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Hi all,

Hope you all don't mind if I ask a few questions. I own a BMW with the M30 engine, 60-2 Wheel with VR Sensor, no Distributor, just the cap and rotor on the cam.

I have been working on gathering parts for a Turbo that I intended to use. I tell you, its been a long road. Just trying to decided what parts to use, and what parts not to use.

I have been considering Megasquirt, 034 EFI Mang., Haltex, etc... This question now is just about Spark.

I have been looking at either these 2 setups below. Not sure what advantage one has over the other. Which would be easier to tune, which setup would work the best.

First the MSD 6A Ignition, with a Coil Blaster:





I know either MS or 034EFI can work with this above setup.

**************************************************************

Then I found this 6 Pack at the 034 motorsport site. Looks good for wasted spark. Not sure if this 6 pack carries the coil drivers. I know that MS can be configured to run wasted spark. What is the advantage of wasted spark? I am new to this route, I hear it often, just wish I understood what, why and how come.

What would you do? MSD or 6 Pack?



Anyone have good suggestions? I shooting for 400hp at the crank, maybe boosting around 16 max on the streets, and 20 psi at the dyno, just to see what the car would do. I am not into racing, just a street car, and not sure yet what direction I would go, as far as spark yet.

I would say the 6 pack is cheaper than the MSD setup. All though, the MSD setup at Summit, has come down in price.

Cheers
Thanks for the help.
Lonzo

If you are going to go with MS or another programable ecu, then use the wasted spark coilpack. If you keep the motronic, use the MSD... and, yes, you DO have a distributor.

yeah what is wasted spark? Why an advantage when using megasquirt??


[Edit by bmwmike on [TIME]1140033775[/TIME]]

[QUOTE="bmwmike"]yeah what is wasted spark? Why an advantage when using megasquirt??[/QUOTE]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasted_spark

You won't need a distributor.

[QUOTE="bmwmike"]yeah what is wasted spark? Why an advantage when using megasquirt??[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="Shawn D."]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasted_spark

You won't need a distributor.[/QUOTE]

thanks, and thats a good description. That MSD setup is also wasted spark as well correct? So is there a reason why a turbocharged engine would benefit even more from this than a n/a engine? I know people have used the technology for years on n/a engines.

[QUOTE="bmwmike"]That MSD setup is also wasted spark as well correct?[/QUOTE]
No, the MSD "Multiple Spark Discharge" works on a traditional single coil and provides what its name describes: multiple spark discharges per firing event.

MSD is somewhat misleading, though. It only provides multiple sparks below 3000 rpm. Above that speed things are happenning too fast to fire the multiple sparks. An MSD is a CDI style ignition, which by nature fires a very intense, but short duration spark. That is why it is fired multiple times at low rpm, to make up for the short duration.

A multiple coil system, either wasted spark with one coil per 2 cylinders, or a system with one coil per cylinder, fires a longer duration spark and since it has plenty of time (dwell) to charge the coils between firings the spark stays big and fat even at very high rpm. The problem with a traditional single coil systems is that at high rpm the dwell time can get too short for a full power spark, MSD is a patch for this.

MS plus the aftermarket firmware for spark will run fine on a oem bmw setup
u can add the msd coil for a bit more power that is my plan for the summer
full stand alone with the ms setup and oem distrib

If I stayed with the Motronic, I would go with the MSD setup. But I like the idea of less parts, (minus the rotor and cap). Then using the 6 pack and wire each plug individually. Then using possibly Megasquirt with added VB921 drivers, and Megatune. Also using the stock crank 60-2 wheel and VR sensor.

Thanks for the tips.
Cheers
Lonzo

so the ideal thing would be to use megasquirt, with wasted spark? Just want to know the best way.

[QUOTE="DMNaskale"]MSD is somewhat misleading, though. It only provides multiple sparks below 3000 rpm. Above that speed things are happenning too fast to fire the multiple sparks. An MSD is a CDI style ignition, which by nature fires a very intense, but short duration spark. That is why it is fired multiple times at low rpm, to make up for the short duration.

A multiple coil system, either wasted spark with one coil per 2 cylinders, or a system with one coil per cylinder, fires a longer duration spark and since it has plenty of time (dwell) to charge the coils between firings the spark stays big and fat even at very high rpm. The problem with a traditional single coil systems is that at high rpm the dwell time can get too short for a full power spark, MSD is a patch for this.[/QUOTE]

Sooooo... The average M30 turbo doesn't really need to spin that fast -- most of the good news happens below 5500 rpm or so, yes? Is the increased compression enough of an issue to make wasted spark worth the investment? I'm asking, not challenging.

[QUOTE="LonZo"]If I stayed with the Motronic, I would go with the MSD setup. But I like the idea of less parts, (minus the rotor and cap). Then using the 6 pack and wire each plug individually. Then using possibly Megasquirt with added VB921 drivers, and Megatune. Also using the stock crank 60-2 wheel and VR sensor.

Thanks for the tips.
Cheers
Lonzo[/QUOTE]

In theory, you don't need a 60-2 setup to run MS. It can be run from the existing rpm and reference sensor. You just need the timing info from the flywheel. Then add some very simple circuitry to the MS board proto area. Im working on this right now. But wont have the timing info for a couple of weeks. This will simplify the wiring as you don't have to run the 60-2 stuff. This should cost less also, assuming you can fine a M30b35 stuff from junk yards for cheap.

As for wasted spark, a turbo engine can benefit from it, as the effective compression ratio is very high, even at low rpm due to boost. A longer higher energy spark will help. How much power is gained I don't know, maybe a 3%-5% boost??? But don't quote me on that.

RussC

RussC



[Edit by russc on [TIME]1140075519[/TIME]]

Sooooo... The average M30 turbo doesn't really need to spin that fast -- most of the good news happens below 5500 rpm or so, yes? Is the increased compression enough of an issue to make wasted spark worth the investment?

I think it is a try it and see kind of thing. Make sure everything is in top notch condition and maybe tighten your gaps a bit. Using OEM Ford EDIS stuff is probably the cheapest way to go wasted spark, if you went with a Megasquirt.

After reading mega info on the web, I think Wasted Spark (6 Coil Pack) is a great advatange. It allows one to lose the cap and rotor. One less path the spark from a coil has to travel. There is a great website that shows in details the advantages of using coils. It also talks about COP (coil on plug).

http://members.aol.com/dvandrews/ems.htm#ignition

There are many 6 packs out there, especially at ebay. Ford seems to be a great choice, also a few chevy 6 packs are available. There are many at MS that use the Ford EDIS already, but use the 36-1 wheel, with MegaJolt, see this link below.

http://www.bgsoflex.com/mjl/mjl_edis_summary.html

I know the techs at MS are still working on the new software for wasted spark with the 60-2 wheel. Still in the works, possibly months away.

Russc you have a great option working there too, the reference sensors at the fly wheel. There are 2. One that reads engine speed, the teeth at the starter flywheel, and there is also a second sensor thar reads a pin on the same flywheel, that locates top dead center. Good luck, that in itself will help many that can't locate a 60-2 wheel.

Overall, I like the idea of wasted spark, one less path that a spark should have to travel. And the availability of 6 packs from other vechicles.

All experimentation was done using a EDIS-8 module, Ford part # F1AF-12K072-AD1D07A, from a 1997 Crown Victoria (police-issue) with a 4.6L Romeo engine. Also, indentical operation was verified with another EDIS-8 module, part # F5SZ-12K072-AA. The assumption here is that EDIS-4 and EDIS-6 modules also work in an identical manner - we are testing/verifying these modules right now. If you do go to a salvage yard looking for EDIS modules, you can find them most often mounted on the fender on the left-hand (drivers) side, near the hood hinge. You know that you have the correct item by looking for the EDIS-4 sticker right on the unit (or EDIS-6 or EDIS-8, depending on cylinders) Be sure to grab the connector as well, and you may as well get the ignition coil pack(s) to make your life easy. You can also obtain used units from the salvage web at http://www.car-part.com - for EDIS-4, look for 1990 - 1993 1.9L engines, EDIS-6 on 1990 - 1995 4.0L engines, and EDIS-8 on 1990 - 1997 4.6L engines.

Cheers

Lonzo

Wasted Spark (6 Coil Pack)

Your terminology is a little off. Just to avoid confusion, a six coil pack would be able to provide wasted spark for a V-12. In a wasted spark system, each coil has two spark terminals. You only need three coils for a 6 cylinder wasted spark ignition, but they must be of the dual terminal wasted spark style. For coil on plug or coil per cylinder, you have individual coils, one per cylinder, one spark terminal per coil.

Lonzo,
Right, I know there are two sensors. The MSEns has the capability to take 2 inputs for timing, one reference and one rpm already. But the BMW flywheel has too many teeth, so it needs a simple divider circuit as an addon.

Also, I don't believe the reference sensor is TDC. Thats on the flywheel trigger and is run to the diag conn for troubleshooting only. I believe the reference sensor is some degrees BTDC. As that makes more sense for the DME. I want to say that in the equivalent Porsches its 30deg BTDC, but I still need to verify that.

RussC

[QUOTE="russc"] I want to say that in the equivalent Porsches its 30deg BTDC, but I still need to verify that.

RussC[/QUOTE]
Probably more like 60deg BTDC as total timing can easily be over 30deg.

[QUOTE="russc"] I want to say that in the equivalent Porsches its 30deg BTDC, but I still need to verify that.

RussC[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="Sweeney"]Probably more like 60deg BTDC as total timing can easily be over 30deg.[/QUOTE]

Huu, ya, sorry, I meant 60. The PT maps at low load can be as high as 45deg.

RussC

Your terminology is a little off. Just to avoid confusion, a six coil pack would be able to provide wasted spark for a V-12. In a wasted spark system, each coil has two spark terminals. You only need three coils for a 6 cylinder wasted spark ignition, but they must be of the dual terminal wasted spark style. For coil on plug or coil per cylinder, you have individual coils, one per cylinder, one spark terminal per coil.

Yep, you busted me. Ok, lets say its an:

High Output 6 Cyl Wasted Spark Coil Pack

Hows that? Better?

Russc, keep us up to date on your results. Would be interesting to hear of your results. Especially how you will wire in the tach using MS. I haven't got that far yet, still gathering parts. I have both engines, in the car now, its has the 2 flywheel sensors. Something I would try with MS first, is to get the current car running before installing the next engine, the B35 M30, 60-2 wheel.

Cheers
Lonzo

Lonzo,
The tach output is just a configurable output from the MS cpu thats wired into the existing harness to the tach input at the instrument cluster. Thats easy.

RussC

Yep, you busted me. Ok, lets say its an:

High Output 6 Cyl Wasted Spark Coil Pack

Hows that? Better?

Hmm... Not sure if you took offense or not, but if you did, well, all I wanted to do is help people avoid getting confused over mixed up terminology. I get no joy from and have no desire to "bust" anyone. We are all here to learn as much as we can and provide accurate information if we have it to share.

Nope, Not offended. All is well. I'm glad I found this forum.

Cheers!!

Lonzo