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Under new (engine)management

Discussion pertaining to positive pressure E28s.
M. Holtmeier
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Joined: Mar 11, 2007 3:06 AM
Location: Josephine, Texas

Under new (engine)management

Post by M. Holtmeier »

I just thought my first turbo experience should include the most f@#$ed up engine management experience possible.

It seems like alot of people are happy with MS on their e28's and I would like to build my own since this project is already 2 months behind schedule and probably won't be done in time to enjoy it this year. The learning curve has been fun though. It just seems like there a thousand ways to build these!

What MS setup is needed to run the following on an FI m30;
OEM IAC
Tach
Ignition
boost

From what I've gathered, I should run megasquirt n spark-extra. It would have to have the PCBv3.0 to run the direct coil output. All my features would be covered in the extra firmware like boost control. Does that only work on MS 1? I still need an 60-2 wheel, w.p. pulley and VR sensor if anyone has one.(I had an e34 picked out the junkyard 2 days ago, I show up there today and the guy just got done crushing it.)


Let me know what I'm leaving out, please. Any recommendations? Any input would be great.
karlo
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Post by karlo »

I'm running MS-II on my M30 powered E24. Runs very well, haven't needed the Motronic for about a month now (but it's still in the trunk just in case). I ripped apart a broken Motronic ECU and used the connector to make a cable to the MS. That way I didn't have to cut into the original harness and can plug the original Motronic back in case of catastrophic malfunction of the MS.

Everything works like stock, both the tacho and the econometer. I've reused all the stock sensors, although I need to get a separate air temperature sensor--it's mounted inside the AFM, which is a restriction I want to lose. I'm using the V3 PCB plus a little mod in order to handle the idle air valve (well documented).

Two things:

* Get the 60-2 vibration damper and VR sensor off one of the later M30s if you don't already have it.
* I'm much happier running the MS-II extra rather than the MS-I extra, it's just a better experience configuring and tuning it, and all the cool development happens on MS-II these days anyway. Boost control has just arrived on MS-II, but should be pretty stable by the time you get things installed and running.
M. Holtmeier
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Location: Josephine, Texas

Post by M. Holtmeier »

That's a relief theres MSII extra. The forums and such can be a little confusing to new people. What ignition system are running? I take it you don't use the 60-2 wheel?

Did you have someone build yours inside the oem, or do it yourself?

Thanks for the info!
M. Holtmeier
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Location: Josephine, Texas

Post by M. Holtmeier »

I'm using the V3 PCB plus a little mod in order to handle the idle air valve (well documented).
Where are you finding all this info on MS II features? All I find is MS 1 stuff.
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

check out diyautotune.com. you can contact them with questions about MS, like which version to use and what would be needed. there are a ton of e30 guys that have a ton of experience with MS too. check out e30tech.com's turbo engine management forum. theres lots and lots of info.
M. Holtmeier
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Location: Josephine, Texas

Post by M. Holtmeier »

Thanks alot. I appreciate the leads.
I apologize for the excitement, just seemed like I was going in circles for a minute.
Skeen
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Post by Skeen »

Woody6
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Econometer

Post by Woody6 »

karlo wrote:Everything works like stock, both the tacho and the econometer.
Hey Karlo, Whats the secret to the econometer? Does the motronic just send the injector pulse signal to it (it is labeled as 'current fuel rate'), or is it something like a variable 0-3v DC signal, as I found suggested on one of the other bmw forums?

--Woody
Duke
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Re: Econometer

Post by Duke »

Woody6 wrote:Hey Karlo, Whats the secret to the econometer?
Unless you have the original injectors or injectors that flow the same as the originals, the econometer will never be correct.

Econometer and Turbo don't go together anyway.
M. Holtmeier
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Post by M. Holtmeier »

Yeah, I wonder what he is connecting the wire to on MS that was at pin 11 on the motronic?
karlo
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Post by karlo »

Woody6,

The econometer just needs the injector pulse signal. As Duke points out, without injectors that flow the same as the originals, it will be misleading. The voltage of the signal appears not to make any difference.

I haven't done anything to find out if it actually measures correctly yet, but it's not very far off.
karlo
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Post by karlo »

grsmonkey,

I'm using the stock ignition system, and I'm triggering off the 60-2 wheel (my engine is out of an E34 535, so it already had the trigger wheel).

There's lots more information on http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/.
red535t
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Post by red535t »

I was under the impression that the econogauge was wired into the OBC.
Now apparently the OBC can be reprogrammed (??) to take new flow rates/miles traveled.

Please dont quote me its just the research we have followed over here.

All I need to know is;
what is the pulse from the injectors measured in?
volts or length of pulse
Maddog
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Location: Atlanta, GA

Post by Maddog »

I am also running MS2 extra right now my my turbocharged 533i. I used the stock wiring harness and changed a few things to make it accommodate my needs. I am running the 60-2 trigger wheel with the stock ignition coil. The car runs great! I am driving it every day now.

I just passed emissions yesterday in GA so that I can get my car registered now. I should be getting on the dyno for a final WOT tune in the next couple of weeks.

I have not messed with the boost control features yet but plan to in the near future.

The documentation for MS2 extra is still being updated as it is a brand new release. Basically you will need to build a V3 megasquirt II per the instructions on www.megasquirt.info. Than you will need to make the mods shown here:

http://www.msextra.com/ms2extra/MS2-Ext ... m#req_mods

After that, its all wiring and tuning. I strongly suggest you use the stock wiring harness or at a minimum the stock wiring harness grounding locations. I have put megasquirt on a few cars now, and I have never had one run so well as my turbocharged 533. I really think this is all due to using the stock wiring harness and grounding to the intake manifold in the stock location. All of my sensor readings are very clean including my wideband O2 sensor (LC-1). Grounding anywhere on the engine block should yield good results.

Any other questions?
russc
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Post by russc »

Pulse width.
The OBC can't be re-programmed.

RussC
red535t wrote:I was under the impression that the econogauge was wired into the OBC.
Now apparently the OBC can be reprogrammed (??) to take new flow rates/miles traveled.

Please dont quote me its just the research we have followed over here.

All I need to know is;
what is the pulse from the injectors measured in?
volts or length of pulse
M. Holtmeier
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Location: Josephine, Texas

Post by M. Holtmeier »

Thanks for all the links!

I didn't see a circuit for boost control on MS II-extra. Am I missing it?

I just got a reply back from DIY autotune and he is recommending a MSnS-extra "at the moment." But it sounds like there are 2 people here that are having success with thier MS II's.
Maddog
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Post by Maddog »

Megasquirt SparknExtra is stable and there is a lot of people that have a lot of experience with it. That is why DIY recommends it.

MSII extra is for those that like to play with megasquirt and don't mind the possibility of instability and problems. I'm sure there will be a time when DIYautotune recommends MSII extra, but its a little early. It is still considered "in testing". I'm going over to DIY today and will talk to Jerry and show him success with MSII extra.
I didn't see a circuit for boost control on MS II-extra. Am I missing it?
Boost control is a feature in MSII extra beta code. It isn't in the stable release yet. Doesn't look like they have the documentation about it up the website yet, but it will be very similar to the code that is written for MS SparknExtra.
M. Holtmeier
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Location: Josephine, Texas

Post by M. Holtmeier »

I'm confused here. Karlo stated that tuning with MSII is easier and a "better experience." Plus the benefit of all the latest coming out on MS II. But DIY recommends MS 1 and you yourself say it's still early.
So what would you recommend to a beginner in megasquirt?
Maddog
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Post by Maddog »

I can't make a clear recommendation but you can base your decision off the following:

You are going to have a lot more experienced people to help you out if you go with MS1 spark and extra. There is a lot of knowledge there and as far as I know, all of the software related problems have been solved. You are using older technology though in the Megasquirt world though. There is a table on the MS2 extra website showing all of the differences between the ECUs.

Go with MS2 extra if you want to stay up with Megasquirt and be able to use the latest features. Most all of the development now is going to be done on the MS2 platform. I would recommend the stable release for all beginners if all of the documentation was up to date, but that is still being done right now. If you are patient and can wait to have all of your questions answered during your install and when you are building your megasquirt, you will probably be ok with MS2 extra. I know that there are problems with the software that have been identified and not fixed and i'm sure there are also problems that have not been identified yet with the new code. It's a work in progress.

I couldn't tell you which one is easier to tune. You tune both ECUs in the same way, so I think they are both equally easy.

MSII extra is only going to get better from where it is now, and I personally have no problems with it now, so thats probably the better investment if again, you can handle the lack of written documentation about everything for the time being.
M. Holtmeier
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Post by M. Holtmeier »

I appreciate the info. Thank you very much!

What would you speculate the time of maturity would be on the MSII platform?
Maddog
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Post by Maddog »

I'd say it would be good to go in the next 6 months or so. One downfall that I have found with MS2 extra is sometimes when you reflash the ecu, the code doesn't all stick. Sometimes you will have to flash the chip 3 or 4 times to get it to work. I will recommend MSII extra for everyone as soon as they stop coming out with new code to fix issues. This to me means that the code has become stable.
FirstFives Dictator
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Post by FirstFives Dictator »

There's nothing wrong with MS1 extra code.
It's mature and easier to setup.

My car runs great with it.
Ask Jeremy how 29V felt in my old rat trap of a car.
Woody6
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Re: Econometer

Post by Woody6 »

Duke M535ti wrote:
Woody6 wrote:Hey Karlo, Whats the secret to the econometer?
Unless you have the original injectors or injectors that flow the same as the originals, the econometer will never be correct.

Econometer and Turbo don't go together anyway.
Hey Duke,
Granted, the econometer doesn't go with the turbo, but I hate dead or non working instruments, and I do like the trip computer.

As for high flow injectors, I've got a Haltech unit and can put a dedicated channel to running the econometer and trip computer, and calibrate that channel for accuracy.

Thanks Karlo for the info. It is what I expected, but I hadn't been able to confirm it without a scope or logic analyzer.

--Woody6
Euro 635 (soon to be Haltech & Callaway equipped).
russc
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Post by russc »

karlo wrote: Everything works like stock, both the tacho and the econometer. .
What, you got the econo-meter and OBC to work with bigger inj's??????

If you did, this is a very large breakthrough as the ICs that run these units have no way that I know of to re-calibrate them for different inj sizes.

Want to let us in on the secret?

RussC
Maddog
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Post by Maddog »

I would imagine you could do this with megasquirt if you were running a code that had dual VE tables. You could have one channel run all of your injectors and then the second channel output to the econogauge. You could correct the VE numbers on the second VE table to compensate for the change in injector sizes and have a correct reading econogauge.

I think you could do this, but i'd have to do some research to be sure because I have never messed with staged injection and table switching.
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

The very latest alpha code has two 16x16 VE tables. You can use one for idle and off idle and the other for operating speeds. I dont know if I would use one just for the econometer. It could go to a better use than that.
Jeremy
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Beamter
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Post by Jeremy »

Orrrrrr . . . :)

If you can figure out output signal to accurately control the econogauge, you could conceivably program an output to display the parameter of your choice on that gauge using a conversion fuction in the ECU. Something useful like, say, oil temperature, oil pressure, or boost pressure come to mind. An overlay for the gauge face could be constructed fairly easily.

Jeremy
SilverBullet
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Post by SilverBullet »

I have seen someone creat a display for AFR's to replace the econogauge, so it can be done.
M. Holtmeier
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Post by M. Holtmeier »

I just read that while burning firmware with the key on,engine off, there is a chance of burning out either the coil or the driver. Can anyone confirm this? This was exactly the problem I was having with my piggyback controller, only it was while driving.

I suppose only having the coil powered when running off of the fuel pump relay would cure that.
karlo
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Post by karlo »

I am running the stock injectors, so the econometer works without any tampering.

It's possible to control the econometer with a 0-5V input, but that requires bypassing the MPG circuit. This would've course involve some surgery to the cluster.
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