ZF transmission woes

[Ted]

Looks like the ZF automatic transmission failed on my '87 535IS. This car is beautiful and only has 103K on it. Transmission started acting strange, replaced the S/E/1-2-3 switch and everything returned to normal. Then, a few weeks after a transmission service, I noticed it suddenly started "slipping" when in gear (put in drive, gave it some throttle...car shuddered and slowly grabbed, but continued to slip). Now the car can't move forward at all, but reverse still functions somewhat.

Questions - could it be the torque converter (I have heard they normally don't fail, but...), or maybe even that S/E/1-2-3 switch? Just seems strange that the transmission would fail so suddenly at 103K! This car has been pampered!! Maybe too much if anything! If it is transmission, should I replace the ZF auto with a 5-speed? More desirable? I want to sell the car at this point, and don't want to throw any more $$ at it, but...

Any help/advice would be appreciated!!

[myfree528e]

how does the tranny fluid/level look? if its nasty (brown/burnt/black) you could have big problems. Otherwise if you had a bad torque converter, you would not be able to go in reverse either, I'm guessing its an issue with the valve body/control solenoids, which given the age, could be possible. I'm not familiar with the 4HP22 EH specifically, but I have messed with a lot of other automatics (mine car has a 3HP22).

[myfree528e]

I did some research - here's the link to the ETM that somebody has online (yes, its for a 1988 MY, but yours should be the same) - http://www.e38.org/e28/e28_88_etm.pdf it appears there is a "drive input select" that goes from the transmission to the control computer. I'm willing to bet that you would have similar symptoms to the ones you describe if that failed (as its located fairly close to the switch you already replaced, its a fair bet its dirty too). There is troubleshooting info in the manual too - I just keep thinking that this sounds like an electrical controls fault, but I may be wrong.
good luck, and I hope this helps

[rlomba8204]

Myfree528e gave you good advice. Check the fluid and smell it and look it over. It should not look or smell burnt.

Automatic transmission can go at any time and are, unfortunately, difficult if not impossible to diagnose from a distance. They also often fail with no warning whatsoever. It is certainly possible that it is gone, but you might want to have it checked over by a reputable BMW mechanic to get a better view of what is going on. I would avoid the chain transmission shops as most do a so-so job at best of rebuilding or diagnosing ZF transmissions -- they just want to sell you a transmission. Not that the BMW indy is a socialist, but a good BMW indy is, in my experience, generally more trustworthy, especially someone well known in the CCA.

The other thing is that I would not just rebuild the valve body at this age. If you are going to open the transmission and have it rebuilt, at 100k miles plus you should simply overhaul the entire transmission if you are planning on keeping the car and want it to be reliable. Clutch packs can go on the transmissions too, and I would hate to see you incur the time and expense of a valve body overhaul to only have something else blow a few months down the road.

[CT533i]

Since there are few automatic people on this board, I will chime in.

My 533i, with 4-speed auto (non EH) is now on it's 3rd tranny. The PO had trans. issues at 90K. Btw they lived in a ridiculously hilly area. Well, they took it to Lee Myles - what a mistake. They spent $2K - I know the A-clutch had to be repl. along with other things. Well, a year later at 100K it developed leaks. Another $1K at Lee Myles and it was fine. I bought it at 113K and it was fine until 120 K when drive-shaft issues developed. Turns out Lee Myles installed the wrong trans. mounts, which harmed the driveshaft (along with age). Oh and they also broke part of the trans. bracket. We replaced the bracket, bushings and diff mount and driveshaft. At 155K trans. issues developed. When cold, it hesitated to shift. It only got worse, so we repl. with a rebuilt BMW unit for $1,500. With annual fluid and filter changes, it's been trouble free now at 194K. I pondered (still do) the manual conversion - but it would take too long and be far more expensive (if buying new parts).

I've been told the ZF 3spd. and 4spd. auto's are the most durable - providing they are not EH. But even in your case, the electric part is the only extra fault, otherwise the mechanical durability is good. Hey at least it's not a V-8 trans. at $5K+.

Check for leaks. Check the level, and color of the trans. fluid. make sure you get the tranny up to operating temp. Drive it on the highway for a bit, park it, don't shut it off, then check the fluid.

A journalist from the BMW CCA advises using the parking brake whenever your on any hill. It alleviates strain on the trans. by holding the weight of the vehicle. Make sure you first put it in N, apply the parking brake, remove foot from brake, let weight shift to rear brakes, then throw it in P. The same goes with those with manuals (excluding the P - put in 2 or 4).

I've been advised to change the ATF, and filter (and seal) every year since replacing my auto. I have this done along with the brake fluid.

Oh and NEVER rev strongly in P or N! The trans. can self destruct, or at least do fatal harm to the A-clutch due to excessive pressure build-up. BMW NA posted a bulletin in 1986 for ZF autos (including your's and mine). If a technician needs to rev it in P or N (for A/C charge or emission testing) make the engine is off for at least 90 sec. Re-start, do not select any gear (leave in P or N). Do not rev more than 2,000 rpm's for a max. of 90 sec.

Feel free to reply or PM me for any other auto tips.

[rlomba8204]

Since there are few automatic people on this board, I will chime in.

My 533i, with 4-speed auto (non EH) is now on it's 3rd tranny. The PO had trans. issues at 90K. Btw they lived in a ridiculously hilly area. Well, they took it to Lee Myles - what a mistake. They spent $2K - I know the A-clutch had to be repl. along with other things. Well, a year later at 100K it developed leaks. Another $1K at Lee Myles and it was fine. I bought it at 113K and it was fine until 120 K when drive-shaft issues developed. Turns out Lee Myles installed the wrong trans. mounts, which harmed the driveshaft (along with age). Oh and they also broke part of the trans. bracket. We replaced the bracket, bushings and diff mount and driveshaft. At 155K trans. issues developed. When cold, it hesitated to shift. It only got worse, so we repl. with a rebuilt BMW unit for $1,500. With annual fluid and filter changes, it's been trouble free now at 194K. I pondered (still do) the manual conversion - but it would take too long and be far more expensive (if buying new parts).

I've been told the ZF 3spd. and 4spd. auto's are the most durable - providing they are not EH. But even in your case, the electric part is the only extra fault, otherwise the mechanical durability is good. Hey at least it's not a V-8 trans. at $5K+.

Check for leaks. Check the level, and color of the trans. fluid. make sure you get the tranny up to operating temp. Drive it on the highway for a bit, park it, don't shut it off, then check the fluid.

A journalist from the BMW CCA advises using the parking brake whenever your on any hill. It alleviates strain on the trans. by holding the weight of the vehicle. Make sure you first put it in N, apply the parking brake, remove foot from brake, let weight shift to rear brakes, then throw it in P. The same goes with those with manuals (excluding the P - put in 2 or 4).

I've been advised to change the ATF, and filter (and seal) every year since replacing my auto. I have this done along with the brake fluid.

Oh and NEVER rev strongly in P or N! The trans. can self destruct, or at least do fatal harm to the A-clutch due to excessive pressure build-up. BMW NA posted a bulletin in 1986 for ZF autos (including your's and mine). If a technician needs to rev it in P or N (for A/C charge or emission testing) make the engine is off for at least 90 sec. Re-start, do not select any gear (leave in P or N). Do not rev more than 2,000 rpm's for a max. of 90 sec.

Feel free to reply or PM me for any other auto tips.

These types of horror stories are why I advise people, when they run into automatic transmission problems, to repair the car by having the transmission completely overhauled by an authorized ZF rebuilder and installed by a BMW shop. Otherwise the car is never right, and you continue to spend money and incur additional aggravation.

If you need a transmission or general advice, I would give Autosports Unlimited (www.autosportsunlimited.com) (no affiliation whatsoever) and ask for Kirt Koeller. Autosports is an authorized ZF rebuilder, they are reputable, and Kirt is a great guy. Or go to ZF's web site and check their list of authorized ZF rebuilders.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

[myfree528e]

I have heard that you should not rev in P or N - and I KNOW it applies to 4HP22s, but does it also apply to 3HP22/all other ZF trannys? Is there a "cure" to the pressure build up issue? (sans rebuild) I've tried to search for info about the issue, but I haven't had much luck.
I'm actually going to do the 5-speed swap in mine as soon as I work out a few other bugs and have the $$ because A) I HATE driving auto, B) its got over 260k on the tranny, and I'm having some (minor) issues like it doesn't want to kickdown from 2-1 (3-2 works great) C) reliability, manual trannies give you ample warning before failure (failure, as in leaving you stranded somewhere)
I'd just like to keep this thing limping along as long as possible.
Thx

[Rich Euro M5]

When the 4HP22EH in my '86 535i/A bites the big one I'll probably do the 5-speed conversion. From a price standpoint, I can do the 5-speed conversion for less than the cost of a rebuilt auto transmssion. If you can't do the work / conversion, then a rebuilt 4HP22EH would be the way to go.

Rich

[wkohler]

When the 4HP22EH in my '86 535i/A bites the big one I'll probably do the 5-speed conversion. From a price standpoint, I can do the 5-speed conversion for less than the cost of a rebuilt auto transmssion. If you can't do the work / conversion, then a rebuilt 4HP22EH would be the way to go.

Rich

Unless you absolutely, positively have to have it... (wait...this is sounding like the wrong thread...)

The 5-speed option is a great one unless you have to have an auto (like if you spend a good portion of your life stuck in traffic on the 210 in Pasadena). My 533i was still on the original clutch at 264k, and it could have gone longer if I had thought about clutch hydraulics. In other words, pay $1500 once or pay big money several times. In fact, it doesn't seem to difficult to accomplish.

Good luck!

[rlomba8204]

When the 4HP22EH in my '86 535i/A bites the big one I'll probably do the 5-speed conversion. From a price standpoint, I can do the 5-speed conversion for less than the cost of a rebuilt auto transmssion. If you can't do the work / conversion, then a rebuilt 4HP22EH would be the way to go.

Rich

Rich:
Not that I don't believe you, but I am curious as to what you would pay for the manual transmission. A quality rebuilt ZF 4 speed automatic runs anywhere from $1300 to $1600 plus installation, so you are probably looking low $2k total in my neck of the woods. Maybe $2500 tops.

Now you can probably beat that with a used 5 speed. But would you put a used 5 speed of unknown origin in your car? The problem I ran into when considering this option on a different BMW was that the manual transmissions were either of core quality or were as new/rebuild price, which means that they were as expensive, if not more expensive, than the auto. And then you have the conversion parts to accomplish the swap. And again, I am not a big fan of used hydraulics and what-not. The trim and pedal stuff, sure, but the actual mechanical parts are hard to find in a "known quantity" condition.

So like I said, I am not questioning that it can be done cheaper-- I know you know enough that it can be done -- but I am wondering what route you would go in terms of doing it at a certain price point.

TIA.

[ElGuappo]

myfree528e: I have read, but do not take this as gospel, that the '87 onward 4hp22s do not have the pressure build up issue, they figured out to bore a small hole (like rebuilders do) to allow pressure to equalize between the chambers. (I downloaded a transmission industry tech document on it a while back).

Still, no reason to rev your car like an american muscle car owning tool in P or N eh?

Jay3

[a]

The plain 4hp 22 ATs are much longer lived than the EH version. Mebbe its massive torque of the M 30 that tears them up. But my theory is that the problem is the wimpy valvebody that has to accomodate the solenoid shifting. Has anybody got any experience with the plain 4 hp 22 in a 535i?

[Rich Euro M5]

When the 4HP22EH in my '86 535i/A bites the big one I'll probably do the 5-speed conversion. From a price standpoint, I can do the 5-speed conversion for less than the cost of a rebuilt auto transmssion. If you can't do the work / conversion, then a rebuilt 4HP22EH would be the way to go.

Rich

Rich:
Not that I don't believe you, but I am curious as to what you would pay for the manual transmission. A quality rebuilt ZF 4 speed automatic runs anywhere from $1300 to $1600 plus installation, so you are probably looking low $2k total in my neck of the woods. Maybe $2500 tops.

Now you can probably beat that with a used 5 speed. But would you put a used 5 speed of unknown origin in your car? The problem I ran into when considering this option on a different BMW was that the manual transmissions were either of core quality or were as new/rebuild price, which means that they were as expensive, if not more expensive, than the auto. And then you have the conversion parts to accomplish the swap. And again, I am not a big fan of used hydraulics and what-not. The trim and pedal stuff, sure, but the actual mechanical parts are hard to find in a "known quantity" condition.

So like I said, I am not questioning that it can be done cheaper-- I know you know enough that it can be done -- but I am wondering what route you would go in terms of doing it at a certain price point.

TIA.

I would ditch the auto and take my chances with used 5-speeds and a conversion at about $1500. I would stick with the later G260/6 transmissions which can be purchased for $300 - 400 in good working condition. I've bought used Getrag 5-speeds and haven't had the same issues you've stated. Lucky, maybe, but for an average cost of $350 each I'll take my chances.

The reasons I have an automatic in my '86 535i. 1) I got a great deal on a two owner 5er with service records indicating BMW replaced the transmission at about 55k miles. 2) I have a Euro M5.

Rich

[rlomba8204]

Thanks for the info. I thought about doing this with the 740, but finding a six speed in good condition from a 540 that wasn't a silly amount of money for a used transmission was a problem at the time. That, and the other conversion costs associated with the electronic work that had to be done, and the ludicrously priced 5 speed autobox started looking attractive, especially when the wifey got wind of the plan.

I could definitely see, however, how these issues would be less of a consideration with the e28 drivetrain, which is significantly less complex and less of a pain in the rear.

That's why my 535 is a 5 speed.

Thx. again.

[BudFox]

The reasons I have an automatic in my '86 535i. 1) I got a great deal on a two owner 5er with service records indicating BMW replaced the transmission at about 55k miles. 2) I have a Euro M5.

Rich

Very interesting.....

My '87 535i had it's AT replaced by Memphis Roadshow BMW at 52K miles prior to my taking ownership. What the hell is it with these things??

[rlomba8204]

The reasons I have an automatic in my '86 535i. 1) I got a great deal on a two owner 5er with service records indicating BMW replaced the transmission at about 55k miles. 2) I have a Euro M5.

Rich

Very interesting.....

My '87 535i had it's AT replaced by Memphis Roadshow BMW at 52K miles prior to my taking ownership. What the hell is it with these things??

For those of you looking at some of the newer BMWs with "sub-par" or "crappy" GM transmissions, keep these stories about the "wonderful" ZF transmissions in mind before making any negative judgments about GM's transmissions vis a vis ZF.

BMW autoboxes have always been a pig in a poke to a large degree, irrespective of supplier, although they have gotten worse with the introduction of electronics starting with the "EH" model 4 speeds. Even the new ZF 6 speeds mated to the v-8s have had problems with defective torque converters. They finally start to get the 5 speeds ironed out, and then they up the ante and get the reliability all wrong again!

Why is it that BMW cannot seem to build or source a reliable automatic?

[CT533i]

Okay I found my print-outs on this ZF-Auto Bulletin. This was from an E23 745i site.

This only applies to the 4-spd autos - not the 3-spd. EH or not. BMW NA Service Bulletin # 24 01 91 (3196) dated June 1991. Models: all 1984-1986 with 4-spd autos, and 1987 635csi, 735i and L7.

According to a BMW tech., In 1992, drain-holes were made in the front clutch pack to relieve undesired pressurization. By `93-`94, BMW used GM-Strasbourg 4-spd or ZF 5-spd. The ZF 5-spd does not suffer from this issue in P or N.

This same tech., says the 750s (E32) have a similar auto to the E28's, ZF 4HP24. It's heavier duty, but still has same problem. This was especially true of `88-`89 750s.

Aside from this ZF downfall, the ZF 4HP's are one of the strongest auto's BMW made.

I wonder if the BMW-rebuilts have this vent?

[BudFox]

Okay I found my print-outs on this ZF-Auto Bulletin. This was from an E23 745i site.

This only applies to the 4-spd autos - not the 3-spd. EH or not. BMW NA Service Bulletin # 24 01 91 (3196) dated June 1991. Models: all 1984-1986 with 4-spd autos, and 1987 635csi, 735i and L7.

According to a BMW tech., In 1992, drain-holes were made in the front clutch pack to relieve undesired pressurization. By `93-`94, BMW used GM-Strasbourg 4-spd or ZF 5-spd. The ZF 5-spd does not suffer from this issue in P or N.

This same tech., says the 750s (E32) have a similar auto to the E28's, ZF 4HP24. It's heavier duty, but still has same problem. This was especially true of `88-`89 750s.

Aside from this ZF downfall, the ZF 4HP's are one of the strongest auto's BMW made.

I wonder if the BMW-rebuilts have this vent?

What effect (if any) would this bulletin have had on '87-'88 535i's and 535is'?

[CT533i]

In response to Bud Fox: Well, knowledge can't hurt. And since it's related to ZF trans. issues, why not educate those that don't know? I originally thought all ZF-4HPs had this issue. According to this tech the drain holes were first installed in `92. So based on this, there's a chance that others may have been effected. Of course this contradicts BMW's bulletin not including the `87-`88 E28's. Not to mention, it's a bit odd they would include the `87 735i, 635csi and L7 but not the 535i/is - don't they all use the same type auto? Perhaps now you can comprehend why I posted what I did.

[BudFox]

In response to Bud Fox: Well, knowledge can't hurt. And since it's related to ZF trans. issues, why not educate those that don't know? I originally thought all ZF-4HPs had this issue. According to this tech the drain holes were first installed in `92. So based on this, there's a chance that others may have been effected. Of course this contradicts BMW's bulletin not including the `87-`88 E28's. Not to mention, it's a bit odd they would include the `87 735i, 635csi and L7 but not the 535i/is - don't they all use the same type auto?

My question was not one of sarchasm, but rather one of genuine intrigue. I was genuinely asking if the bulletin had any relevance to the 535i/is auto transmissions for the '87 and '88 model years. One would understandably want to know given that there are now two people in this thread (myself included) who have very, very low mileage cars with replacement/rebuilt transmissions, why the originally transmissions failed.

Perhaps now you can comprehend why I posted what I did.

I comprehend your post, and very much appreciate your doing so. But when mentioning the 1987 635csi, 735i and L7, not including the 5 series in the post creates additional confusion.

[steve 87 535is]

There's also a teflon seal replacement that should be done to the autos when they're rebuilt, but that's not my reason for the post. I've got about 180,000 on my 85 735i (non EH), original tranny. If it quit today, I wouldn't complain. I bought an 87 735i with the EH tranny that was blown at about 150,000. But, that's because the owner was young and beat on it alittle bit. My 86 535i (EH) has over 200,000 on it and the new owner is currently enjoying it. My current 88 735i (EH) has I believe the original tranny at 216,000. I'm not bragging, just posting some positives about the auto boxes!

I wonder how long they would last with some of us who now know what not to do with these (rev, flush etc) and how to maintain them, if we bought the car new. Any original owners want to chime in?

You can also search Joe Gisler on Roadfly, he was rebuilding these for about $600-700 plus shipping with excellent feedback (non EH).

Also to Ted, the foward "A" clutch pack is probably shot and I've read that they are relatively easy to replace for little money.

[Ted]

Ted here...thanks to everyone who has responded...keep those cards and letters coming! You guys have been REALLY helpful. To Steve...I don't know enough about these transmissions to know what the "A" clutch pack entails...can that taken care of without going through the entire unit or replacing it with a factory rebuilt trans?

I've pretty much decided to sell this car regardless, but wondering if I should have the auto fixed or sell it as is and let the new owner choose to do a 5-speed conversion or fix the auto? I hate to let it go (it is a VERY clean car), but this tranny deal is beyond my capabilities. I know my limitations...

Thanks again everyone - I really appreciate and respect your expertise!!

[rlomba8204]

Ted here...thanks to everyone who has responded...keep those cards and letters coming! You guys have been REALLY helpful. To Steve...I don't know enough about these transmissions to know what the "A" clutch pack entails...can that taken care of without going through the entire unit or replacing it with a factory rebuilt trans?

I've pretty much decided to sell this car regardless, but wondering if I should have the auto fixed or sell it as is and let the new owner choose to do a 5-speed conversion or fix the auto? I hate to let it go (it is a VERY clean car), but this tranny deal is beyond my capabilities. I know my limitations...

Thanks again everyone - I really appreciate and respect your expertise!!

Don't piecemeail the transmission repair. If the A clutchpack is gone, the rest of the internals should be renewed as part of that process or the car will just give you additional aggravation. I would either repair (new auto or manual swap) and drive for a while, or sell the car as-is.

[steve 87 535is]

I haven't had to do this repair yet, but I do have a couple that need it laying around.

Link to some pics and more info:
http://www.nmia.com/~dgnrg/page_43.htm

If you were keeping the car and had the cash to do the whole rebuild (or swap), then I would advise that. You may try selling it as is and see if you can get what you need for it. If that doesn't go well, then you could just try the "A" pack. I'm hesitant on trying that with my cars becuase the tranny is a PITA to replace and I really don't want to do it twice. But then again, I have more time then money.

Edit: I did notice in your first post about recent tranny service. What service was done? If it was flushed, how old was the fluid? It may just the valve body, which can be changed out with the tranny in the car.

[CT533i]

I was looking at my service records last night. I have every one going back to 1984 . Turns out the auto in my 533i had issues at 86K (earlier than I thought). BMW service notes indicate, " *** Can Not Stop Leak - Trans. Must Be Replaced. The leak was from the front trans. seal. Now why they went to Lee Myles I don't know? They replaced the Torque Conv., planetary drum, some other drum/gears, and that's it. 15K later the leak came back, they repl. the torque conv. again, trans. mounts (wrong ones - killed drive-shaft).

When filling a new auto, does it take 6 Qts? Seems like a lot.

Steve 87 535is: What's the problem with flushing? I can understand if you have like 100K on the orig. tranny, then do a flush - but normal 30K flushes are advised. I have it done annnually now

Bud Fox: Thank you for your explanation. I took it as a smart-ass remark initially. Yeah, I know it does bring up confusion. Why is the `87 535 not included? It's basically the same tranny right? I felt the need to add all this info. to include you in my confusion and paranoia We might as well just assume to never rev any E28 auto in P or N. Same with E34s and E32s up to `92, as this tech said `92 was the year they drilled the vent hole.

Anybody know about the BMW re-builts? I would hope they have the vent.

[steve 87 535is]

Some people have bad results flushing all of the old tranny fluid out and then adding new fluid because of the detergants. The new stuff can loosen up some built up crud and send it into tiny places that can ruin the tranny or valve body.

Some people don't have any issues after the flush.

When I got my e23 at 10 years old, I just drained what was in the pan and changed the filter. Now I do it every couple years-I don't put that many miles on it.

Some people say to drain and refill about three times over the course of a few weeks, then drain, change the filter and refill. Doing it this way won't "shock" all the crud at once I guess.

By the way, I've found that my trannies are very sensative to the amount of fluid that's put back in. Not quite enough and I've had shifting problems, but add alittle more and it's fine.

You'd be surprised how many cars and for how many years used these trannies. e23, e24, e28, e30, e32, e34, some Volvos, some Jags, some Rovers etc.... of course they are not all the same due to bellhousings, valve bodies, tail extensions and electronics, but it's a lot!

[ElGuappo]

steve 87 535is: I have read that page a few times and it has given me dangerous thoughts about opening an automagic transmission.....Since we all know they operate on voodoo principles, sadly my witch doctor suit is at the cleaners so I will not attempt it.

Jay3

[BudFox]

FWIW - the PO I bought my car from was a BMW dealer rep. The guy probably bought my car for $500 when the original owner traded it in for her new 525i. Anyway, the AT was giving him trouble at 52K miles, and the dealer concluded that it indeed needed a new transmission. The rep couldn't believe it b/c of the lack of mileage, but that was that. After the install, the problems persisted. He takes the car to an import car repair shop, where the mechanic tells him all that was wrong was a bad PRNDL switch - total cost of $170. Oh well - just something to keep in mind. In the end, there might not have been anything really wrong with my car's original AT - but my new one is warrantied until January 7, 2008. It so far has 18 months on it - but only 4K miles.

I just hope I don't have to create a post about a failing AT on January 8th, 2008!!!!!

[steve 87 535is]

El Guappo:
I've had the "A" clutch in hand-pretty easy to get to. I have a couple trannies here, so I figured I'd see what's involved. I think the hardest part was getting the basket/clutches lined up (maybe two minutes of lining stuff up). That's only a last resort option for me-when the time comes.
For the cost of the parts, I think I would have to try it at least once!

[a]

El Guappo:
I've had the "A" clutch in hand-pretty easy to get to. I have a couple trannies here, so I figured I'd see what's involved. I think the hardest part was getting the basket/clutches lined up (maybe two minutes of lining stuff up). That's only a last resort option for me-when the time comes.
For the cost of the parts, I think I would have to try it at least once!

yup, I have a link to a blow by blow rebuild session. Trouble is the ATs refuse to die.