MyE28.com

The system is installed and wired into the TEC3.

A (GPO) General Purpose Output controls the high speed valve that in turn allows W/A to the 1mm nozzle.

I took her out and did some 10 - 15 psi runs on the highway. W/A injection is the BOMB! The car is much smoother and runs stronger than without it. From my research on WI I gathered this, a WI system will smooth out any "inconsistency" in tuning. Being that my car has yet to get some dyno time at these boost level, I would say that I do have "inconsistencies" in my tuning. Means only better things once the car gets some dyno time. My A/F ratio is running between 12.2 ad 12.5 at 15 psi which makes getting to a dyno not such a big deal right now.
The W/A will also keep my engine very clean. No carbon build up here.

I am currently injecting from 7 -15 psi. My task now it to keep increasingly the W/A amount until the engine loses power and then back it off. This is how to get the optimum amount of water, so I have read.

I also has some fun with a Corvette. While approaching a right turn off, the car in front of me was turning right. At the same time a 2000 something corvette was tuning right on the street I am on and then would be in front of me. I had to slow to let the car in front of me turn and the vett then turned in front of me. I was in 2nd and hit it to pass him on his left. I was full throttle, 15 psi. I could hear him hit it also and the very rapid passing of him slowed dramatically but did not stop. I changed into third, full throttle, 15 psi and I ran away from him. I don't know if he was giving it his all but it sure looked and sounded like it. We played a little more cat and mouse down a fantastic hilly road. I turned around to return home and he kept going, seemingly with tail between his highly polished purple vetts rear wheels.

If you want more reading that you can ever do on water/alcohol injecting to include building your own cheap system check out this forum - http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpBB2/index.php

Any reason why ya installed this before fully tuning the car....?

Congrats on the kill btw..

rundatrack wrote:Any reason why ya installed this before fully tuning the car....?

Congrats on the kill btw..

Why wait, it is insurance against detonation and high CC temps.

Even with A/F ratios in the mid 12's I have had to retard the timing down to 11 degrees at 15 psi due to detonating. There is a noted drop in the knock readings while injecting W/A which is a welcome change. I may increase the advance to 12 or 13 to see how that works but I do not want to operate the engine in a must have W/A injection mode.

I also want to be able to adjust the W/A injection rates while on the dyno.

if your detonating duke...why not get ya car tuned properly and then add the water injection?

I dont know much about this application but something just sounds off....

Sounds a little like your buidling on a shaky foundation...with regards to tuning...


Is this a band-aid?

rundatrack wrote: ...why not get ya car tuned properly and then add the water injection?
I dont know much about this application but something just sounds off....
Sounds a little like your buidling on a shaky foundation...with regards to tuning...
Is this a band-aid?

What is "properly tuned"? I would gather on a dyno which will give you the HP and torque read out.

With the modern ECU I can adjust everything and datalog everything.

You would not believe how much tuning I can do on the road. I can data log 29 different data parameters. I mainly look at RPM, ADV, MAP, TPS, AFR (wide band), MAT, KNOCK and GPO1.

I then look at each of these as they compare to each other by the millisecond. I then make note where to change fuel delivery, timing and now W/A amounts. Once that looks all good, I increase the boost and start over. I am able to do some solid WOT 2nd, 3rd and partial 4th gear pull on the freeway. I then pull off and check the data logs. Consider it a live dyno run, the only thing I do not have is the HP, torque readings. I predict much less time on the dyno other than tweaking some parameters and noting power outputs.

Something sounds off.............that is what Todd and I have been wondering about, why so much detonation? A two valve engine should be able to run lots of advance. Now the 4V engine can not run much advance due to the high flow of the cylinder heads. I am thinking, hoping, that due to all of the work to the H6s head, it can not run as much advance as we are accustomed too with th B34 or B35 head. The dyno will show what the power output is and that will be good.

That all being said -

I will not take the car over 15 psi without a dyno, to damn dangerous on the road. Thank god I have awesome brakes. I will tune it to 22 psi on the dyno.

I was just thinking that you would have finished your on road tuning to the point of no detonation firs without the water injection.

Then add the water injection and see if there are any improvements.


Not saying that your tuning methods are wrong at all. But your having detonation you said. So I just thought that you just havent completed it yet...

rundatrack wrote:I was just thinking that you would have finished your on road tuning to the point of no detonation firs without the water injection.
Then add the water injection and see if there are any improvements.
Not saying that your tuning methods are wrong at all. But your having detonation you said. So I just thought that you just haven't completed it yet...

I did. Thats why I am at 11- 15 degrees at 15 psi and 18-22 at 7.5 psi. Those numbers were much higher. I had to get the A/F ratios in the mid 12s and then pull timing until no audible detonation. The knock sensor is about useless, when I hear it, there are no spikes just lots of noise. I can say the W/A injection does knock that noise way down.

Getting my fuel map right was a challenge, I finally figured out what the correct UAP (user adjustable pulse width) needed to be with my engine and injectors and now all is good.

This past weekend I made over 20 datalog runs. I was limited by computer battery time.

Duke M535ti wrote:

rundatrack wrote:I was just thinking that you would have finished your on road tuning to the point of no detonation firs without the water injection.
Then add the water injection and see if there are any improvements.
Not saying that your tuning methods are wrong at all. But your having detonation you said. So I just thought that you just haven't completed it yet...

I did. Thats why I am at 11- 15 degrees at 15 psi and 18-22 at 7.5 psi. Those numbers were much higher. I had to get the A/F ratios in the mid 12s and then pull timing until no audible detonation. The knock sensor is about useless, when I hear it, there are no spikes just lots of noise. I can say the W/A injection does knock that noise way down.

Getting my fuel map right was a challenge, I finally figured out what the correct UAP (user adjustable pulse width) needed to be with my engine and injectors and now all is good.

This past weekend I made over 20 datalog runs. I was limited by computer battery time.

Very valuable learning process you seem to be having....congrats

Well...if the tuning is right...now ya add the W/I and ya feel some real improvements..then...


Next step...the track?

rundatrack wrote:
Next step...the track?

Not sure. Driving schools yes. Can you see the instructors face when I get deep into the throttle the first time at 20 psi..............I bet it will be priceless. Soon after I will be told to turn off the EBC and stay at 7.5 psi

Duke M535ti wrote:

rundatrack wrote:
Next step...the track?

Not sure. Driving schools yes. Can you see the instructors face when I get deep into the throttle the first time at 20 psi..............I bet it will be priceless. Soon after I will be told to turn off the EBC and stay at 7.5 psi

Surprised cuz of the power coming out of your car yes...


But those vettes are terrors in scca....


but ya right....ya probably should tell him that it is a m5 look-a-like that has a stock m20 in there...ya know sleeper...


and launch like a raped ape on his arse...hahaha

Duke M535ti wrote: My task now it to keep increasingly the W/A amount until the engine loses power and then back it off. This is how to get the optimum amount of water, so I have read.

I think you would be better served by Datalogging and comparing the MATs and adjusting the WI until you obtain the best cooling effect.

T_C_D wrote:
I think you would be better served by Datalogging and comparing the MATs and adjusting the WI until you obtain the best cooling effect.

I did, the MAT does not change quick enough to see any drastic change. Even though it is in the air stream, it is output is slow. I have read that there are much more sensitive IAT sensors that react much faster to temp changes than the standard GM one. I need to do more research.

Aquamist recommends injecting 10% water/alcohol compared to Fuel. My injectors at 100% DC will deliver 4500 cc/min. The 1mm jet will flow 620 cc/min at 100% pump DC.

So the 1mm jet can easily deliver the 10%. So far, the highest DC for my injectors has been 40% under 15 psi of boost. So, long story short, I am injecting more than 10% now, need to reduce it some.

http://ausrotary.dntinternet.com/forums ... hp?t=38929

my favorite link....

water injection seems to be pretty magic stuff, although i think you'd wanna get you timing about right without it.

with it, it looks like you can just crank up the boost.....

<img src="http://e28-535i.com/upload/WIdl.JPG">

Here is a good example of what I am looking at when tuning off of a datalog -

The vertical line is a reference line and is showing 66.370 seconds into the log.

RPM - 4424
MAT - 43 C (manifold air temp)
MAP - 197.40 kPa (just shy of 15 psi)
TPS - 4.39 Volts (WOT)
GPO1 - 23.92% duty cycle of the water injection. 100% DC of the jet is 620 cc/min, so I am injecting 148 cc/min
CLT - 91C (coolant temp)
Duty - 34.57% (injector duty cycle)
KNO - knock reading 11.37 (that is great for 15 psi)
ADV - 11 degrees (timing advance)
AFR - 12.44 (Air/Fuel ratio, the most important number!)

I have new numbers every .006 of a second. Hows that for gnat's ass information?

That's great. Congrats on tuning the AFRs nicely. I just don;t understand why your timing is so limited? I am looking at my ignition map and I run 19 degrees at peak torq at 200kpa.

Could one of your settings for the crank wheel be incorrect? Have you checked your timing with a timing light?

Does the car feel like 375rwhp?

Time to put it on a dyno!

Todd

T_C_D wrote: Could one of your settings for the crank wheel be incorrect? Have you checked your timing with a timing light?

Does the car feel like 375rwhp?

Time to put it on a dyno!

Todd

THANKS! This is an older datalog, I have pulled some fuel out in some areas as you can see it was slightly fat before and after this ref line.

I checked that again this morning. The standard for the magnetic pickup on the 60-2 wheel is the #11 tooth (counting counter clockwise from the -2 gap). My sensor is placed on the 17th tooth. I have changed this in the WinTec software and on the ECU. I even bought a high speed digital timing light to check the advance at idle. It is correct to the .1 degree with what I have loaded in the ECU.


Actron Digital Timing Light — Model# CP7529

Has advanced features with a bright LED screen and mode indicator lights.

* Microprocessor-controlled circuitry
* LED tachometer display reads 0–9999 RPM advance display indicates to 1/10
* Unique flashlight feature
* 2/4 cycle and RPM/advance lights
* Up and down scroll buttons
* All-metal inductive pickup
* Xenon flash
* One-touch control
* ABS housing
* Includes instruction manual


So, I don't know. I am going to increase the advance 1 degree at a time. I currently have it between 12-15 at 200 kPa in the 3000-6800 rpm range.

375WHP?, don't know what that should feel like. I would say no. Its able to spank a vett though

Yep, is about dyno time. What do you think about Lexington?

According to this site http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Other/Racing/Turbo.htm
TCD S1 kit can make 400rwhp, an s2 -> 475rwhp. Is this an exaggeration or are all the customizations Duke has done somehow decreasing the HP available from a TCD turbo kit? If they are exaggerated what are the real figures for the kits?

gaijin wrote:According to this site http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Other/Racing/Turbo.htm
TCD S1 kit can make 400rwhp, an s2 -> 475rwhp. Is this an exaggeration or are all the customizations Duke has done somehow decreasing the HP available from a TCD turbo kit? If they are exaggerated what are the real figures for the kits?

Thats an exageration. The S1 won't make 400whp. It must be a typo.

RussC

Russ what do you think the s1 kit will make and what would it be, the turbo or programing, well I guss the heat with no innercooler would be the only down fall but s1 w/water injection should work.

bmw335is turbo wrote:Russ what do you think the s1 kit will make and what would it be, the turbo or programing, well I guss the heat with no innercooler would be the only down fall but s1 w/water injection should work.

It'll vary from engine to engine, fuel grade, engine conditions etc. But I would say 10psi should be doable w/S1, so ~300whp. If you can use 93octane and have a really good engine in a cold climate, maybe 15psi and ~350whp. But I wouldn't recommend 15psi on a S1.

RussC

true 15 on s1 is fun but pushing it but you can you just have to baby it more it becomes more tempormental & the heat will cause detanation but that is were the water injection would come in if you had a heavy foot.

bmw335is turbo wrote:true 15 on s1 is fun but pushing it but you can you just have to baby it more it becomes more tempormental & the heat will cause detanation but that is were the water injection would come in if you had a heavy foot.

That is one hell of a run-on sentence

gaijin wrote:According to this site http://www.bmwe34.net/E34main/Other/Racing/Turbo.htm
TCD S1 kit can make 400rwhp, an s2 -> 475rwhp. Is this an exaggeration or are all the customizations Duke has done somehow decreasing the HP available from a TCD turbo kit? If they are exaggerated what are the real figures for the kits?

I am sure one can say any engine/turbo can make any amount of HP. Like Russ said, depends on fuel, air temp, altitude and may other things.

I can tell you that my engine has developed 292 RWHP and 316 RWTQ at 7.5 psi with 136 miles on the engine. I am expecting between 370 - 400 RWHP at 15 psi. Want to eventually get 500 RWHP. Do not plan on going over 22 psi though, we'll see what that develops.

My modifications will certainly not reduce the standard HP output of the s2 kit. I think you will see that the TEC3, WI and specific turbo application will yield some of the highest output of an s2 kit on a M106 engine.

How is Duke able to type so well? I aint no english major but it reads like Shawn is posting.