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Hi, Just received my ARP head studs from the US.

anyway...was playing around with them (i havent tried them in the head yet.

i got 14 studs, 12 nuts go on the fine thread end...and 2 on the course thread end.

Do's that sound correct?

Te last 2 nuts are bothering me...and before i start installing maybe i should make sure that is correct?

Also...Suggested best instal procedure?

The Pamphlet suggests i use the ARP Moly lube that came with them...yet... it states a lower torque spec??

suggestions welcome!

You should have 14 nuts that go on the fine thread end.

Use Q-tips to get all of the oil out of the holes in the block. Then use a cleaner to get the oil residue out before you install the studs. The holes should be clean and dry.

The coarse threads go into the block. Make sure you use the moly lube on the threads going into the block, between the washers and the head, on the fine threads and on the nuts.

Torque to 40, 60 and then 80 ft/lbs per the pattern in the Bentley manual. Warm the engine up, let it cool and then check the 80 ft/lb torque.

Sorry...meant to show photo of what i mean.



The ones on the right are the course thread. X 2

The one on the Left is Fine thread X 12

Total 14 studs and 14 nuts +14 washers

Is this normal? or has someone thrown the wrong Nuts in a bag at the factory.

I havent ried them in the head or block yet (it is else where) to try them... so just trying to find out in the interim if that sounds right.

Thanks.

Is this normal? or has someone thrown the wrong Nuts in a bag at the factory.

Pictures will not come up here at work.

Sounds like you got screwed. You need two more fine thread nuts.

Contact ARP and have them ship two fine thread nuts.
The moly grease is more "slick" than motor oil so lower torque results in the same stretch.

Hi, When I ordered my studs I got 2 wrong nuts also,I just called who I ordered them through and they sent me 2 new ones immediatley and didn't ask for old ones back,I think they are all 12x1.25 and have 2 at 12x1.5 mixed in there.I didn't find out until i was ready to torque the head

Duke M535ti wrote:Make sure you use the moly lube on the threads going into the block...

Is that in the instructions?

Shawn D. wrote:

Duke M535ti wrote:Make sure you use the moly lube on the threads going into the block...

Is that in the instructions?

Cant remember, common sense though. You want the studs to thread all the way into the block without any binding. They should be "hand tight" in the block.

I use sealant on threads going into the block not lubricant...

Duke M535ti wrote:

Shawn D. wrote:

Duke M535ti wrote:Make sure you use the moly lube on the threads going into the block...

Is that in the instructions?

Cant remember, common sense though. You want the studs to thread all the way into the block without any binding. They should be "hand tight" in the block.

Sorry, I have to agree with M635i on this one and use threadlocker. The studs aren't supposed to move and it's easy to tell if they thread all the way in without binding.

Shawn D. wrote:

Duke M535ti wrote:

Shawn D. wrote:

Duke M535ti wrote:Make sure you use the moly lube on the threads going into the block...

Is that in the instructions?

Cant remember, common sense though. You want the studs to thread all the way into the block without any binding. They should be "hand tight" in the block.

Sorry, I have to agree with M635i on this one and use threadlocker. The studs aren't supposed to move and it's easy to tell if they thread all the way in without binding.

I don't agree. I have emailed ARP, we'll see what they say.

Oops, looks like Duke beat me to it, but I'll keep this up anyway because I went through all the trouble to type it in. 8)

Sorry, I have to agree with M635i on this one and use threadlocker. The studs aren't supposed to move and it's easy to tell if they thread all the way in without binding.

Hmmm... I'd ask ARP about that one before doing it. The studs won't move once properly preloaded. How does having thread lock tell you if it's threaded all the way in without binding? I'd be afraid of the threadlock building up a thin layer between threads (it sets very fast once compressed a tiny bit) and then becoming virtually useless once the nut torqued down and subsequently crushing the now dry thread lock. You don't use thread lock on bearing caps or cylinder head bolts (most people don't anyway), why use it here?

Also, if ARP says to use the moly lube for torquing, then use the moly lube for torquing - exactly where they say and exactly how much they say. Hitting the correct torque setting is not the goal when you are torquing a fastener. The goal is to preload the fastener with the correct level tensile stress. This is actually very difficult to do by the torquing method because of inconsistencies in thread forming and damage, and friction under the nut or bolt head. The moly lube is an effort in removing some unknowns to help get a more consistent preload condition using the torque method. Do you think they torque the big end bearing caps on race engines? Nope - they measure the bolt to see when it has stretched enough. This tells them how much residual stress is in the bolt which is the real goal. My point is, do whatever ARP says - they designed the fastener, they tested it A LOT, and they know more then anyone else (including me - I'm not pretending to be a know-it-all) about how to use it.

Sorry, stepping down off the soap box now.

Use the lube supplied with the studs, and use this as a reference if using a torque wrench instead of a strech gauge. As Duke said make sure the threads in the block are clean, and I would also chase them to make sure they're true. Do not use threadlocker with head studs.

Vance

They thread into the block dry or with a bit of lube until the shoulder seats.
Once the head is in place use the moly lube on all mating surfaces between the head, washer, nut and the stud.

crispy wrote:How does having thread lock tell you if it's threaded all the way in without binding?

Sorry, but that's a specious question. You don't use the torquing process to screw them in -- you screw it in with your fingers, that's how.

Anyhow, I wasn't debating what ARP may or may not have advised (I've got a set in the garage and haven't opened them), but was questioning Duke.

I fully understand the whys and wherefores of torque and how it's used to measure fastener stretch. Comparing bearing caps or head bolts to studs is comparing apples to not-quite-oranges.

The correct procedure is to use thread sealant on the end of the stud which goes into the cylinder block of a liquid cooled engine.

The issue is not torque, stretch or anything of the sort. The issue and purpose is to seal the threads to avoid seepage. These threads are fixed once the stud is installed. In practice, if you have undamaged threads it won't make any difference whether there is sealant or lube on the threads of the stud. However, using sealant on the end of the stud which is exposed to engine coolant is the correct procedure and proper practice.

M635CSi wrote:The issue and purpose is to seal the threads to avoid seepage... using sealant on the end of the stud which is exposed to engine coolant is the correct procedure and proper practice.

Sure, for a Small-Block Chevy, but doesn't the M30 have blind head bolt holes?

Shawn D. wrote:

M635CSi wrote:The issue and purpose is to seal the threads to avoid seepage... using sealant on the end of the stud which is exposed to engine coolant is the correct procedure and proper practice.

Sure, for a Small-Block Chevy, but doesn't the M30 have blind head bolt holes?

I don't know about "blind" but they have metal at the bottom...

And how do you "release" thread locker/sealant? With heat. Plenty of heat in that area to unseal/unlock the threads. They go in dry or with lube/oil.

Jeremy

Shawn D. wrote:

M635CSi wrote:The issue and purpose is to seal the threads to avoid seepage... using sealant on the end of the stud which is exposed to engine coolant is the correct procedure and proper practice.

Sure, for a Small-Block Chevy, but doesn't the M30 have blind head bolt holes?

It's my small block Chevy mentality.

Yes, the BMW engine has blind head bold holes. Neither head bolts nor studs (if used) will be exposed to coolant.

Shawn D. wrote:

crispy wrote:How does having thread lock tell you if it's threaded all the way in without binding?

Sorry, but that's a specious question. You don't use the torquing process to screw them in -- you screw it in with your fingers, that's how.

Anyhow, I wasn't debating what ARP may or may not have advised (I've got a set in the garage and haven't opened them), but was questioning Duke.

I fully understand the whys and wherefores of torque and how it's used to measure fastener stretch. Comparing bearing caps or head bolts to studs is comparing apples to not-quite-oranges.

I don't see at all why that was a specious question. And I know your prior comment was in reference to hand tightening - it still doesn't explain to me how having thread lock on there tells you if the stud is installed completely without binding. It wasn't my intention to make a big deal out of it either, I was just curious. I'm not trying to belittle you or imply that you don't know what you're talking about if it sounded that way. I added the rest of the torque dialogue because some people reading this probably don't understand the principle of fastener preload (which I didn't even really get into), and it seemed very relevant to other parts of the discussion (such as the moly lube).

Got the answer from ARP.

Use the moly when installing the studs in the block.

Sealant is required only if the studs go into a water jacket.

crispy wrote:

Shawn D. wrote:

crispy wrote:How does having thread lock tell you if it's threaded all the way in without binding?

Sorry, but that's a specious question.

I don't see at all why that was a specious question. And I know your prior comment was in reference to hand tightening - it still doesn't explain to me how having thread lock on there tells you if the stud is installed completely without binding.

OK, are you telling me that you, crispy, cannot thread an unloaded bolt/stud/nut and not tell if it is catching or binding? Understand what I'm saying?

In any case, now that Duke has gotten the answer from ARP that one should use moly, I concede.

You can allways measure the depth of the threaded hole in the block and check if the stud goes in that far and then you know if the stud is binding before it bottoms out. I would have to agree with vance clean the holes good and chase them and your good to go!

Jimmie

I would not go with the dry socket method. I want the moly on the studs and the threads in the block to protect them. I have pulled four heads now, be it a M20 or M30, and the holes in the block have always been filled with oil once the head is off. I can only assume that this happens once the bolts or studs are pulled and this allows the oil from the head to fill the holes.

This means that if the studs are not lubed at all and installed dry into the block that you will have dry metal against metal. Yes, I know that he studs are under stretch due to the torque but I feel it is better that there is moly between the stud and block threads keeping corrosion at bay.

Ok Will ask them to ship out some more nuts.

Some good info here. Appreciate it.

Thanks.

LOL @ "I know theres Metal at the Bottom"

And ill stick to the Moly supplied

Duke M535ti wrote:This means that if the studs are not lubed at all and installed dry into the block that you will have dry metal against metal. Yes, I know that he studs are under stretch due to the torque but I feel it is better that there is moly between the stud and block threads keeping corrosion at bay.

Though a little lube is the best choice, the studs are protected against corrosion with an oiled, black oxide coating from ARP.
When/if you do oil or lube them be sure to apply only a very light coating. Excessive lube may prevent air from escaping the hole, stopping the advance of the stud before the shoulder bottoms. After you tighten the studs into the block, go back over them a few times to make sure they are seated.