MyE28.com

From what I am hearing though, its at least $7500.

Miller Performance M30 Turbo Kit



What do ya think Todd?

.

1. Nice website
2. There is no kit
3. Plenty of misinformation on the website
4. Makes my pricing look fantastic. Our intercooler kit which has a larger core and better designed intercooler is almost $1000 less!

Todd

T_C_D wrote: 1. Nice website
2. There is no kit
3. Plenty of misinformation on the website
4. Makes my pricing look fantastic

Todd

1. Yes
2. Soon they say.
3. ?????
4. Yea buddy, it sure does.

His A/W intercooler looks very small though. I don't see that supporting more than 400 RWHP. Interesting that he is developing a water injection system as an option....hint....hint.

I do like the intake manifold though. Would be a bear to tune staged injectors but the TEC3 can run them.

Duke M535ti wrote:
3. ?????

The entire paragraph on fueling is dead wrong.

The idea of placing six additional injectors to spray only on boost was a great idea back in the early 80s when a better solution didn't exist.

It's now 2006.

T_C_D wrote:
The entire paragraph on fueling is dead wrong.

He seems to take the tack of A/F charge cooling with the additional injectors. A water injection system is much easier and more effective.

I hate you Duke. What I should have said is "I welcome the competition". I am such an ass.

Todd

Competition is healthy. It keeps everyone on their toes.

Your response has been fine. Price aside, I would still go with a TCD kit over this one.

I found out about this guy on the BimmerForums. They are already looking to compare your kit with this "new guys".

Duke M535ti wrote:From what I am hearing though, its at least $7500.

That was me over there, and it was a WAG.

I was trying to get them to commit to a price on it but they wouldn't.

T_C_D wrote:

Duke M535ti wrote:
3. ?????

The entire paragraph on fueling is dead wrong.

The idea of placing six additional injectors to spray only on boost was a great idea back in the early 80s when a better solution didn't exist.

It's now 2006.

I commented on this on bf.c.

They were doing extra injectors years ago on E36's before they figured out how to reprogram the stock ECU. This company does it and they call it innovative.

A few years ago bell bottom jeans were back in style. Duke, you should bust out your Sergio Valente's because there up next.

T_C_D wrote:1. Nice website
2. There is no kit
3. Plenty of misinformation on the website
4. Makes my pricing look fantastic. Our intercooler kit which has a larger core and better designed intercooler is almost $1000 less!

Todd

I was planning on ponying up the $ for your aftercooler when the time came, but why should it do that. I can spend an extra grand for this mini-cooler and they'll throw in the over engineered bypass-thingy.

Umm,
I actually chatted with Dan over the phone for ~15 minutes yesterday. I asked him a few questions about the information on the website. He was a little allusive on the ECU front. But I was able to get some info that is quite intersting.

First, In Dans corner is a product that no one has bothered to tackle, not even Dinan or any tuner for that matter, a proper MAF converstion for the M1.3 ECU. Thats the 173 and 179 ECUs in the E24, E30, E32 and E34. He has gone to the trouble of re-mapping the tables in a fairly complex ECU to make a direct MAF drop in work. No piggybacks. This shows he(or at least someone he knows) knows how to tune M1.3. Thats pretty substantial. Now, it says nothing to how well it works or the cost. But that product I believe does exist.

Second, while the website is a little confuseing and disjointed, he is taking the proper approach to the turbo kit, and that is to re-map the M1.3 ECU for turbo operation. While I don't want to divulge what we talked about in our conversation, he is taking the right approach to the kit and tuning the M1.3 for boost in the mid and WOT areas. This means re-mapping the various tables and maps in mid-throttle to overcome the limitaitons the software has for O2 stochio mapping. Timing changes are fairly straight forward map changes. Un-fortunately he wasn't able to completely do away with having a piggybacks, as he needs it for boost sense and the inj. manifold controller. But the kit does remove the AFM and uses a MAP. I believe his system will use a SMT unit for the piggybacks, like the 745i systems.

Now, with that said, Since there is no system for evaluation, his claims are not verified and can't be compared yet to other systems. It remains to be seen if the system is "better" or "worse" than the others.

Im not a big fan of the inj. manifold, as Todd said. I would not use that on my car so its not likey I would ever use that system.

I believe TCDs approach is a more sound one, since cost is way more improtant than high engineering. Now, thats not to say that Todds approach is wrong, not by any means. I don't believe at this point the Miller system is better. Todd and Dan are each taking different design tracks from what they feel are the more important system features and functionality.

After talking with Dan, there was point where I was very interested in getting his stuff, just to see what it really is, but it lasted ~2 minutes, and I came back to my senses. Im going with MS, and thats it. While the appeal of using BMW ECU is tempting, I want full control over what Im doing, and only a standalone gets that done.

RussC

russc wrote:First, In Dans corner is a product that no one has bothered to tackle, not even Dinan or any tuner for that matter, a proper MAF converstion for the M1.3 ECU. Thats the 173 and 179 ECUs in the E24, E30, E32 and E34. He has gone to the trouble of re-mapping the tables in a fairly complex ECU to make a direct MAF drop in work. No piggybacks. This shows he(or at least someone he knows) knows how to tune M1.3. Thats pretty substantial. Now, it says nothing to how well it works or the cost. But that product I believe does exist.

In conversations I've had with Mark D'Sylva, he has indicated that this is a fairly easy software change with the M1.3. He even said that with some work he was reasonably sure he could get it to work with an 1.0A as well.

Of course, Mark's product knowledge and theories far outstretch his catalog actual of available products, so who knows if he could really pull MAF interacting directly with M1.0A. He seems to have very good knowledge into how the Motronic ECUs do what they do though.

Jeremy

Duke M535ti wrote:

T_C_D wrote:
The entire paragraph on fueling is dead wrong.

He seems to take the tack of A/F charge cooling with the additional injectors. A water injection system is much easier and more effective.

Apart from the poor location of the extra fuel injectors, I suspect any reduction in exhaust gas temperature is the result of a change in fuel mixture.

wjones wrote:Duke, you should bust out your Sergio Valente's because there up next.

Hey, I had a pair of SV. Loved those jeans. I also had TIDDies flip flops and Cachit shorts. Ahhhh, the good old days.

Though the system is nicely constructed it is very outdated in it's design.

As for gasoline vs. water for additional cooling... water has a Specific Heat twice that of gasoline and a Heat of Vaporization 6-7 times greater.

I remember when he was advertising his $700 K27 conversion kit and busted out a picture of the turbo, which turned out to be an XSPower turbo... which we all should know.... is notoriously cheap. He quickly changed the picture once called out.

The man loves the look of his own name... Plastered everywhere.

Jeremy wrote:

russc wrote:First, In Dans corner is a product that no one has bothered to tackle, not even Dinan or any tuner for that matter, a proper MAF converstion for the M1.3 ECU. Thats the 173 and 179 ECUs in the E24, E30, E32 and E34. He has gone to the trouble of re-mapping the tables in a fairly complex ECU to make a direct MAF drop in work. No piggybacks. This shows he(or at least someone he knows) knows how to tune M1.3. Thats pretty substantial. Now, it says nothing to how well it works or the cost. But that product I believe does exist.

In conversations I've had with Mark D'Sylva, he has indicated that this is a fairly easy software change with the M1.3. He even said that with some work he was reasonably sure he could get it to work with an 1.0A as well.

Of course, Mark's product knowledge and theories far outstretch his catalog actual of available products, so who knows if he could really pull MAF interacting directly with M1.0A. He seems to have very good knowledge into how the Motronic ECUs do what they do though.

Jeremy

Right,
No one has bothered with it to date, as the R&D costs far outstrip any profit the system might bring. Why Dan tackled it is not clear, but he did.

RussC

Just a few thoughts here...

I am not sold on the twin injectors and this business of using the stock ECU seems silly to me. Granted turbocharging any M20 or M30 is hotrodding ancient technology (Which an M20 or M30 is by today's standards) but I can't see an advantage to running the stock ECU when far better engine management systems exist.

Wow, now you can run a MAF on a stock ECU. And a $7500+ turbo system for an M30.

IMO Todd's doing the right thing here. Reasonably priced kits for these cars. Not to be a dick, but there's a reason that you hardly ever see high dollar setups on M30s and M20s and see so many homemade kits while you see huge dollar setups on E36s and nowadays, E46s.

Keep in mind, even though this is not specifically stated, the majority of the stuff he makes is to be added on to the factory e23 745i. he is a regular at the Scottie Sharpe turbo forum. His market is different than TCD's. the majority of the 745i guys don't want to get to far way from the factory stuff.

Wiseguy wrote:Just a few thoughts here...

I am not sold on the twin injectors and this business of using the stock ECU seems silly to me. Granted turbocharging any M20 or M30 is hotrodding ancient technology (Which an M20 or M30 is by today's standards) but I can't see an advantage to running the stock ECU when far better engine management systems exist.

Um, thats the real problem. A standalone is almost the cost of the turbo kit itself, if you have to pay someone to install it. Even MS is a pain in the butt, just ask TCD what it cost to install a MS setup, let alone a TEC3, Haltech, Motec, Autronic, AEM etc.

My MS install will cost ~$850 in parts and ~25hrs of my time to get it installed. Price that with your local mechanic. Thats why the stock ECU is so appealing, even if it cost $500 for the software for the turbo kit.

Wow, now you can run a MAF on a stock ECU. And a $7500+ turbo system for an M30.

Gees, you can't win. Ive heard so much clammering for a intergrated MAF solution for so long, now someone does it, and theres complaining. Oh well, you can't please everyone. The cost is high, and he wont sell many, thats for sure.

IMO Todd's doing the right thing here. Reasonably priced kits for these cars. Not to be a dick, but there's a reason that you hardly ever see high dollar setups on M30s and M20s and see so many homemade kits while you see huge dollar setups on E36s and nowadays, E46s.

We agree here, I said that in the above statement.

RussC

Standalones just outweigh the stock Motronic in so many fashions even if it reads from a MAF ,

Selection of injectors is infinite, you want to fork over $500 every time you get a new chip?

Wideband fuel support at all ranges of operations,
re trimming fuel maps from wideband input, making thus sure afr´s are what you want them to be always.

flat shift, launch control, a host of variable relay circuits that go on and off at desired operations, shift lights, boost control, noz control, and the list goes on,

Instead of bulging up the car with various tools (wideband controller, boost controller, launch control, egt gauge) it´s best to shop wisely for the best standalone for you application from the get go, and making sure that what ever features you need are available from the standalone,

Also you must be looking into the past if standalone prices around you are the same as turbo kits,

Also MS is pain in the butt, all other systems are ready for operation when you get them, saving you an incredible amount of tinkering and headache from assembling your own unit,

Competition is good for the businesses and consumers...

rundatrack wrote:Competition is good for the businesses and consumers...

No truer words have ever been spoken in any high school or college Econ class. FWIW, he has some good ideas, but my un-turbo-edumacated mind likes the TCD kit much better.

rundatrack wrote:Competition is good for the businesses and consumers...

Yes, always a motivating factor for me. It's the misinformation that drives me crazy.

MS doesnt need to cost alot, or take much time to install really. I spent only a few hundred dollars on my MS setup(bought the kit), and Theres really only a few wires that need to be tapped in to.

Talking like around 10 wires if that(coolant temp,air intake temp,vr sensor, tps sensor if needed, Power+ground,ignition out,2 injector outs,O2, thats about it).

But I definitly see how for many people, an Assembled ready to go MS System is the better choice(spare time + research is needed otherwise).

Figuring the stuff out before starting takes more time than actually doing it.

I think MS was the best upgrade ive done to my car, having full control is just great.

Well good to finally see the turbo debate front and center where it should be. Bottom line is power for cost makes the M30 a very attractive alternative for true speed freaks.

The Miller guys are totally different. Miller doesn’t do bolt on kits. They engineer turbo systems. You commission them similar to a construction reno to build a dream. They’re in the Alpina, Dinan league. They construct in-house custom spec super cars that can be driven daily. And look closely at their stuff, the quality stands alone and looks right at home in a BMW engine bay. Sure TCD;s kits can be fast, but they look just like that, kits. Open the TCD hood and voila a BMARO, or is it a BMUSTANG : )

Hahaha, I'd like to see one of his E28 "supercar" kits run the quarter mile in 12.09 seconds @ 120 mph. When that happens, I'll give him props as a serious competitor to TCD's underpriced low class kits...oh, and as long as the pricing is in the same ballpark too. Anyone can make a car fast for $10k...

senna4ever wrote: The Miller guys are totally different. Miller doesn’t do bolt on kits. They engineer turbo systems. You commission them similar to a construction reno to build a dream. They’re in the Alpina, Dinan league. They construct in-house custom spec super cars that can be driven daily. And look closely at their stuff, the quality stands alone and looks right at home in a BMW engine bay. Sure TCD;s kits can be fast, but they look just like that, kits. Open the TCD hood and voila a BMARO, or is it a BMUSTANG : )

senna4ever wrote:Well good to finally see the turbo debate front and center where it should be. Bottom line is power for cost makes the M30 a very attractive alternative for true speed freaks.

The Miller guys are totally different. Miller doesn’t do bolt on kits. They engineer turbo systems. You commission them similar to a construction reno to build a dream. They’re in the Alpina, Dinan league. They construct in-house custom spec super cars that can be driven daily. And look closely at their stuff, the quality stands alone and looks right at home in a BMW engine bay. Sure TCD;s kits can be fast, but they look just like that, kits. Open the TCD hood and voila a BMARO, or is it a BMUSTANG : )

The M30 is an attractive package for speed freaks, but why the hell would you spend that amount of money on it when in reality, someone spending that much money should have Miller fabricate an S38 or M88 Turbo. Now I know why Todd was crying misinformation. And to even compare a TCD kit to a "BMARO" or "BMUSTANG" as you referred to is absurd. Actually, everything you are saying is absurd.

Ben