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About a year ago i installed an m30b35 and electronics (179 ecu) and am now planning to turbo the car. After much reading on this forum, it appears that Motronic 1.3 presents many hurldes when trying to turbo. I am currently pondering different engine management options and would like feedback and input from people here. The initial goal is to run around 7 psi, intercooled.
Option 1 - FMU
With 1.3's adapability how well does an FMU based management work? I know that the o2 signal must be modified under boost. However, if larger injectors are installed, how are these compensated for? AFM adjustment or let the ECU adapt? If it is allowed to adapt, will the fuel trimming cause leaness, even with the FMU? Also a TCD chip could be utilized for timing adjustment. Although this option limits growth, simplicity is nice.
Option 2 - Piggyback Fuel Computer
Use some form of fuel control, such as a S-AFC, PSC1 etc and run larger injectors, and possibly a MAF. Again, o2 signal modification is required. This is very similar to what OldgreenE34 and RussC have done(going to do?). However, depending on piggyback, timing may or may not be adjustable.
Option 3 - Megasquirt
While MS is an option, I would prefer to consider the above options first. This comes from the standpoint of minimizing downtime of the car as well as the added complexity of rewiring the car.
Any opinions or insight from those who have walked this path before would be greatly appreciated.
-Brad

Hi BBR,
All your questions have been answered mostly in other threads, as you alluded to in my M30b35 engine swap.

So far my 179 has not trimmed WOT from the S-AFC-II settings yet. I have ~35 long WOT runs on this current setup in 3rd and 4th gear and on the dyno. This is with no FMU and 32lb injs. Theres been plenty of fuel so far to support 350whp as it sets.

Todd has had success with the FMU on other M30b35s and M20s(E30s). While the FMU is not optimal, it works.

Retaining AFM offers the most adjustability but sucks the most power.

The M1.3 Motronics can adapt to very large injs. The issue I see is cold/hot start. I believe that the ECU ignores(mostly) the AFM input and uses base start enrichment. This has very little compensation for larger injs. Hence the 36lb inj size limit. My car wouldn't start with 42lb injs, but once runing was trying to adapt, but not very well. So I took them out and put in 32lb's. It starts fine now.

The S-AFC-II works great. No issues so far, and I don't expect any. Piggybacks work great. If you go that route, don't use the fuel only ones, pony up the money for a SMT-6/7. Don't go cheap, get the whole thing(timing and fuel).

MS is the best option. It cost the same as a SMT piggyback(not including installation cost) and you've seen the TCD dyno charts, right.....Those are the bomb. The low end torque is off the map and is fat fat fat. Thats were Im going.

RussC

im building or in the process of building my 1985 535i in to a turbo car. will the stock ecu handle any boost and will it run ok or just run like crap ? i have an intercooler out of an saab 9000 and a garret t-6 turbo. and oil lines. and the lines for the water cooling for the turbo. so be fore i buy any thing else what do i need to get.
or am i headed in the right direction. oh and is a t-6 to big or will it do ok ?

TurboSnail wrote:im building or in the process of building my 1985 535i in to a turbo car. will the stock ecu handle any boost and will it run ok or just run like crap ? i have an intercooler out of an saab 9000 and a garret t-6 turbo. and oil lines. and the lines for the water cooling for the turbo. so be fore i buy any thing else what do i need to get.
or am i headed in the right direction. oh and is a t-6 to big or will it do ok ?

The 059 can handle any fuel load with porper programming.

What you need is undetermined with the info given. What are your power goals, what boost?

RussC

T-6 will work, what backhousing is on it? What manifold do you plan to use? What boost or power goals do you have? That Saab intercooler is going to be pitifully small for anything. It might even rob more power than you gain due to its small size. Didn't someone try that already, or was that a Volvo unit?

As Russ said, you need to provide more information for us to be of much assistance.

Jeremy

Well, I have given more thaught the the question at hand and I am convinced that MS is the way to go. I think that if I try other methods, I will be less than thrilled and will wind up running MS sooner or later. My plan is to run MS1 v3.0 with MSNS-E to run fuel and ignition. I guess I get to have more wiring fun with this car. Russ, what are your MS plans?

Jeremy wrote:T-6 will work, what backhousing is on it? What manifold do you plan to use? What boost or power goals do you have? That Saab intercooler is going to be pitifully small for anything. It might even rob more power than you gain due to its small size. Didn't someone try that already, or was that a Volvo unit?

As Russ said, you need to provide more information for us to be of much assistance.

Jeremy

9000 intercooler not the little 900 intercooler lol yea thats a small
one the 9000 intercooler iss bigger than most the volvo front mounts. but yes the volvo ones are very good too. thats what i put in place of my saab 900 stock intercooler.

power wize i would like 380 hp 400lbs trk . but i have heard a lot of pish posh on how much a stock m30 engine will handle. i like high boost if i could sustain it with out killing the motor i would like to see 18psi or just a steady 11psi will be nice too. but i need to get my head strait before i buy any thing else and make shure i get the right parts. i have a lot of common sense when it comes to cars and i know alot about these cars but i realy want some direct knowledge from those who know. i just want my thoughts to be re-asured or set strait .

While id like to keep this thread on the topic of engine management, I figured I'd chime in on the intercooler subject. According to this Test the Saab intercooler has the worst pressure drop of all the coolers tested. The Volvo isnt a whole lot better. While it will work and its probably better than no IC at all, its by no means a great cooler.

i plan to heat bend and cut re weld my stock steel and iron manifolds. so i can top mount my turbo if the space is there ive seen people use them in this way . i had a hard time finding turbo manifolds that arnt the cost equivalent of and arm &legg

Big Bronze Rim wrote:Well, I have given more thaught the the question at hand and I am convinced that MS is the way to go. I think that if I try other methods, I will be less than thrilled and will wind up running MS sooner or later. My plan is to run MS1 v3.0 with MSNS-E to run fuel and ignition. I guess I get to have more wiring fun with this car. Russ, what are your MS plans?

Im using what your looking at, MS v3 MSNS-E. I have a cheap 179 ecu that im pulling the PCB connector off and use as the interface to the MS 35pin D-sub conn. The keeps the existing harness intact and can go right back to stock if I so desire.

ECUs can be had off of Ebay for $50, thats cheap enough to pull a conn off for the conversion. You can use the E30, E24, E32 and E34 M1.1 or M1.3 ECUs. That alot to choose from, especially if you can find a brocken unit.

RussC

TurboSnail wrote:power wize i would like 380 hp 400lbs trk . but i have heard a lot of pish posh on how much a stock m30 engine will handle. i like high boost if i could sustain it with out killing the motor i would like to see 18psi or just a steady 11psi will be nice too. but i need to get my head strait before i buy any thing else and make shure i get the right parts. i have a lot of common sense when it comes to cars and i know alot about these cars but i realy want some direct knowledge from those who know. i just want my thoughts to be re-asured or set strait .

11psi is easy with stock components, FMU, stock ECU and non-intercooled. 11psi on a stock engine is good for 280-290whp.

18psi is not so simple. Thats ~380-390whp. You need a good IC(forget the Saab/Volvo stuff, no way no how). To run 18psi consistently youll need a full kit like the TCD S2 kit. Standalone will be better along with that TCD equipment. For 18psi alot, you'll need a good engine rebuild with stronger components to last longer than say 25k miles. You'll need clutch and suspension/brakes big time. The brakes are a must with 18psi. Think big big big. Your not going to run 18psi on the cheap. Sorry.

RussC

TurboSnail wrote:i plan to heat bend and cut re weld my stock steel and iron manifolds. so i can top mount my turbo if the space is there ive seen people use them in this way . i had a hard time finding turbo manifolds that arnt the cost equivalent of and arm &legg

So $695 for a manifold is "an arm and a leg". Your not on base there. TCD sells a great high po manifold that will last 20yrs and has great flow characteristics. Better than the Dinan and Cartech manifolds.

How much time does it take to build a tubular unit like your talking about? What your time worth?

RussC

russc wrote:

Big Bronze Rim wrote:Well, I have given more thaught the the question at hand and I am convinced that MS is the way to go. I think that if I try other methods, I will be less than thrilled and will wind up running MS sooner or later. My plan is to run MS1 v3.0 with MSNS-E to run fuel and ignition. I guess I get to have more wiring fun with this car. Russ, what are your MS plans?

Im using what your looking at, MS v3 MSNS-E. I have a cheap 179 ecu that im pulling the PCB connector off and use as the interface to the MS 35pin D-sub conn. The keeps the existing harness intact and can go right back to stock if I so desire.

ECUs can be had off of Ebay for $50, thats cheap enough to pull a conn off for the conversion. You can use the E30, E24, E32 and E34 M1.1 or M1.3 ECUs. That alot to choose from, especially if you can find a brocken unit.

RussC

Thats basically what I was contemplating doing, - either using a 1.3 ECU and robbing its connector as an interface or coercing the MS board into the Motronic box. Being able to return to stock is always nice if the need arises. It may require I bit more forethaught, but will ultimately result in a cleaner looking, stock harness with less wiring involved.

TurboSnail - Regarding the manifold - I am making my own weld el manifold mainly because I enjoy the fabrication process and have a welder and the tools and knowledge required to make it happen. While I am not implying you don't, $695 is not an unreasonable amount if you lack any of the skills or tools to accomplish the job. It requires lots of mocking up, time and effort to make a decent manifold or adapter that will last as long or perform as well as the TCD piece. This will be my second turbo car, and turbo and cheap never go in the same sentence together, especially when you want 400 hp. Just my $.02.

yes i know that turbo and cheap realy arnt ones to go hand in hand . im just trying to stay out of the land called insane pricing lol
im shure you get my point on that on dosnt hurt to find the best deal. as for fabrication im a pro good quality and crafstman ship. fabrication is a hobby on the side for me . i am going to make my own intake manifold eventualy and my own valve cover.