524td smoking at idle, hard starting. Insight needed!

[grievousman]

Hello again guys!
A while ago i posted about some injection pump issues and i surely hope i have that figured out. I ended up finding a used injection pump that still has all the factory settings and locking collars on the adjustment screws, so i installed that with a new timing belt and timed it properly with a dial indicator and adapter.

After installation, the car started only after extremely long cranking and use of the throttle pedal. Once it is running, it smokes heavily at idle and any engine speed(gray smoke). The throttle is touchy once running and it seems to have quite a bit of rev-hang even with small increases in rpm, where it almost seems like it's on the edge of runaway. PLEASE see the quick video I posted on youtube, and see what you guys think. The previous owner said he rebuilt the injectors with new nozzles, and I wonder if the pop pressure is too low. The car has new glow plugs and they are working correctly during cranking. I am really hoping someone has seen symptoms like this before and I don't have to start worrying more about compression issues.

https://youtu.be/KDt1kHiCpMo

Above is the video link to my 524td idling and smoking.
Thanks for taking a look, I look forward to hearing from you guys about this.

[gadget73]

Sounds like way too much fuel, or possibly a lot of blowby that is causing the engine to burn oil vapor. Does it seem to huff a lot out of the oil fill cap? That would point towards blowby issues. Otherwise it might be the injectors rebuilt with the wrong nozzles or overly low pop pressure. I don't suppose the PO told you what nozzles he used?

Have you had the crossover pipe out? If that is heavily loaded with oil at the turbo end that would point towards turbo oil seals being bad and feeding oil into the motor. If its oily only after the EGR valve, that sounds more like blowby / burning oil.

for whatever it might be worth, I thought I had blowby problems on mine, turns out it was just a massive vacuum leak causing the vac pump to dump lots of air into the engine. Fixing that stopped the oil huffing out of the oil separator hose.

[grievousman]

The car as seen in the video is running "NA" I dont have the charge pipe from the turbo installed, this is just for testing and since i had been removing the valve cover frequently. i just stuck an air filter on the intake manifold for testing. there is not much blowby coming out the valve cover breather hole while it is running. this would also mean that the engine can't be sucking oil into the intake, and the smoke is gray anyway. I'm pretty sure the previous owner used monark nozzles but I can't be sure. The EGR has also been removed. Thanks for the help, i guess ill keep poking around. i'm open to any ideas!

[grievousman]

Time to bump this post! So it has been a while, and work gets in the way as always, but it is time to get back into this project. Currently, the car runs (not very well at all) as shown in the videos below:

https://youtu.be/l0o2jB1YyO4
https://youtu.be/KDt1kHiCpMo

I have a used injection pump that I bought from a member here, the pump had the locking collar on the fuel screw and caps on the other screws. The injectors have been rebuilt with new nozzles and are popping at the correct pressure on my tester. With all of the glow plugs removed, I checked compression and found great compression, there is minimal blow by, and the valves are adjusted perfectly. Once started, the car runs like this all the way to operating temperature, and doesnt change. I am at a loss as to what could be causing this gray smoke and the impossibly hard starting. The car is not using coolant, and the smoke is not blue, so in my head this could only still be pump related. If you know anyone who would have any insight, please feel free to forward the videos or this post to them. Any help is appreciated, thanks in advance!

[gadget73]

Which pump do you actually have? From what I gather, Euro BMW and 49 state Lincolns got a VE pump with no electronics, US BMW and California Lincolns got the VP-20 which has a controller. The VE has a simple timing advance solenoid for cold starts, the VP has variable timing based on what the computer tells it to do. I understand the VP doesn't act right if the crank trigger is bad and/or the temperature sensors are bad. The VE timing advance will also not work if the temperature sensor is bad so that would contribute to harder starts.

[grievousman]

I am not 100% sure which pump is in the car now, and honestly there is not cold start advance solenoid at all. There is just a block off plate on the side of the pump. The weird thing is that once it starts and runs and reaches operating temp it still is smoking like the timing still isnt right. I checked the timing again today and it is right at .69mm
probably need to start thinking about sending the thing to a diesel shop for them to rebuild it..

[gadget73]

From another post here

Bosch VE injection pumps have "R 117" stamped on them and Bosch VP-20 injection pumps have "R 118" stamped on them. It can be difficult to see the identification label because it is on the pump right next to the block. The wiring harness and coolant hoses need to be moved to get a good view. Both the IP in my car and the spare IP I have are VP-20s.

Mine does have R 117 on it. Its on the back side of the pump directly below where the emergency shut-off lever goes into the pump body.

Other thought, is the lift pump working, and do you have any air leakage on the supply side of the IP?

[gadget73]

So my car began starting harder, misfiring once it started, and smoking more than normal over the last few days. Hot restarts were actually worse than cold starts. One of the injector lines at the pump was leaking. Once I fixed that the problems stopped. Might be worth confirming you don't have any leaks on the high pressure side too.

[grievousman]

Thanks! I checked the pumps on both of my 524td models and they are both 118 pumps which have been modified at some point. The pump in my first 524 has no cold start idle advance, it just has the block off plate on both sides of the pump, and starts in any weather with a good battery and 2 glow plug cycles. I bought the car that way and have never adjusted anything other than the full load screw on the back of the pump when i was messing with turbocharger sizes. that car has head studs and runs pretty well.
The problem child is still doing the smoking thing without fail. the pump looks exactly the same as my first one with the block off plate on both sides of the advance bore. I have the timing at exactly .69mm on a brand new belt as per the manual, and I have zero fuel leaks, the intank pump works as i can bleed the filter with the key on through the screw on the housing. the thing cranks forever and if i floor the pedal during cranking i can get it to pop to life after about a true 9-10 seconds count where it promtly fills the surrounding area with a thick gray cloud. I am going to try about .80mm injection pump timing and see if i can get the thing to stop smoking. Wish me luck!

[grievousman]

Thanks again to everyone on this forum who takes the time to give some advice as to what's been going on with the 524.

PLEASE watch this video if you have about 10 minutes to kill and would like a thorough explanation of what's been going on:
https://youtu.be/jgfiCf_TDiw

The video shows the car running at about 0:40 and it only starts after extremely extended cranking times and use of the throttle pedal. The smoke does not go away even after reaching operating temperature. I have not driven the car except into the shop when it's raining and back to the parking area shown in the video. I don't want to risk the potentially high egt situation that it probably has by taking it down the road.

If you have any idea whether or not my timing procedure, equipment, tools, etc are to blame after seeing them in the video, please do comment on the video or right here as a reply. I appreciate everyone's help!

[Delphingrau524td]

Hi. I have worked quite a lot with my pump/timing recently. I think the movement on the dial indicator when turning the pump was not as much as it supposed to be in yor video. Something is wrong in the procedure, I think. My method is, when of course crankshaft, cam and pump are correctly timed which it appears to be at your car; Crank locking pin in place. Install the dial indicator. Be sure it has movement enough in an out and sliding with minimal resistance. Pull out the lock pin and turn crankshaft counterclockwise until the dial/needle stop moving. This is essential. You will notice that when the needle stop moving, you cold still turn a little bit counterclockwise without any movement on the dial. That is the point of zero the dial indicator. Next, turn crankshaft clockwise to TDC. Put the lock pin in place. turn the pump until you hit 0,69. Tighten the pump and double check. For reference, when you turn the pump you should have lot more movement on the needle/dial then you had in your video.
And i did not see you hit that flat spot when turning counterclockwise. Maybe I misunderstand. I once timed up the IP 180 degrees wrong and still got the dial reading correct. Result was filling the engine with diesel and it almost run away. Lots of smoke. I dont think your timing is that much off consider you can keep it running. Hope you get it up and running. And that you understand my writing..

Best regards, Kristian

[gadget73]

That dial gauge, does it read inches or millimeter? Inch gauge wants 0.027", mm gauge wants 0.69mm on the VP-20 pump. I can't read the face, but I have that exact Shars gauge that reads inches. I just found in another Ford manual that the VE wants 0.030" or 0.76mm so at some point I'll probably tweak mine up a bit.

and yeah, that is too much travel. I do it slightly different than Kristian but I think it comes out the same. I rotate it CW 1 1/2 turns, zero the gauge when it is at the lowest point of travel, then bring it up to TDC to read. As long as its zeroed at the lowest point and you read the gauge at TDC it comes out correct.

The key and keyway are in good shape on the gear and pump shaft?

The pump is a little off from the hole in the cover when the crank is at TDC. It should drop in if you rotate the crank a little bit though. 25/64 also sounds right. I know I used one a step or two larger than 3/8, whichever one fit the hole properly. Large hole on the pump gear should also be correct. If you use the small one, the drill bit doesn't sit snug in the timing cover so there is a possibility of movement. The BMW manual actually mentions nothing about pinning the pump at all in the cam belt install instructions. You can download a copy from the links in the sticky above. The cam belt install process is on page 110, timing process is on 237. If you find the bit about how to actually install the pump it mentions the lock pin, but it says to remove the pin then install the cam belt. Honestly the Ford manual is easier to understand. Ford doesn't like to talk about static timing in the manual you have, they want you to use whatever their special timing tool is. In the diesel diagnostics manual it gives the static timing settings though, and its the same as the BMW specs.

[gadget73]

I was fooling with the timing on mine today. Total travel is .061" or 1.55 mm. Looks like thats what yours is doing. I wonder if the injection pump is a tooth advanced for some reason.

[grievousman]

After all of that filming with one hand and trying to move the pump I double checked and the pump does have more movement than in the video, and unfortunately that isn't shown. Now I think i have it where it is supposed to be. I put the value to .76mm at TDC, and i am now waiting on some other parts to come in before i assemble the injection lines and intake manifold. I am going to throw all of the injectors on the pop tester and make sure all of them are within specs for release pressure and that the spray patterns are a nice cone.

On another note, is it 100% necessary to have the electrical connector on the bottom of the pump plugged in to get it to run? its most likely a solenoid and goes in from the back of the pump on the bottom, and it has a long black and a long brown wire.

[gadget73]

That should be the timing control solenoid. It ought to be plugged in.

[grievousman]

After all the reading I have done in the past few months on this car and the pump operation, I agree that is timing related. There is also something on some pumps that is installed on the side of the lower part of the pump that has a small hard line that goes to the pressure control valve. It also has an electrical connector on the back side of the piece. the cummins forums refer to it as the ksb. My pump does not have this but would that not be timing related as well since it goes into the advance bore on the pump body. what determined which pump got what or should they have both?

[gadget73]

yeah that's something on the VE pump. Its a simple on/off advance solenoid. Powering the solenoid bumps the timing by some number of degrees for easier starting when cold. It runs through a thermal switch. WHen thats not powered, it just has an rpm-based advance. The VP-20 is a little bit different. It has a pulse-modulated internal thing that allows a computer to control timing advance. I don't know if it also has the mechanical advance or if it relies entirely on the computer to make that go.

Euro models and most Lincolns do not have the computer. US BMW and California Lincolns do. I think you can convert to the non-computer pump basically by just installing it.