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I think my motor is done

Discussion pertaining to positive pressure E28s.
M. Holtmeier
Posts: 3036
Joined: Mar 11, 2007 3:06 AM
Location: Josephine, Texas

I think my motor is done

Post by M. Holtmeier »

After I got the megasquirt built, installed and tuned, I've pretty much been having fun and punishing this car! Hands down the funnest car I've ever had!

I know my tune is good because I have a wideband display in the car with me, running about 12.3 at 17 psi of boost. I've been tearin' it up all over town this last month. Ripped both motor mounts, driveline shakes pretty badly now and the clutch is slipping regularly on daily trips. Like I said, I've been having fun. Out of all the engines I've ever built, I've never "blown" one up yet, even on the job. Never played with gas turbos either though. I'm always pulling it into the shop and checking things over for catastrophic failure and never seen this coming. It didn't use oil.

Anyway, I got into a tangle with a Mitsubishi Colt? last night. A mid 90's hatchback looking thing. I ran neck and neck with this guy to about 125. Met up with him at the gas station. He's running 32psi and a 50 shot through a 1.6 (insert mitsu turbo motor here). I'm sure he told what engine it was, something swapped from a XXX- I am not hip when it comes to the import tuner scene( Ha! I've got a turbo bimmer!)You know what I mean. If someone has a clue what I'm talking about, please let me know if my car should have been performing better or not.

The guy seemed pretty cool so I listened to him talk at fifty miles an hour for another 20 minutes and then went home. He mentioned alot about how clean my car was, that he didn't expect something like that to be so fast and somewhere in there he said, "My car (his car,not mine)is an eleven second car." We weren't at the strip, my response was "I don't know nothin'."

At this point my car is still running great until I start it up this morning. Constant smoke from the tailpipe and about 1 qt low on oil. Rings? Turbo? Hmmm. When the head was off for the MLS gasket, I had TONS of piston-wall clearance. Upwards of 0.040". It looked like a diesel to me. With good cross hatch and an everage 160 comp test, I figured if I didn't know what I was doing, I was only going to ruin a junk engine anyway. The piston slap was always pretty loud on cold starts.

Sorry the for the long winded post, I'm looking for some engine advice and though I'd get the scenerio in place. New pistons are $700 and it seems like new tight engines are touchy with boost. I've seen my fair share of fresh overhauls come back with 6 scored liners! I've also read about fresh gas engines giving on the dyno under boost, being replaced by high mileage stockers and lasting an entire season. I guess just another used engine would do but I'd like to make the b35 head swap. Would anyone risk reusing a MLS headgasket? They're kind of expensive.

Either way I'd like to take the opportunity to thank the members of this board for posting up all the info in which helped me to build such a fun car! :up:
Martin in BellevueWA
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Post by Martin in BellevueWA »

Maybe pull the spark plugs for a look? A compresion test might also lend some insight to the condition of the motor.
skip535i
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Joined: Oct 26, 2006 2:27 PM
Location: Lynchburg, VA

Re: I think my motor is done

Post by skip535i »

grsmonkey wrote:I ran neck and neck with this guy to about 125.
If you're running a 3.73 then you must have been close to topped out. Why not get a lower diff ratio for all that power?
M. Holtmeier
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Joined: Mar 11, 2007 3:06 AM
Location: Josephine, Texas

Post by M. Holtmeier »

The 3.73 was aquired when the car was still N/A. Trust me, I'm working on it. I can't decide on a 2.93 or a 3.25.
The funny thing is, I just had to put an alt. on this car Fri. and today I went to get my truck out to start driving it and the starter is out!
Boru
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Post by Boru »

Check the MLS over when you pull it. If the viton coating is in tack then reuse it... they're designed to be reused.
I assume you're using head studs. What did you torque them to? Motor oil or the molly grease when installing?
M. Holtmeier
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Joined: Mar 11, 2007 3:06 AM
Location: Josephine, Texas

Post by M. Holtmeier »

I used molly grease and torqued them to 50 ft/lbs.
Boru
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Post by Boru »

grsmonkey wrote:I used molly grease and torqued them to 50 ft/lbs.
All the engines I've done for TCD cars I've used the molly grease and torqued to 100lb/ft... 40,60,80 and finally 100.

I'd guess that just "lifted" the head. You could try loosening the studs and then just re-torquing.
Duke
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Post by Duke »

Sweeney wrote:You could try loosening the studs and then just re-torquing.
Drain the engine coolant first before you do this. You do not want any coolant seeping between the MLS and the head/block when you loosen the stud nuts. Make sure you reapply lots of molly on the stud threads before you re torque.

Use at least 30 ft/lb increments and make sure you have a clean sweep of the torque wrench. You do not want the torque wrench to be at the end of a pull when it clicks, should be in steady movement. Do not use any extension between the socket and wrench either.

Give this a try but I would put money on it not working. What was the RA of head and block when you installed the MLS gasket? Was the head re surfaced or did it still have the OEM finish?
Last edited by Duke on Sep 16, 2007 11:42 AM, edited 1 time in total.
M. Holtmeier
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Location: Josephine, Texas

Post by M. Holtmeier »

Would it be using oil from the head lifting? The coolant res. is still completely full. The oil is clean. The smoke is pretty light and just barely smells like oil, no coolant smell at all. The car still runs fine.
Duke
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Post by Duke »

grsmonkey wrote:Would it be using oil from the head lifting? The coolant res. is still completely full. The oil is clean. The smoke is pretty light and just barely smells like oil, no coolant smell at all. The car still runs fine.
Do a compression and leak down test. No way to "keyboard" diagnose this issue. BTDT X100.
Rich Euro M5
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Location: Klein, Texas

Post by Rich Euro M5 »

Duke wrote:Do a compression and leak down test. No way to "keyboard" diagnose this issue. BTDT X100.
X2.

How much mileage on the engine and have you ever had the top end overhauled ? The bottom end on the M30 is very robust. Can't say the same for the top end. If the compression and leakdown are good, I'd suspect you have worn valve guides and seals.

Rich
M. Holtmeier
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Post by M. Holtmeier »

I hear ya'! No "keyboard" diag's! I've already decided the motor is coming down. The piston slap when cold is getting embarrasing. It took me 2 days to decide wether or not to use the engine when I had the head off for the MLS gasket. It's just plain worn out. I finally figured, what the hell, I'll run this while I learn about turbos and megasquirts. The plan was to build a b34/b35 and swing it in. I'm fully convinced of the ability of this car and turbo kit!
All the engines I've done for TCD cars I've used the molly grease and torqued to 100lb/ft... 40,60,80 and finally 100.
Thanks sweeney, the inst. that came with the studs said 50 for molly, 80 for oil. The web site also says 50. That seemed a little light to me.

Changing gears here, what would guys do for a replacement? A "good" used short block or new? What all do I need for the b35 head? Head,cam and intake?
Duke
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Post by Duke »

grsmonkey wrote:what would guys do for a replacement?
Seeing how I was fucked over twice on a short block rebuilds, I would go with a new one if you can. Worst case GET A WARRANTY FROM ANYONE WHO REBUILDS THE ENGINE.

PM me and I will tell you who not to do the work.
chrism
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Post by chrism »

Any local competent machine shop should be qualified to rebuild your lower end if your not ready it give it a try. If your mechanically inclined enough that you did the headgasget yourself already then I would think your plenty able to do it.

If your cylinder walls were in good shape when you pulled the head there's just the matter of buying a bunch of parts and minimal machine work that has to be done.

Nice looking car BTW!!


Yes PM Duke, He is intimately familiar with what not to do.
Duke wrote:
grsmonkey wrote:what would guys do for a replacement?
Seeing how I was fucked over twice on a short block rebuilds, I would go with a new one if you can. Worst case GET A WARRANTY FROM ANYONE WHO REBUILDS THE ENGINE.

PM me and I will tell you who not to do the work.
Duke
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Post by Duke »

chrism wrote:Yes PM Duke, He is intimately familiar with what not to do.
Yup.................you are damn right brother.
chrism
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Post by chrism »

I always am ;)
Duke wrote:
chrism wrote:Yes PM Duke, He is intimately familiar with what not to do.
Yup.................you are damn right brother.
M. Holtmeier
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Post by M. Holtmeier »

I'm still hinging on wether or not to do this right, or just stick another used engine in.

How much power increase is there in using a b35 head? Does it mean having to use forged pistons, how neccessary is it? I've been reading about Maxsil pistons, are they worth it? I just know if I sink $900 in a set a pistons, the snowball will start. $135 in used short block? Throw away. How many of you FI guys are running on your stock internals? For how long(hp and what psi)?
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

Stock block here. I did rings, big and small rod end bearings, main bearings, all that stuff. Reused the stock crank, rods and pistons, which are now over 250k miles. Its boosted up to about 17 psi, it runs around 14-15 on average.

Its nice to have a brand new bottom end, but you have to really evaluate your situation. If you plan on keeping the car for ten years, and the tune is excellent, a new block would be justifyable. Thats where I'm at myself. My rebuild has been through hell with the homemade turbo and then standalone fuel injection. At this point, the tune is excellent, and I know what the motor can handle, so I would consider a new short block if something went wrong.

Given the availability of b34's in good used condition, you could also do alright going that way. 135 bucks for a good block is a hell of a deal.
Jeremy
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Beamter
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Post by Jeremy »

TCDs1 - turbo at 232k miles, currently at 259k miles at 10psi. Head was replaced with a used head due to overheating/warpage, but block is 100% original. Some blowby, but not excessive. Doesn't use any more oil than it did before the turbo conversion.

TCDs3 - turbo at ?? (hmm, actually don't know), but currently at 221k miles. 100% original, MLS headgasket and studs being the only change. Minimal oil consumption. Engine survived Todd's drag racing efforts at up to 18psi (422whp), currently lives happily at 12psi.

Jeremy
M. Holtmeier
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Post by M. Holtmeier »

It seems like stock stuff works well. I really don't think anything "went wrong" with my engine. It knocked when cold before I put a turbo on, had shitloads of piston wear when the head was off, and suffered daily driving at 18psi-as much as possible.

So, I'm looking into these Maxsil pistons for about $500. Not forged, but lighter than stock. I'm thinking this would be kind of a mid ground build but still hold up. Any body ever use these? Junk or not?
T_C_D
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Post by T_C_D »

Jeremy wrote: TCDs3 - turbo at ?? (hmm, actually don't know), Engine survived Todd's drag racing efforts at up to 18psi (422whp), currently lives happily at 12psi.

Jeremy
208k and 388rwhp
chrism
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Post by chrism »

My 230K mile car made it nearly 20K. This was through learning curves that are pretty well overcome now with tall of the tuning options available.

$500 for a set of pistons while not inexpensive, is not a huge savings over the cost of a set of forged from Todd. A good used engine would probabaly be a better alternative at that price point. Hell, ya could probably get 2 used engines for that!!
grsmonkey wrote:It seems like stock stuff works well. I really don't think anything "went wrong" with my engine. It knocked when cold before I put a turbo on, had shitloads of piston wear when the head was off, and suffered daily driving at 18psi-as much as possible.

So, I'm looking into these Maxsil pistons for about $500. Not forged, but lighter than stock. I'm thinking this would be kind of a mid ground build but still hold up. Any body ever use these? Junk or not?
M. Holtmeier
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Post by M. Holtmeier »

500 for a set of pistons while not inexpensive, is not a huge savings over the cost of a set of forged from Todd

I emailed him, I must not be cool enough to get same day replies. :lol: j/k. I'll see what he says. I don't know about forged pistons, they don't seem neccessary in this engine. Too easy to screw up. I don't know, what about drilling the rods are adding piston coolers to help stock pistons.
T_C_D
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Post by T_C_D »

grsmonkey wrote:
I emailed him, I must not be cool enough to get same day replies. :lol: j/k.
You sure? :haul:
M. Holtmeier
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Post by M. Holtmeier »

Well I got the engine out and apart. The only thing I found wrong was a collapsed turbo return line, pushing oil by the turbo seals. Not my first mistake, and won't be the last. I was surprised to find the engine in such good condition, save for worn out pistons. I was curious about a couple of things though.
1. Here's a pic of the headgasket, head side. Viton coating peeled from the edge of 4 cyl's. I was thinking of taking the gasket apart and moving this layer to the inside with a few coats of copper spray in between. Most likely improper torque, but still seems like this happened when I seperated the head from the block. Am I pushing it here?
Image

2. Should I worry about replacing the seals in the turbo?
3. I'm still looking for insight on the neccessity of forged pistons. Anybody have experience with Maxsil?

I got a B35 head/intake today. What a difference! :alright:
Duke
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Post by Duke »

I had no luck with copper spray.

MAKE SURE THE RA OF YOU NEW HEAD IS BELOW 20!

Hit the block with a razor and check with a straight edge. If block is warped at all, HG will not hold.

Get a new gasket, remove the rivets, spray Hylomar between each layer as you place the gasket layers on the block (in the correct order).

Torque the head properly and retorque after one heat cycle, two days, one week, once month, and repeat until the stud nuts do not move at all when retorquing.


Or not.
T_C_D
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Post by T_C_D »

Duke wrote:I had no luck with copper spray.

MAKE SURE THE RA OF YOU NEW HEAD IS BELOW 20!

Hit the block with a razor and check with a straight edge. If block is warped at all, HG will not hold.

Get a new gasket, remove the rivets, spray Hylomar between each layer as you place the gasket layers on the block (in the correct order).

Torque the head properly and retorque after one heat cycle, two days, one week, once month, and repeat until the stud nuts do not move at all when retorquing.


Or not.
My official :roll: for the archives.
Kyle in NO
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Post by Kyle in NO »

Why the hell would you disassemble a MLS headgasket to spray hylomar between the layers? Once you remove the rivets that keep everything in alignment, you're asking for trouble!
Duke
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Post by Duke »

Kyle in NO wrote:Why the hell would you disassemble a MLS headgasket to spray hylomar between the layers? Once you remove the rivets that keep everything in alignment, you're asking for trouble!

Alignment pins in block will keep everything in alignment.

Take it or leave it. Others who claim they know so much are not offering any advice as usual.
T_C_D
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Post by T_C_D »

Duke wrote: Others who claim they know so much are not offering any advice as usual.
There are, in fact, other forms of communication besides posting on this message board!
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