error codes, and keep the car running properly.
Jeremy
I never had any problems with M1.3. I ran it open loop, and it did what it did consistently and reliably.
Posted: Nov 23, 2009 2:43 AM
by 90e34535i
Switch to MS, you'll be happy you did. Just do a lot of reading its not that hard.
Posted: Nov 23, 2009 10:08 AM
by cvillebimmer
Quick update... Warm idle AFR is now bouncing around 14.7.
All I've done is to swap in an unmolested AFM and my spare ecu with oem chip. I know that testing with two variable is a no-no, but I was on my way to work, time was of the essence, and I wanted to make an impact. I haven't seen boost and I'll put the TCD chip back in when I go home for lunch.
Immediately when I started the car, the AFR climbed up over 16:1. This is with the cog wheel at the stock position and stock (3 turns clockwise from closed) bypass valve. I had to close the air bypass all the way to get the AFR down closer to 15.1. By the time I got to work and the engine warm. The idle was right about where it should be.
I still have the 1221 code and a permanent CEL and I still believe something is causing it that can be addressed. Thanks again for all the input. I'm still confident the board's help I can get M1.3 running reasonably well. If not, I guess I'll be heading down the MS road.
Posted: Nov 23, 2009 1:26 PM
by cvillebimmer
TCD chip is back in and no CEL or stored codes yet. Maybe I simply foo-barred my old AFM one of the million times I messed with it the first time around. The 6 miles back to work isn't far enough to claim success, but fingers are crossed.
Anyone have an AFM to sell? I need to return the one I'm borrowing.
Posted: Nov 24, 2009 10:07 AM
by cvillebimmer
1221 eventually came back with the "new" AFM, but the good news is that I think I've found the guilty party.
Before leaving for work today, I reconfirmed continuity in the O2 sensor -> ECU wiring and then removed the O2 clamp. On my way to work, AFRs were steadier than they ever have been. I did get one brief flash from the CEL and this time it's 1222 (rich/lean condition). I need a little more time to be sure, but I the clamp shit the bed and has been sending the ECU whack signal causing the 1221 (sensor not present) code.
I did have one small hiccup as I got of the interstate and rolled into the parking lot. The AFR briefly dropped to 10:1 briefly and it felt like one of the cylinders stopped firing. Once that cleared up, the AFR went right back to 14.7 and held steady. This has happened now and again throughout my "testing". I initially gapped my plugs at .030 and will take them out this weekend to clean and tighten the gap down to .028.
Thanks for the continued help and for playing along.
Once I get M1.3 running right, then I'll start thinking about MS.
Posted: Nov 24, 2009 1:36 PM
by mooseheadm5
Once you get that all taken care of, call Adrian to set up an inspection.
Posted: Nov 25, 2009 7:47 AM
by cvillebimmer
Thanks, Paul.
Once I have a new O2 clamp, I should be ready to bring it into the shop. I've driven 50+ miles now without the CEL light coming on and no hiccups or backfires. Without pulling the plugs, I'd bet they were starting to get fouled up from the rich running conditions and now that it's running properly they've cleaned up a bit.
I did a couple WOT pulls and the AFR is right where it should be and it feels good!
Posted: Nov 27, 2009 6:37 PM
by bmw4aaron
Wow reading this thread made my remember why I did my M60 swap. More or less instant gratification after the swap was complete. Only time the CEL came on in that car was when my intake manifold gaskets and oil plate started leaking.
Keep up the good work man. You need to bring that thing by sometime.
Posted: Nov 28, 2009 7:56 AM
by FirstFives Dictator
cvillebimmer wrote:TCD chip is back in and no CEL or stored codes yet. Maybe I simply foo-barred my old AFM one of the million times I messed with it the first time around. The 6 miles back to work isn't far enough to claim success, but fingers are crossed.
Anyone have an AFM to sell? I need to return the one I'm borrowing.
I might have one off E32. I'll check this weekend.
Edit: should have read the rest of the thread. Sounds like you have it nailed.
Posted: Nov 28, 2009 10:16 AM
by cvillebimmer
Thanks, Peter. Don't worry about the AFM though, there's nothing wrong with it. I put the clamp on the digital volt meter and the resistance was very inconsistent in vacuum conditions after coming out of boost. It read anywhere from 25-190 ohms. I guess it went south for the winter. It's no wonder the ecu could never adapt properly.
Todd is sending me another clamp and should be back in business. When I get bored of 9psi, let's talk about an MS system tuned for 12psi.
Posted: Nov 28, 2009 10:20 AM
by cvillebimmer
bmw4aaron wrote:Wow reading this thread made my remember why I did my M60 swap. More or less instant gratification after the swap was complete. Only time the CEL came on in that car was when my intake manifold gaskets and oil plate started leaking.
Keep up the good work man. You need to bring that thing by sometime.
It's been rather epic. All good though, I'm no worse for the wear. If you recall, I needed your help to pull the head. That's a walk in the park now. Thanks! Once it's back to DD status, I'll drop by to show off.
Posted: Dec 01, 2009 4:16 PM
by cvillebimmer
Posted: Dec 01, 2009 5:28 PM
by George
Congrats
Now go drive the crap out of it!
Posted: Dec 01, 2009 5:31 PM
by Scottinva
Videos!
Posted: Dec 02, 2009 12:13 AM
by Brad D.
Great work, I am glad you are finally able to enjoy all the hard work and money you have put into the car.
Posted: Dec 02, 2009 1:40 AM
by wkohler
What a result! Glad you got through those niggling bits!
Posted: Dec 06, 2009 2:53 PM
by gkrea1
Just chiming in to add my congratulations. A hot rod 735 -- fantastic!
Posted: Dec 07, 2009 9:49 AM
by cvillebimmer
Thanks guys! I must confess, I lay my first patch of rubber on the road on Friday. Don't tell Paul Burke I bounced off the rev limiter in 1st.
FWIW, I've been babying the car for the first 500 miles and just changed the oil. The oil that came out looked as clean as the oil I put back in.
Posted: Dec 07, 2009 12:03 PM
by Brad D.
