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Using td turbos on a m30b28 engine,

Discussion pertaining to positive pressure E28s.
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e28stian
Posts: 277
Joined: Sep 07, 2006 5:31 AM
Location: Norway, Fosen

Using td turbos on a m30b28 engine,

Post by e28stian »

I was asking around the local scrapyards to find the aboutish prices of turbos from turbo diesel engines, around 70 dollars or 1000nokr per piece was the price of a couple of mitsubishi td turbos.

I know people have been using m21 parts to boost 528e m20+ engines before, thus giving me an idea for making a junkyard part turbo project.

What do you all think of an m30b28 with two td turbos, rrfpr, maybe ms1 (fuel only) and junkyard intercoolers?, just my idea of a low budget turbo setup, the hours of work cobbling and plumbing it all is not an issue since i am in no hurry, and so many other aspects of the car is to be finished first.

I found a small loophole through the norwegian laws for turboing cars, it can be approved if i only have a 15% power increase, this must be documented and approved by the vehicle authorities after the build though, this have been done before, by someone running a e28m535 tic, low boost and rich as hell.

this is offcourse hypothetically speaking as of today, and if i can make it happen it will not be an huge boost machine, prob not more than 250 whp, but this is just me having a mindstorm as of today.
Last edited by e28stian on Aug 09, 2007 11:06 AM, edited 1 time in total.
turbodan
Posts: 9246
Joined: Jan 09, 2007 10:19 PM

Post by turbodan »

Two T3 50 trim turbos will be trying to push a considerable amount of air. Something in the area of 40 or 50 lbs/min. You could do that, but you would need to boost it quite a bit. And I dont know if the turbine side of the stock td turbo is good for very much flow at all. Even two of them. So you've got more compressor than you need and not quite enough turbine. Realistically speaking, just one T3 50 trim could probably do 250 RWHP. But, the td turbine side is far too small to support that kind of power. Thats not to say the td parts are useless, you'd just need to find some more suitable T3 parts and put something together.

Now, a couple T3 40 trims from a Sabb or something with .48 AR turbine housings as some kind of wheels would be a great twin turbo system.
e28stian
Posts: 277
Joined: Sep 07, 2006 5:31 AM
Location: Norway, Fosen

Post by e28stian »

Man if i only had the money,,, The idea of two fast spooling turbochargers on the 2,8 is really tempting.

So the turbine side on a td engine are seriously undersized when trying to make power on a gasoline engine, is this because the turbines are made to work with the higher pressures of a diesel engine wich will push the turbines easier than a gas engine or am i missing something here?.

Getting two smaller turbos from a gasoline engine like a saab sounds good also, but i am no turbo expert, i am still in the humble beginnings of learning about turbocharging.

So if i were to plainly take to td turbos, weld up a crude manifold, take care of fuel management with ms running with wb o2sensor/ controller, would i end up with a system that would spool very slowly?, my initial thoughts were that since td turbos generally are small, they would spin faster providing boost at low RPM, but since the turbine side is undersized compared to the compressor (given in a gasoline system), this is not the case?.
Jeremy
Beamter
Beamter
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Joined: Feb 12, 2006 12:00 PM
Location: Connecticut

Post by Jeremy »

Turbo diesels don't make much hp, and their turbos are sized accordingly. They'd spool really fast, but wouldn't be able to push enough air efficiently to make good power up top. Figure the 524td made ~120hp, then figure the turbo might be capable (being generous here) of pushing 140 hp while staying reasonably efficient. Even using two, you'd have a 280 bhp ceiling.

Considering my TCD kit makes 300 bhp at 10 psi non-intercooled with room for more, it's really not a way you probably want to go as you'll be disappointed in the end results.

The Saab turbos might be interesting if you could squeeze em in there, but there isn't an unlimited amount of space to work with. Twin turbos are difficult to fit because of the size of the turbos themselves and all the extra piping required.

Jeremy
turbodan
Posts: 9246
Joined: Jan 09, 2007 10:19 PM

Post by turbodan »

You really cant use any number of td turbos on your engine. Like I said, the 50 trim compressor on US spec td's is efficient to about 25 lbs a minute. Two of them could push 50 lbs a minute. Now, the turbine side is far too small for anything more than about 120hp. It would choke up an eta engine. Two of them would still be horrible on a 2.8. And the two 50 trim T3's would be surging so hard it would sound like you had lawnmowers fighting under the hood.

Perhaps I should have been more clear to say that you cant use stock 524td turbos. You could use a single 50 trim for a very low boost single turbo system with a different turbine, but whats the point of building such a limited system right off the bat. Especially when you could come up with a much more suitable single or twin turbo system with very common and cheap parts. Dont bother with td turbos.
e28stian
Posts: 277
Joined: Sep 07, 2006 5:31 AM
Location: Norway, Fosen

Post by e28stian »

Ok, that was almost around what my initial thoughts were, but i had to ask the people with experience.

Thank you both for your input :)

The scrapyard also had a turbodiesel from a chevy 6,2 litre, a huge thing that would probably need more displacement than i have available to make it move at all right?.

By the way, the td turbos were from a 2,5 litre pajero engine with 85 hp (just looked it up), two would give boost for less hp than i originally have,,,i am best off putting that idea away.

The idea of building a limited power system is because i must not increase the power above 15% at the time of first vehicle inspection and approval by the department of vehicles here in norway.

If it is over 15% power increase i will need to drive the car on a trailer to germany to get the tûv to approve of the technical details, before that happens i cannot legaly drive the car on public roads.

However if it is approved with turbo at 15% increase, i can turn up the boost a bit since it would already be noted in the registration that it is equipped with a turbocharger,and drive legally on the roads.

You can be thankful that you only have to worry about smog testing in the states, here it is more hours doing the paperwork right than actually building the car.
turbodan
Posts: 9246
Joined: Jan 09, 2007 10:19 PM

Post by turbodan »

Its easy to limit power output on a turbo system. Just set the wastegate wide open and run it rich. You could build a suitable single turbo system with all the right stuff and lots of power capacity and still pass the 15% test.
ISO_524td
Posts: 152
Joined: Jul 18, 2006 5:29 PM
Location: Escondido, CA

Post by ISO_524td »

Utilizing an external wastegate changes the whole picture. Specifically, the US 524td manifold and substituting the EGR for a Tial or Turbonetics WG. The engine isn't trying to push all of the exhaust through a 0.36A A/R stage1 T3 turbine. It puts enough energy through to spool the T3 compressor and wastes the rest through a separate exhaust system.

What HP could that support with a single turbo and a turbo-ed 528e engine?

Thanks!
Chris H.
Finding time to finally start 524td/528e hybrid turbo project.
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