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Reflections of a GOP Operative Who Left the Cult

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 2:18 AM
by GKLCPA
In a recent sting here, there was a poster who lamented about what had happened to his republican party. Today, I had occasion to reflect back on that post as I ran across this article written a few months back around the time to the debt ceiling crisis as the republicans held the nation hostage. The author is Mike Lofgren, a former republican congressional staffer who has recently written a book critiquing both parties by holding the republican party primarily responsible for the gridlock and dysfunction in DC. I've linked the entire article which is excellent and should really be read in its entirety, but have excerpted below his basic conclusions. I should add that I disagree with his contention that the GOP alone is militaristic as I believe the Dems operate in much the same manner and Obama is pursuing the same interventionist foreign policy that Bush followed, but with more vigor---and neither the republicans nor the anti-war left is calling him on it. Otherwise, Lofgren is spot on in his analysis :

Thus far, I have concentrated on Republican tactics, rather than Republican beliefs, but the tactics themselves are important indicators of an absolutist, authoritarian mindset that is increasingly hostile to the democratic values of reason, compromise and conciliation. Rather, this mindset seeks polarizing division (Karl Rove has been very explicit that this is his principal campaign strategy), conflict and the crushing of opposition.

As for what they really believe, the Republican Party of 2011 believes in three principal tenets I have laid out below. The rest of their platform one may safely dismiss as window dressing:

1. The GOP cares solely and exclusively about its rich contributors. The party has built a whole catechism on the protection and further enrichment of America's plutocracy. Their caterwauling about deficit and debt is so much eyewash to con the public. Whatever else President Obama has accomplished (and many of his purported accomplishments are highly suspect), his $4-trillion deficit reduction package did perform the useful service of smoking out Republican hypocrisy. The GOP refused, because it could not abide so much as a one-tenth of one percent increase on the tax rates of the Walton family or the Koch brothers, much less a repeal of the carried interest rule that permits billionaire hedge fund managers to pay income tax at a lower effective rate than cops or nurses. Republicans finally settled on a deal that had far less deficit reduction - and even less spending reduction! - than Obama's offer, because of their iron resolution to protect at all costs our society's overclass.

Republicans have attempted to camouflage their amorous solicitude for billionaires with a fog of misleading rhetoric. John Boehner is fond of saying, "we won't raise anyone's taxes," as if the take-home pay of an Olive Garden waitress were inextricably bound up with whether Warren Buffett pays his capital gains as ordinary income or at a lower rate. Another chestnut is that millionaires and billionaires are "job creators." US corporations have just had their most profitable quarters in history; Apple, for one, is sitting on $76 billion in cash, more than the GDP of most countries. So, where are the jobs?

Another smokescreen is the "small business" meme, since standing up for Mom's and Pop's corner store is politically more attractive than to be seen shilling for a megacorporation. Raising taxes on the wealthy will kill small business' ability to hire; that is the GOP dirge every time Bernie Sanders or some Democrat offers an amendment to increase taxes on incomes above $1 million. But the number of small businesses that have a net annual income over a million dollars is de minimis, if not by definition impossible (as they would no longer be small businesses). And as data from the Center for Economic and Policy Research have shown, small businesses account for only 7.2 percent of total US employment, a significantly smaller share of total employment than in most Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) countries.

Likewise, Republicans have assiduously spread the myth that Americans are conspicuously overtaxed. But compared to other OECD countries, the effective rates of US taxation are among the lowest. In particular, they point to the top corporate income rate of 35 percent as being confiscatory Bolshevism. But again, the effective rate is much lower. Did GE pay 35 percent on 2010 profits of $14 billion? No, it paid zero.

When pressed, Republicans make up misleading statistics to "prove" that the America's fiscal burden is being borne by the rich and the rest of us are just freeloaders who don't appreciate that fact. "Half of Americans don't pay taxes" is a perennial meme. But what they leave out is that that statement refers to federal income taxes. There are millions of people who don't pay income taxes, but do contribute payroll taxes - among the most regressive forms of taxation. But according to GOP fiscal theology, payroll taxes don't count. Somehow, they have convinced themselves that since payroll taxes go into trust funds, they're not real taxes. Likewise, state and local sales taxes apparently don't count, although their effect on a poor person buying necessities like foodstuffs is far more regressive than on a millionaire.

All of these half truths and outright lies have seeped into popular culture via the corporate-owned business press. Just listen to CNBC for a few hours and you will hear most of them in one form or another. More important politically, Republicans' myths about taxation have been internalized by millions of economically downscale "values voters," who may have been attracted to the GOP for other reasons (which I will explain later), but who now accept this misinformation as dogma.

And when misinformation isn't enough to sustain popular support for the GOP's agenda, concealment is needed. One fairly innocuous provision in the Dodd-Frank financial reform bill requires public companies to make a more transparent disclosure of CEO compensation, including bonuses. Note that it would not limit the compensation, only require full disclosure. Republicans are hell-bent on repealing this provision. Of course; it would not serve Wall Street interests if the public took an unhealthy interest in the disparity of their own incomes as against that of a bank CEO. As Spencer Bachus, the Republican chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, says, "In Washington, the view is that the banks are to be regulated and my view is that Washington and the regulators are there to serve the banks."

2. They worship at the altar of Mars. While the me-too Democrats have set a horrible example of keeping up with the Joneses with respect to waging wars, they can never match GOP stalwarts such as John McCain or Lindsey Graham in their sheer, libidinous enthusiasm for invading other countries. McCain wanted to mix it up with Russia - a nuclear-armed state - during the latter's conflict with Georgia in 2008 (remember? - "we are all Georgians now," a slogan that did not, fortunately, catch on), while Graham has been persistently agitating for attacks on Iran and intervention in Syria. And these are not fringe elements of the party; they are the leading "defense experts," who always get tapped for the Sunday talk shows. About a month before Republicans began holding a gun to the head of the credit markets to get trillions of dollars of cuts, these same Republicans passed a defense appropriations bill that increased spending by $17 billion over the prior year's defense appropriation. To borrow Chris Hedges' formulation, war is the force that gives meaning to their lives.

A cynic might conclude that this militaristic enthusiasm is no more complicated than the fact that Pentagon contractors spread a lot of bribery money around Capitol Hill. That is true, but there is more to it than that. It is not necessarily even the fact that members of Congress feel they are protecting constituents' jobs. The wildly uneven concentration of defense contracts and military bases nationally means that some areas, like Washington, DC, and San Diego, are heavily dependent on Department of Defense (DOD) spending. But there are many more areas of the country whose net balance is negative: the citizenry pays more in taxes to support the Pentagon than it receives back in local contracts.

And the economic justification for Pentagon spending is even more fallacious when one considers that the $700 billion annual DOD budget creates comparatively few jobs. The days of Rosie the Riveter are long gone; most weapons projects now require very little touch labor. Instead, a disproportionate share is siphoned off into high-cost research and development (from which the civilian economy benefits little); exorbitant management expenditures, overhead and out-and-out padding; and, of course, the money that flows back into the coffers of political campaigns. A million dollars appropriated for highway construction would create two to three times as many jobs as a million dollars appropriated for Pentagon weapons procurement, so the jobs argument is ultimately specious.

Take away the cash nexus and there still remains a psychological predisposition toward war and militarism on the part of the GOP. This undoubtedly arises from a neurotic need to demonstrate toughness and dovetails perfectly with the belligerent tough-guy pose one constantly hears on right-wing talk radio. Militarism springs from the same psychological deficit that requires an endless series of enemies, both foreign and domestic.

The results of the last decade of unbridled militarism and the Democrats' cowardly refusal to reverse it[4], have been disastrous both strategically and fiscally. It has made the United States less prosperous, less secure and less free. Unfortunately, the militarism and the promiscuous intervention it gives rise to are only likely to abate when the Treasury is exhausted, just as it happened to the Dutch Republic and the British Empire.

3. Give me that old time religion. Pandering to fundamentalism is a full-time vocation in the GOP. Beginning in the 1970s, religious cranks ceased simply to be a minor public nuisance in this country and grew into the major element of the Republican rank and file. Pat Robertson's strong showing in the 1988 Iowa Caucus signaled the gradual merger of politics and religion in the party. The results are all around us: if the American people poll more like Iranians or Nigerians than Europeans or Canadians on questions of evolution versus creationism, scriptural inerrancy, the existence of angels and demons, and so forth, that result is due to the rise of the religious right, its insertion into the public sphere by the Republican Party and the consequent normalizing of formerly reactionary or quaint beliefs. Also around us is a prevailing anti-intellectualism and hostility to science; it is this group that defines "low-information voter" - or, perhaps, "misinformation voter."
The Constitution to the contrary notwithstanding, there is now a de facto religious test for the presidency: major candidates are encouraged (or coerced) to "share their feelings" about their "faith" in a revelatory speech; or, some televangelist like Rick Warren dragoons the candidates (as he did with Obama and McCain in 2008) to debate the finer points of Christology, with Warren himself, of course, as the arbiter. Politicized religion is also the sheet anchor of the culture wars. But how did the whole toxic stew of GOP beliefs - economic royalism, militarism and culture wars cum fundamentalism - come completely to displace an erstwhile civilized Eisenhower Republicanism?

It is my view that the rise of politicized religious fundamentalism (which is a subset of the decline of rational problem solving in America) may have been the key ingredient of the takeover of the Republican Party. For politicized religion provides a substrate of beliefs that rationalizes - at least in the minds of followers - all three of the GOP's main tenets.
Televangelists have long espoused the health-and-wealth/name-it-and-claim it gospel. If you are wealthy, it is a sign of God's favor. If not, too bad! But don't forget to tithe in any case. This rationale may explain why some economically downscale whites defend the prerogatives of billionaires.
The GOP's fascination with war is also connected with the fundamentalist mindset. The Old Testament abounds in tales of slaughter - God ordering the killing of the Midianite male infants and enslavement of the balance of the population, the divinely-inspired genocide of the Canaanites, the slaying of various miscreants with the jawbone of an ass - and since American religious fundamentalist seem to prefer the Old Testament to the New (particularly that portion of the New Testament known as the Sermon on the Mount), it is but a short step to approving war as a divinely inspired mission. This sort of thinking has led, inexorably, to such phenomena as Jerry Falwell once writing that God is Pro-War.
It is the apocalyptic frame of reference of fundamentalists, their belief in an imminent Armageddon, that psychologically conditions them to steer this country into conflict, not only on foreign fields (some evangelicals thought Saddam was the Antichrist and therefore a suitable target for cruise missiles), but also in the realm of domestic political controversy. It is hardly surprising that the most adamant proponent of the view that there was no debt ceiling problem was Michele Bachmann, the darling of the fundamentalist right. What does it matter, anyway, if the country defaults? - we shall presently abide in the bosom of the Lord.
Some liberal writers have opined that the different socio-economic perspectives separating the "business" wing of the GOP and the religious right make it an unstable coalition that could crack. I am not so sure. There is no fundamental disagreement on which direction the two factions want to take the country, merely how far in that direction they want to take it. The plutocrats would drag us back to the Gilded Age, the theocrats to the Salem witch trials. In any case, those consummate plutocrats, the Koch brothers, are pumping large sums of money into Michele Bachman's presidential campaign, so one ought not make too much of a potential plutocrat-theocrat split.
Thus, the modern GOP; it hardly seems conceivable that a Republican could have written the following:
"Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. Among them are H. L. Hunt (you possibly know his background), a few other Texas oil millionaires and an occasional politician or business man from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid." (That was President Eisenhower, writing to his brother Edgar in 1954.)
It is this broad and ever-widening gulf between the traditional Republicanism of an Eisenhower and the quasi-totalitarian cult of a Michele Bachmann that impelled my departure from Capitol Hill. It is not in my pragmatic nature to make a heroic gesture of self-immolation, or to make lurid revelations of personal martyrdom in the manner of David Brock. And I will leave a more detailed dissection of failed Republican economic policies to my fellow apostate Bruce Bartlett.

I left because I was appalled at the headlong rush of Republicans, like Gadarene swine, to embrace policies that are deeply damaging to this country's future; and contemptuous of the feckless, craven incompetence of Democrats in their half-hearted attempts to stop them. And, in truth, I left as an act of rational self-interest. Having gutted private-sector pensions and health benefits as a result of their embrace of outsourcing, union busting and "shareholder value," the GOP now thinks it is only fair that public-sector workers give up their pensions and benefits, too. Hence the intensification of the GOP's decades-long campaign of scorn against government workers. Under the circumstances, it is simply safer to be a current retiree rather than a prospective one.

If you think Paul Ryan and his Ayn Rand-worshipping colleagues aren't after your Social Security and Medicare, I am here to disabuse you of your naiveté.[5] They will move heaven and earth to force through tax cuts that will so starve the government of revenue that they will be "forced" to make "hard choices" - and that doesn't mean repealing those very same tax cuts, it means cutting the benefits for which you worked.

During the week that this piece was written, the debt ceiling fiasco reached its conclusion. The economy was already weak, but the GOP's disgraceful game of chicken roiled the markets even further. Foreigners could hardly believe it: Americans' own crazy political actions were destabilizing the safe-haven status of the dollar. Accordingly, during that same week, over one trillion dollars worth of assets evaporated on financial markets. Russia and China have stepped up their advocating that the dollar be replaced as the global reserve currency - a move as consequential and disastrous for US interests as any that can be imagined.

If Republicans have perfected a new form of politics that is successful electorally at the same time that it unleashes major policy disasters, it means twilight both for the democratic process and America's status as the world's leading power.


http://truth-out.org/index.php?option=c ... t-the-cult

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 2:28 AM
by wkohler
Take your propaganda elsewhere. We've got enough issues discussing actual issues, we don't need this inflammatory crap here.

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 2:38 AM
by GKLCPA
wkohler wrote:Take your propaganda elsewhere. We've got enough issues discussing actual issues, we don't need this inflammatory crap here.
Sorry you feel that way, however, there's no intent to inflame. As to propaganda, this is what was been written by a republican. As far as I'm aware, he's not switched parties.

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 8:57 AM
by davintosh
Wow. An article by a republican finding fault with the Republican Party. Pardon my yawn.

As for your intent in posting this... You must be new here. Or perhaps you don't pay attention. :roll:

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 9:58 AM
by oldskool
These: :popcorn:
:confused:
:nuts:
:dead:
:moon:
:bs:
:brick:
:sweaty, sore infested ball sack:

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 10:40 AM
by a
heh heh , I like Ike ! He is practically just to the right of Ho Chi Min in the current spectrum. Ike was so popular, that he could have run on any ticket and won.. He was the ultimate choice . His old job made running the USA, something he squeezed in between rounds of golf. His choice of Nixon as his Joe Biden was a masterful stroke.

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 11:07 AM
by ldsbeaker
Jeez. I never do this, but dang.

tl;dr

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 11:18 AM
by RonW
Strange that someone who spent 28 years as a Republican staffer would have such views. He's in a position to know, I guess (unless his job as a staffer was limited to making photocopies), but his sentiments are so extreme that I have a hard time believing them. I don't know what it would take to convince me that what he says is true. After all, they picked Romney, not Bachmann or Santorum.

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 11:38 AM
by stuartinmn
The last month or so all you've done is put up political posts...why don't you give it a rest. All they do is start arguments, there are plenty of other places for that besides this forum.

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 11:56 AM
by Brad D.
stuartinmn wrote:The last month or so all you've done is put up political posts...why don't you give it a rest. All they do is start arguments, there are plenty of other places for that besides this forum.
I think some people like starting shitstorms. It's pretty obvious who these people are as of late.

Image

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 2:22 PM
by GKLCPA
Brad D. wrote:
stuartinmn wrote:The last month or so all you've done is put up political posts...why don't you give it a rest. All they do is start arguments, there are plenty of other places for that besides this forum.
I think some people like starting shitstorms. It's pretty obvious who these people are as of late.

Image
Actually, that's not my motivation and I've certainly not been calling names or engaged anyone in a fight nor do I find it "entertaining" when other folks do so. From what I can see, there are a number of intelligent people here on both sides of the divide that often make some very good points. So, yes sometimes I post things that are provocative, as others may do from time to time, but the purpose is not to create some "shitstorm". That's on those who want to engage that way and that's not my thing.

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 2:56 PM
by GKLCPA
RonW wrote:Strange that someone who spent 28 years as a Republican staffer would have such views. He's in a position to know, I guess (unless his job as a staffer was limited to making photocopies), but his sentiments are so extreme that I have a hard time believing them. I don't know what it would take to convince me that what he says is true. After all, they picked Romney, not Bachmann or Santorum.
In a way, he might have been better off creating a faction or group within the republican party to debate its future direction and yes, Romney the moderate was picked rather that the T-party types in an attempt to get to the middle for the independents, but at the same time moderates like Lugar or anyone else who'd cooperate across the aisle have been run out on the rail.

During all of the stuff that occurred in 2010 with the T-Party and etc., the thing I wondered was where were the moderate types like a Brent Scowcroft, Colin Powell or even Bush#1 for that matter. Why were they silent? Did they agree with the far right takeover or not?

I think this guy was simply someone who doesn't agree with the direction of the republican party and I think there are others. Some will jump ship, some will stay and be silent and some will just go and say the hell with it.

The real problem with the party's position is the position it put the left in IMO. For example, for all the grief that Bush II got over the Patriot Act and the Iraq War, there's been total silence on Obama's signing of the National Defense Authorization Act which is just as intrusive on civil liberties. Similarly, there's been total silence on his expansive use of drones. Basically, he's accomplished what Bush II could never do without stiff opposition from the left. Because of the far right's attacks, the left has been silenced IMO for fear that to break ranks with Obama is to weaken him, so he's really not held accountable for these things by neither the left or the far right for that matter. In my mind, the true casualty for democracy is the lack of an opposition party that truly opposes on substantive and relevant issues and no, being obdurate doesn't count.

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 3:15 PM
by dolomiti
I've heard that my decision as to whether I buy Alpina or Hartge wheels next spring will turn on whether Obama or Romney wins. Oh wait, I have no idea what I am talking about.

also this, times a million
GKLCPA wrote: The real problem with the party's position is the position it put the left in IMO. For example, for all the grief that Bush II got over the Patriot Act and the Iraq War, there's been total silence on Obama's signing of the National Defense Authorization Act which is just as intrusive on civil liberties. Similarly, there's been total silence on his expansive use of drones. Basically, he's accomplished what Bush II could never do without stiff opposition from the left. Because of the far right's attacks, the left has been silenced IMO for fear that to break ranks with Obama is to weaken him, so he's really not held accountable for these things by neither the left or the far right for that matter. In my mind, the true casualty for democracy is the lack of an opposition party that truly opposes on substantive and relevant issues and no, being obdurate doesn't count.

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 3:46 PM
by Rich Euro M5
GKLCPA wrote:[ but at the same time moderates like Lugar or anyone else who'd cooperate across the aisle have been run out on the rail.
Dick Lugar deserved losing his Senate seat. He was a key proponent of the Law of the Sea Treaty.

I for one will not support any politician, regardless of party, who is in support of subordinating U.S. sovereignty, plus seven-tenths of the world's surface area, to control by a U.N bureaucracy.

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 4:06 PM
by davintosh
GKLCPA wrote:In a way, he might have been better off creating a faction or group within the republican party to debate its future direction and yes, Romney the moderate was picked rather that the T-party types in an attempt to get to the middle for the independents, but at the same time moderates like Lugar or anyone else who'd cooperate across the aisle have been run out on the rail.

During all of the stuff that occurred in 2010 with the T-Party and etc., the thing I wondered was where were the moderate types like a Brent Scowcroft, Colin Powell or even Bush#1 for that matter. Why were they silent? Did they agree with the far right takeover or not?

I think this guy was simply someone who doesn't agree with the direction of the republican party and I think there are others. Some will jump ship, some will stay and be silent and some will just go and say the hell with it.
The mistake made by many (including you, and I'm guessing the author of the article, although I haven't read the whole thing) is that the GOP is run by people with a "far right" ideology; it isn't, and that's part of the problem. The leadership of the party is more politically moderate, hence the candidates like Bob Dole, George W. Bush, John McCain, & Mitt Romney ending up as the candidates for President. Notice also the collective "meh" from most conservative voters in the last ~20 years... the ideology of those candidates doesn't mesh with that of the average Republican Party member. I'd have to say that in the last several election cycles most all the votes for the Republican candidates have been like mine; more a vote against the Democrat opponent than for the GOP candidate.

I can guarantee you that the party leadership isn't happy about the presence of the "Tea Party" in the ranks, but really can't do much about it because without them the GOP would cease to exist. And the Tea Party types are basically pushed toward the GOP because of the extreme positions taken by the DNC on issues that matter to many. Barack Obama has helped to push many more toward the GOP as well. The Tea Party types don't go third-party because of the memory of the whole Ross Perot debacle; having a right-wing third party is the easiest way to guarantee a win for a Democrat candidate. So they (we) stay with the GOP, just to keep the Democrats from a win.

But the GOP leadership continues to want to move to the middle, and if they continue, the Tea Party types will eventually make a break with the GOP and hope to break the dominance of the GOP & DNC in politics. All that's needed is the right candidate, a true conservative, that will draw the support of enough like-minded voters, and the right opponents that will push enough voters away from them and toward the conservative. No telling when that will happen, but given the way the GOP has behaved in recent years I'd bet money it'll happen in my lifetime.
GKLCPA wrote:The real problem with the party's position is the position it put the left in IMO. For example, for all the grief that Bush II got over the Patriot Act and the Iraq War, there's been total silence on Obama's signing of the National Defense Authorization Act which is just as intrusive on civil liberties. Similarly, there's been total silence on his expansive use of drones. Basically, he's accomplished what Bush II could never do without stiff opposition from the left. Because of the far right's attacks, the left has been silenced IMO for fear that to break ranks with Obama is to weaken him, so he's really not held accountable for these things by neither the left or the far right for that matter. In my mind, the true casualty for democracy is the lack of an opposition party that truly opposes on substantive and relevant issues and no, being obdurate doesn't count.
Well said. Obama has seen almost no criticism in the last four years because his supporters -- including many who "report" the news -- know he is already weak, so they shield him from any really tough questions about his history, his ideology, and his record. Last week's Univision interview really knocked Obama back on his heels; he was probably expecting to be among friends there, given the level of support the DNC has historically enjoyed (who knows why...), and was totally unprepared for what he got. It's been hilarious to read some of the reports that have come out in the wake of that interview; mainstream media types are just flabbergasted that he was hit with hardball questions like that, and that his answers were so pathetic. It's about time people started calling him to account. He's been getting a free pass for way too long.

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 4:13 PM
by OcCoupe
Very well put Dave.

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 4:34 PM
by Rich Euro M5
OcCoupe wrote:Very well put Dave.
X2

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 9:14 PM
by GKLCPA
davintosh wrote: The mistake made by many (including you, and I'm guessing the author of the article, although I haven't read the whole thing) is that the GOP is run by people with a "far right" ideology; it isn't, and that's part of the problem. The leadership of the party is more politically moderate, hence the candidates like Bob Dole, George W. Bush, John McCain, & Mitt Romney ending up as the candidates for President. Notice also the collective "meh" from most conservative voters in the last ~20 years... the ideology of those candidates doesn't mesh with that of the average Republican Party member. I'd have to say that in the last several election cycles most all the votes for the Republican candidates have been like mine; more a vote against the Democrat opponent than for the GOP candidate.
I think you make a fair point here which is also a tacit admission about the nature of the electorate. If it is indeed true that the leadership is far more moderate that the "marketing", then the question you must ask is why? I think the answer is that given the electorate, they wouldn't be able to win otherwise. Being "moderate" has much broader appeal than being far right wing--except in an off year election where turnout is not as heavy. This is the reason why every time we turned around Sarah Palin and the T-Party were in the press daily and once the midterms were over, finding her or the T-Party was like looking at one of those collages with the "where's Waldo" question. They were promptly put on the shelf and folks like Romney and Christie were trotted out instead.

In a way, I can flip the coin and say that many republicans believe that the democratic party is run by a bunch of left wing ideologues. The problem for some of us on the left is the same one you say you have---the democrats are far more moderate than that and the evidence we can point to are the two latest Democratic presidents--Bill Clinton and Barak Obama. Under Clinton, "right wing" stuff such as NAFTA and banking deregulation occurred leading directly to the problems we have right now and as I mentioned, Obama has delivered a far heavier blow to civil liberties under the NDAA. So even among some of us on the left, there's a season of discontent measured by the gap between what's been sold and what's been done.

There is indeed a right wing agenda however. The republicans tend to sell it to their base to garner votes and both parties execute on it.
davintosh wrote:I can guarantee you that the party leadership isn't happy about the presence of the "Tea Party" in the ranks, but really can't do much about it because without them the GOP would cease to exist. And the Tea Party types are basically pushed toward the GOP because of the extreme positions taken by the DNC on issues that matter to many. Barack Obama has helped to push many more toward the GOP as well. The Tea Party types don't go third-party because of the memory of the whole Ross Perot debacle; having a right-wing third party is the easiest way to guarantee a win for a Democrat candidate. So they (we) stay with the GOP, just to keep the Democrats from a win.

But the GOP leadership continues to want to move to the middle, and if they continue, the Tea Party types will eventually make a break with the GOP and hope to break the dominance of the GOP & DNC in politics. All that's needed is the right candidate, a true conservative, that will draw the support of enough like-minded voters, and the right opponents that will push enough voters away from them and toward the conservative. No telling when that will happen, but given the way the GOP has behaved in recent years I'd bet money it'll happen in my lifetime.
I view the T-Party as mainly a media creation used to gain seats in the midterms---at least as far as how the republican party used them. The way they're set up, they are too disjointed and unorganized to pose any real threat to the republican party. They're a bit like Occupy Wall Street on the left in that sense. I think it's far more likely that the libertarians would break off and form a third party. They would have a much broader appeal than the T-Party in that they would attract many independents and those on the left. For example, Ron Paul resonates with me. I don't agree with him on everything, but a lot of what he says makes a lot of sense and I get the sense that he's not bought and paid for.



davintosh wrote:Well said. Obama has seen almost no criticism in the last four years because his supporters -- including many who "report" the news -- know he is already weak, so they shield him from any really tough questions about his history, his ideology, and his record. Last week's Univision interview really knocked Obama back on his heels; he was probably expecting to be among friends there, given the level of support the DNC has historically enjoyed (who knows why...), and was totally unprepared for what he got. It's been hilarious to read some of the reports that have come out in the wake of that interview; mainstream media types are just flabbergasted that he was hit with hardball questions like that, and that his answers were so pathetic. It's about time people started calling him to account. He's been getting a free pass for way too long.
It should be noted that whereas I criticize Obama, my issues with him far different than what yours may be. Obama does not have long political ties merely as a function of his short tenure on the political scene. So in many ways, he was a marketing phenomenon and still is. That characterization would apply to most politicians nowadays (examples on the right would be Palin and Bachman). This works for people as most vote on how they "feel" or how someone makes them "feel" rather than what is. (Of course, given the whole nature of the news nowadays, most people aren't given much to vote on other than "feelings" anyway). The nature of the system is such that whoever ascends to office is going to be pretty much a puppet and the real policies are developed out of public view and many of them are remarkably the same notwithstanding the party at the helm.

Your party does have a problem, outside of the stuff the Lofgren writes about that is chasing folks like him away. Your "marketing" doesn't match up with the long term demographics in the country and the changing electoral map. It is certainly possible for the republicans to prevail in this election, but that's going to become increasingly harder over time and the doubling down on selling far right wing ideology is either going to speed the party's demise or cause it to break up.

Posted: Sep 23, 2012 9:25 PM
by oldskool
Rich Euro M5 wrote:
OcCoupe wrote:Very well put Dave.
X2
A two handed-shake is in order, with brief eye-to-eye contact, if I may.

Posted: Sep 24, 2012 12:54 AM
by C.R. Krieger
oldskool wrote:
Rich Euro M5 wrote:
OcCoupe wrote:Very well put Dave.
X2
A two handed-shake is in order, with brief eye-to-eye contact, if I may.
The latest euphemism for a reach around, no doubt. NTTAWTT.

Posted: Sep 24, 2012 1:39 AM
by Xenocide
C.R. Krieger wrote:
oldskool wrote:
Rich Euro M5 wrote:
OcCoupe wrote:Very well put Dave.
X2
A two handed-shake is in order, with brief eye-to-eye contact, if I may.
The latest euphemism for a reach around, no doubt. NTTAWTT.
Aw man, if that's true I really screwed up the job interview I just had...

Posted: Sep 24, 2012 1:48 AM
by nnarth212
davintosh wrote:...And the Tea Party types are basically pushed toward the GOP because of the extreme positions taken by the DNC on issues that matter to many. Barack Obama has helped to push many more toward the GOP as well.
Well, money talks. Mitt simply has our best interests in mind because he know industry made this country and we must support industry whether it's in India or Bangladesh. The extreme positions held by Pres. O. threaten that interest for those of us who depend on industry to protect us from the abuses of government.

Bottom line: we must respect money more.

Posted: Sep 24, 2012 1:52 AM
by Kenny Blankenship
Image

:roll:

Posted: Sep 24, 2012 11:08 AM
by turbodan
Do lefties believe this shit?

Look how crazy republicans are OMG better vote for Obamuh!

Posted: Sep 24, 2012 12:15 PM
by shagrath
turbodan wrote:Do lefties believe this shit?

Look how crazy republicans are OMG better vote for Obamuh!
Prolly.

Posted: Sep 24, 2012 12:20 PM
by Tammer in Philly
While I'm not surprised this thread has devolved, as the original piece posted is written in a fairly inflammatory style, here is another piece from a GOP defector who, in my opinion, gives a pretty thoughtful analysis of what changed in his baseline values and motivations that triggered his political switch. I think much of this goes to the heart of the differences in assumptions about people (Mitt's "47%" example comes to mind) that drive a lot of political reasoning.

http://www.salon.com/2012/09/10/why_i_left_the_gop/

My only comment on the contents of the thread so far are toward Davintosh, who seems to believe that the electorate supporting the GOP is actually MORE conservative than the party leaders. I don't know that this is supported by data; if one looks at the primary turnouts and results, it seems that ~25% of the party actually supports the Tea Party movement, which drives candidate selection. It's natural to assume that most others in one's party think similarly to oneself, but I'd argue that the numbers (and the campaign of McCain/Palin) demonstrate that moderate republicans exist in great number and are not terribly pleased with the (primarily socially) more conservative party elements.

The point about the wayward GOP being bad for the country overall are well-stated. Before the GOP primary, I was probability of probably 75% for a vote against Obama. That probability is now more like 5%, and Johnson is the only other candidate that will merit a look. On the flip side, I supported McCain in 2000 and I would have had no compunction about casting a vote for Mitt Romney ca. 2004. The pandering to the extremist GOP elements is what destroys the credibility of these otherwise / historically moderate candidates (not to mention the selection of running mates who are either idiots or ideologues).

Finally, your comment about Obama's "history" implies you're a birther. Please grow up.

-tammer

Posted: Sep 24, 2012 1:14 PM
by davintosh
GKLCPA wrote:
davintosh wrote: The mistake made by many (including you, and I'm guessing the author of the article, although I haven't read the whole thing) is that the GOP is run by people with a "far right" ideology; it isn't, and that's part of the problem. The leadership of the party is more politically moderate, hence the candidates like Bob Dole, George W. Bush, John McCain, & Mitt Romney ending up as the candidates for President. Notice also the collective "meh" from most conservative voters in the last ~20 years... the ideology of those candidates doesn't mesh with that of the average Republican Party member. I'd have to say that in the last several election cycles most all the votes for the Republican candidates have been like mine; more a vote against the Democrat opponent than for the GOP candidate.
I think you make a fair point here which is also a tacit admission about the nature of the electorate. If it is indeed true that the leadership is far more moderate that the "marketing", then the question you must ask is why? I think the answer is that given the electorate, they wouldn't be able to win otherwise. Being "moderate" has much broader appeal than being far right wing--except in an off year election where turnout is not as heavy.
Why do you assume that a moderate would have a broader appeal than a true conservative? Look at John McCain; he was as strong a moderate (can't believe I just wrote that) as you can get. I would hazard to guess that for every moderate voter that was drawn to flip the lever for him in 2008, there were two conservative voters who stayed home that day because they couldn't stomach the thought of voting for him. I only voted for him because that was less distasteful than voting for Obama, and knew that staying home was a half-vote for Obama. If your assumption was correct, we'd be discussing a Presidential campaign featuring incumbent John McCain vs. Hillary Clinton.

The leadership of the GOP is pushing left because they are looking to broaden the base of voters, but their mistake is in assuming that the current base will stick with the party no matter what. The truth of the matter is that most voters like me are pragmatic enough to know that sticking with the GOP is the best way to keep the DNC in check, for now. If the GOP continues its lurch to the left, there will be less reason for our votes to go that direction; given the right non-GOP candidate (up against a wrong-enough GOP candidate), I will bolt from the party, as will a host of others.
GKLCPA wrote:This is the reason why every time we turned around Sarah Palin and the T-Party were in the press daily and once the midterms were over, finding her or the T-Party was like looking at one of those collages with the "where's Waldo" question. They were promptly put on the shelf and folks like Romney and Christie were trotted out instead.
The Tea Party didn't go anywhere after the midterms were over; the media just quit focusing on them. Perhaps the question you should be asking is, why does the media focus on what they and folks like you consider to be the "extreme right" at certain times, and why do they stop? If you're not seeing any activity, you're looking in the wrong places.
GKLCPA wrote:In a way, I can flip the coin and say that many republicans believe that the democratic party is run by a bunch of left wing ideologues. The problem for some of us on the left is the same one you say you have---the democrats are far more moderate than that and the evidence we can point to are the two latest Democratic presidents--Bill Clinton and Barak Obama. Under Clinton, "right wing" stuff such as NAFTA and banking deregulation occurred leading directly to the problems we have right now and as I mentioned, Obama has delivered a far heavier blow to civil liberties under the NDAA. So even among some of us on the left, there's a season of discontent measured by the gap between what's been sold and what's been done.

There is indeed a right wing agenda however. The republicans tend to sell it to their base to garner votes and both parties execute on it.
You really think Clinton and Obama are moderates? Really? Good Lord I'd hate to see what kind of guy you would consider to be a hard-case left-winger. :roll: From where I sit the DNC sure does appear to be run by left wing ideologues; Barack Obama is chief among them, and doesn't need to be pushed left because that's where he lives. The only time he moves toward the center is when he's campaigning, and he only does that because he knows it's the only way he'll get elected. Ever notice that most every candidate moves to the right when campaigning? Ever ask yourself why that is?

And you do realize that the "right wing" stuff you mentioned happened while Clinton had a Republican-controlled Congress, right? I have little doubt that if control of Congress didn't go to the Republicans in 1994 Clinton would've done things much differently. He was just more of a pragmatic narcissist than an ideologue, and made his decisions by sticking his finger in the wind rather than by any sense of conviction. He likes to be liked, and knew that he didn't have much choice other than to go with Congress on that "right wing stuff".

And why the hell do you assume that the current NDAA is solely a right-wing creation? Obama's support of it sure isn't a signal that he's a moderate; perhaps it's more a sign that the legislators on the left aren't the champions of civil liberties you believe them to be. From what I've seen, the likes of Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid have far less respect for the rights of you and me and every other average Joe than you seem to assume.
GKLCPA wrote:
davintosh wrote:I can guarantee you that the party leadership isn't happy about the presence of the "Tea Party" in the ranks, but really can't do much about it because without them the GOP would cease to exist. And the Tea Party types are basically pushed toward the GOP because of the extreme positions taken by the DNC on issues that matter to many. Barack Obama has helped to push many more toward the GOP as well. The Tea Party types don't go third-party because of the memory of the whole Ross Perot debacle; having a right-wing third party is the easiest way to guarantee a win for a Democrat candidate. So they (we) stay with the GOP, just to keep the Democrats from a win.

But the GOP leadership continues to want to move to the middle, and if they continue, the Tea Party types will eventually make a break with the GOP and hope to break the dominance of the GOP & DNC in politics. All that's needed is the right candidate, a true conservative, that will draw the support of enough like-minded voters, and the right opponents that will push enough voters away from them and toward the conservative. No telling when that will happen, but given the way the GOP has behaved in recent years I'd bet money it'll happen in my lifetime.
I view the T-Party as mainly a media creation used to gain seats in the midterms---at least as far as how the republican party used them. The way they're set up, they are too disjointed and unorganized to pose any real threat to the republican party. They're a bit like Occupy Wall Street on the left in that sense. I think it's far more likely that the libertarians would break off and form a third party. They would have a much broader appeal than the T-Party in that they would attract many independents and those on the left. For example, Ron Paul resonates with me. I don't agree with him on everything, but a lot of what he says makes a lot of sense and I get the sense that he's not bought and paid for.
The Tea Party a media creation? How do you get that? And to compare or equate them to the Occupy bull$hyte is a clue that you get your ideas about the Tea Party from the mainstream media. The Tea Party that I know is indeed disjointed and disorganized, but the people that consider themselves to be Tea Partiers are united around a core set of principles, primary among them is the rule of law and the need to return the federal government to it's Constitutional roles. It's about as grass-roots as it gets. On the other hand, I'm convinced that Occupy Wall Street was as phony as a three-dollar bill. If the media in this country was worth a crap there would've been journalists digging into where the genesis of that "movement" came from and who was funding it; I have my suspicions, and if you consider yourself a leftist, I doubt you would much like what might have been found out.
GKLCPA wrote:
davintosh wrote:Well said. Obama has seen almost no criticism in the last four years because his supporters -- including many who "report" the news -- know he is already weak, so they shield him from any really tough questions about his history, his ideology, and his record. Last week's Univision interview really knocked Obama back on his heels; he was probably expecting to be among friends there, given the level of support the DNC has historically enjoyed (who knows why...), and was totally unprepared for what he got. It's been hilarious to read some of the reports that have come out in the wake of that interview; mainstream media types are just flabbergasted that he was hit with hardball questions like that, and that his answers were so pathetic. It's about time people started calling him to account. He's been getting a free pass for way too long.
It should be noted that whereas I criticize Obama, my issues with him far different than what yours may be. Obama does not have long political ties merely as a function of his short tenure on the political scene. So in many ways, he was a marketing phenomenon and still is. That characterization would apply to most politicians nowadays (examples on the right would be Palin and Bachman). This works for people as most vote on how they "feel" or how someone makes them "feel" rather than what is. (Of course, given the whole nature of the news nowadays, most people aren't given much to vote on other than "feelings" anyway). The nature of the system is such that whoever ascends to office is going to be pretty much a puppet and the real policies are developed out of public view and many of them are remarkably the same notwithstanding the party at the helm.
Really? I guess you weren't paying attention during the time that Obama first got into office and had a Democrat-held House and Senate.

I guess since you (and so many others on the left) are busy wishing for a more moderate GOP, your real desire is to have a pair of milquetoast candidates being nice to each other, and being able to make a choice based solely on the "deals" the two candidates present in their campaigns. That seldom works out. Look at what Obama promised four years ago and what we got. ≠
GKLCPA wrote:Your party does have a problem, outside of the stuff the Lofgren writes about that is chasing folks like him away. Your "marketing" doesn't match up with the long term demographics in the country and the changing electoral map. It is certainly possible for the republicans to prevail in this election, but that's going to become increasingly harder over time and the doubling down on selling far right wing ideology is either going to speed the party's demise or cause it to break up.
Jeez; don't even know where to start with this... Marketing? Long term demographics? Changing electoral map? The biggest problem with my party is that they think of their platform more as a product to be sold than a set of principles on which to build the party. I am sick and tired of politicians sticking fingers in the wind and trying to lead by following.

Just because the pendulum is swinging in one direction now, it's wrong to assume that it will continue in that direction indefinitely. I wouldn't be surprised if there came a time in the near future when the populace figures out that "social progressivism" and "fiscal liberalism" aren't positive qualities for the country. It seems the country is lurching left because of the vocal minority on the extreme left, and the guilt induced by them. But there is this thing called "natural consequences"; lessons learned that way have a tendency to change people's thinking in a hurry, and we could see that pendulum reversing direction.

Posted: Sep 24, 2012 1:17 PM
by davintosh
Oh good; Tammer's back. :roll:

I'm guessing that your "grow up" jab was aimed at me since I'm the one that mentioned his history; your assumption is wrong, as usual.

Regards,
Dave

Posted: Sep 24, 2012 2:49 PM
by turbodan
Tammer in Philly wrote:The point about the wayward GOP being bad for the country overall are well-stated. Before the GOP primary, I was probability of probably 75% for a vote against Obama. That probability is now more like 5%, and Johnson is the only other candidate that will merit a look. On the flip side, I supported McCain in 2000 and I would have had no compunction about casting a vote for Mitt Romney ca. 2004. The pandering to the extremist GOP elements is what destroys the credibility of these otherwise / historically moderate candidates (not to mention the selection of running mates who are either idiots or ideologues).
You claim to have supported McCain in '00 and yet you find Romney too extreme?

What about Democrats embracing full blown socialism? Or free, government funded abortions and contraceptives? Or indefinite QE to prop up a crippled economy at the expense of our currency? How about annual defecits in excess of a trillion dollars? Does that not seem extreme to you?

Johnson was a good candidate but the media more or less shut him out. I only hope he draws more from Obamuh than Romney. His decision to run third party seems based on a desire for attention which tarnishes his image substantially IMO. We need everyone we can to beat the margin of fraud this time around.

Posted: Sep 25, 2012 12:19 AM
by Tammer in Philly
turbodan wrote:
Tammer in Philly wrote:The point about the wayward GOP being bad for the country overall are well-stated. Before the GOP primary, I was probability of probably 75% for a vote against Obama. That probability is now more like 5%, and Johnson is the only other candidate that will merit a look. On the flip side, I supported McCain in 2000 and I would have had no compunction about casting a vote for Mitt Romney ca. 2004. The pandering to the extremist GOP elements is what destroys the credibility of these otherwise / historically moderate candidates (not to mention the selection of running mates who are either idiots or ideologues).
You claim to have supported McCain in '00 and yet you find Romney too extreme?
Maybe I need to clarify.

McCain in 2000, the real John McCain before pretending to be a bigoted social conservative to win tea party support in the GOP primary, was a good guy. McCain-Feingold act, someone who understood the art of compromise, and who stuck by his principles. Then in 2008, he backtracked on nearly every respectable thing he'd ever said in order to appeal to the party fringe who wield an outsize influence because they come out to vote in the primaries. He denounced his own proposed immigration reform, suddenly became rabidly anti-choice, became much more hawkish, became a supporter of torture, etc. This accomplished a few things:
1) (most important) It made McCain look like a coward and a hypocrite who would say anything to get votes.
2) It completely undercut his reputation as someone willing to break with his party to get things done.
3) It cast doubt on his integrity and honesty.
4) It led to the selection of a running mate who was a complete moron--a cynical attempt to get social conservatives to believe he "really was one of them" by association.

We all know how that ended.

Enter Romney: his platform as a Presidential candidate pretty much denounces everything he implemented (quite successfully) as governor of MA. See nos. 1-4 above for how I feel about that. He did better with his running mate selection than McCain--he didn't get a complete idiot, just a vapid ideologue whose policies don't stand up to critical scrutiny. At least he has policies, though; something that couldn't be said of Palin. So call it a step in the right direction.
What about Democrats embracing full blown socialism? Or free, government funded abortions and contraceptives? Or indefinite QE to prop up a crippled economy at the expense of our currency? How about annual defecits in excess of a trillion dollars? Does that not seem extreme to you?
I don't think you understand what socialism is. The government does not fund abortions. Contraception is a medicine with many other uses than simply preventing pregnancy. Annual deficits are an issue, but that's related more to the macro economy than specific administration policies. My argument is that running deficits during a recession is actually desirable, but the government must refill its coffers during a growth cycle to balance out. I've posted before here an article describing the structurally balanced budget that Chile runs year over year, which allows for deficits in lean years and surpluses in flush years. Which actually makes sense. Cutting services when they get expensive (because people need them more) is stupid. But then, the GOP hasn't offered much in the way of thoughtful legislation lately. QE is an issue as well, but again, inflationary policies were basically mandated by the bubble of '03-'07, when monopoly money was manufactured on paper by the banking and insurance sector piling bets on top of shitty loans that were rebranded as healthy. This is just a course correction.
Johnson was a good candidate but the media more or less shut him out. I only hope he draws more from Obamuh than Romney. His decision to run third party seems based on a desire for attention which tarnishes his image substantially IMO. We need everyone we can to beat the margin of fraud this time around.
Sorry you're challenged by the spelling of Obama. I don't see Johnson's desire to run as a third party candidate so cynically; I see it as a desire to not join a party that (evidence suggests) requires its candidates to act like total assholes to get the nomination (see McCain 2008 / Romney 2012). That he actually values his principles to some degree makes him infinitely more attractive than the GOP candidates. That he actually cares about civil liberties makes him more attractive than Obama. The issue that will probably keep me from voting for him is that, if he gets elected, then what? He'll have no allies in the corrupt Congress and will be completely stonewalled. He won't be able to get any bills passed. What we need, ideally, is at least 80% of the incumbents in the House and Senate voted out simultaneously (over a couple of Congressional election cycles) with someone like Johnson in the White House, but that's highly unlikely.

-tammer