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My maps. Let me show them to you...

Discussion pertaining to positive pressure E28s.
turbodan
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My maps. Let me show them to you...

Post by turbodan »

I finally figured out how the "print screen" function works. There are the latest maps for my turbo car. It runs about 210 kpa and can spike up to 240 in a high gear on spool up. The entries are tuned everywhere in between, and the curves are extrapolated to cover to areas the car doesns usually run.
Image
Thats on of two 16x16 VE tables my MS II code variant supports. I'm just using one right now.
Image
12x12 ignition map. This is the primary table. Note the slight pocket around engine idle speed?
Image
This is how the ignition timing based idle control works. In conjunction with the little dent in the primary table, this keeps things around 800 rpm cold and 850-900 warm. Thats acceptable to me. Its a pretty smooth idle too.
Image
Thats the dimensional plot for the primary VE table. It really helps you visualize the changes youre making, and its good for smoothing out odd spots in the curve. It works really well for stretching the map out past where you usually run, which provides a good margin of safety.

MS II for the win.
griffith
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Post by griffith »

So I'm curious, what injectors are you running and what is your AFR at idle?

I have a feeling the injectors on the 535is I got recently might be so damn big that they're overfueling at idle, but the fact that it has no AFR Target map activity might have something to do with that as well.

Thanks for sharing your info. I'm going to do some datalogs today while I'm out and about and I'll put my MSQ (MSnS 1 Extra) up as well as some screenshots of the various tables, etc.

Jason
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

I'm using 30lb/hr injectors. AFR varies between 14.5 and 16 depending on how much fuel is on the walls. I'm not using EAE because it seems to complicate things greatly unless your tune is right on.

I also have a few exhaust leaks upstream of the 02 sensor, which might affect the reading. It seems to vary a little more than it should. Its steady under boost, so if its not the exhaust leaks it must be very wet intake valves and ports.
M. Holtmeier
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Post by M. Holtmeier »

Thanks for posting the maps, Dan! What kind of duty cycle are your inj's peaking out at. I'm running 60 lb'ers and it seems like my map is pretty flat compared to yours. I think for what I'm holding back at idle, it a miracle it idles as well as it does!
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

They run around and over 100% according to Megalogviewer. I think its safe to say I could use some larger injectors.
Good & Tight
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Post by Good & Tight »

Thats a good amount of advance, is this with pump gas or race fuel?
T_C_D
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Post by T_C_D »

Good & Tight wrote:Thats a good amount of advance, is this with pump gas or race fuel?
Map looks good to me. I ran more timing on the red car.
Good & Tight
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Post by Good & Tight »

T_C_D wrote:
Good & Tight wrote:Thats a good amount of advance, is this with pump gas or race fuel?
Map looks good to me. I ran more timing on the red car.
Yes it looks good, the timing at idle seems a little high or does the M30 need that much? Just basing it off from the M10.
T_C_D
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Post by T_C_D »

Good & Tight wrote:Yes it looks good, the timing at idle seems a little high or does the M30 need that much? Just basing it off from the M10.
That's way too much. I believe he is using another function for idle. m30s like 13-15 degrees at idle.
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

The motor has an 8.5:1 CR, so I cant run quite as much advance as a guy could on a b34. But they also use different combustion chambers and different size bores, so its not just the compression ratio playing into it.

The secondary ignition table is additive. When it falls into the little pocket , its ~20 degrees minus the amount in the particular cell it falls into on the secondary table. Since the primary table has entries for 30 kpa and 50kpa, if the motor is around 40 kpa it uses about 26 degrees advance from the primary table. So with the -10 degrees on the secondary table, it idles around 16 degrees BTDC most of the time, more like 20 degrees when cold, occasionally spiking up over 30 if it begins to drop below 850 rpm. Its a steady idle. It constantly adjusts the timing according to manifold vacuum and engine speed to keep it at that particular spot. It works really well.
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

T_C_D wrote:
Good & Tight wrote:Thats a good amount of advance, is this with pump gas or race fuel?
Map looks good to me. I ran more timing on the red car.
Todd, was the red car an m30b34?

Thanks turbodan for posting the maps!
Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy »

Big Bronze Rim wrote:
T_C_D wrote:
Good & Tight wrote:Thats a good amount of advance, is this with pump gas or race fuel?
Map looks good to me. I ran more timing on the red car.
Todd, was the red car an m30b34?

Thanks turbodan for posting the maps!
Yes. And I'm running more advance than he did on the same car.

Jeremy
Gunni
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Post by Gunni »

turbodan wrote:I'm using 30lb/hr injectors. AFR varies between 14.5 and 16 depending on how much fuel is on the walls. I'm not using EAE because it seems to complicate things greatly unless your tune is right on.

I also have a few exhaust leaks upstream of the 02 sensor, which might affect the reading. It seems to vary a little more than it should. Its steady under boost, so if its not the exhaust leaks it must be very wet intake valves and ports.
exhaust leaks do not change AFR readings.
Just think about it.
Boru
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Post by Boru »

Gunni wrote:
turbodan wrote:I'm using 30lb/hr injectors. AFR varies between 14.5 and 16 depending on how much fuel is on the walls. I'm not using EAE because it seems to complicate things greatly unless your tune is right on.

I also have a few exhaust leaks upstream of the 02 sensor, which might affect the reading. It seems to vary a little more than it should. Its steady under boost, so if its not the exhaust leaks it must be very wet intake valves and ports.
exhaust leaks do not change AFR readings.
Just think about it.
If air is drawn into them they certainly can.
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

Sweeney wrote:
Gunni wrote:
turbodan wrote:I'm using 30lb/hr injectors. AFR varies between 14.5 and 16 depending on how much fuel is on the walls. I'm not using EAE because it seems to complicate things greatly unless your tune is right on.

I also have a few exhaust leaks upstream of the 02 sensor, which might affect the reading. It seems to vary a little more than it should. Its steady under boost, so if its not the exhaust leaks it must be very wet intake valves and ports.
exhaust leaks do not change AFR readings.
Just think about it.
If air is drawn into them they certainly can.
Both Sweeney and Turbodan are correct, an exhaust leak definitely can cause incorrect AFR readings. While it won't change the AFR in the combustion chamber, if you are monitoring it on a wideband it will definitely affect what you think it is.
Russianblue
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screenshots

Post by Russianblue »

FYI,

this is a very cool, free, easy to use screenshot program if any of you are interested. spyware free. FWIW, I've tried bunch of them and this one stands out.

http://www.mirekw.com/winfreeware/mwsnap.html
Maddog
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Post by Maddog »

Your injectors definitely look saturated.
FirstFives Dictator
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Post by FirstFives Dictator »

Maddog wrote:Your injectors definitely look saturated.
I'd want to see his pw's in a log before saying for sure.

80% of 25.4 msec (whatever that is) would be the safe max, IMO
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

FirstFives Dictator wrote:
Maddog wrote:Your injectors definitely look saturated.
I'd want to see his pw's in a log before saying for sure.

80% of 25.4 msec (whatever that is) would be the safe max, IMO
So about 20 ms?

They run quite a bit over that. I think the highest I've seen is about 28.4. I figured it was bad to bury the needle on the PW gauge in Megatune, but I didnt know how bad. I had picked up some larger injectors (42#), but one failed two days after install. So I was back to the 30#'ers again. Maybe I need something even larger. Perhaps a set of 60# injectors is in order...
T_C_D
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Post by T_C_D »

turbodan wrote:
FirstFives Dictator wrote:
Maddog wrote:Your injectors definitely look saturated.
I'd want to see his pw's in a log before saying for sure.

80% of 25.4 msec (whatever that is) would be the safe max, IMO
So about 20 ms?

They run quite a bit over that. I think the highest I've seen is about 28.4. I figured it was bad to bury the needle on the PW gauge in Megatune, but I didnt know how bad. I had picked up some larger injectors (42#), but one failed two days after install. So I was back to the 30#'ers again. Maybe I need something even larger. Perhaps a set of 60# injectors is in order...
I have a set of 37# low impedance injectors that were flowed/cleaned. $200 delivered.
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

I'll see whats going on with the 42# set. I picked them up from some place in Oaklahoma, and they are going to attempt to repair them under warranty. That set cost me 200 bucks too, so I'd like to run them for a little while at least.

I mean, I really like wasting money on things, but I think I'll try to work with the 42#'ers for a little while longer...

I did find it odd that I needed to retune my VE table under boost while the 42 # injectors were in there and functioning. With a correctly adjusted req. fuel value I was still yanking tons of fuel out of the high side of the table.
FirstFives Dictator
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Post by FirstFives Dictator »

turbodan wrote: So about 20 ms?

They run quite a bit over that. I think the highest I've seen is about 28.4. I figured it was bad to bury the needle on the PW gauge in Megatune, but I didnt know how bad. I had picked up some larger injectors (42#), but one failed two days after install. So I was back to the 30#'ers again. Maybe I need something even larger. Perhaps a set of 60# injectors is in order...
Hmm I thought max was 25.4 msec
If you get close to that, you risk latching injectors open and hydrostatically locking the engine.
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

See, thats the information thats so hard to find. I didn't know what could happen if you went past 25.5ms. Maybe I'll go for some 60#'ers. The 42# injectors were pretty close to maxed out already, though I wasnt quite done tuning. They would probably be around 80% at 20 psi.
Gunni
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Post by Gunni »

Sweeney wrote:
Gunni wrote:
turbodan wrote:I'm using 30lb/hr injectors. AFR varies between 14.5 and 16 depending on how much fuel is on the walls. I'm not using EAE because it seems to complicate things greatly unless your tune is right on.

I also have a few exhaust leaks upstream of the 02 sensor, which might affect the reading. It seems to vary a little more than it should. Its steady under boost, so if its not the exhaust leaks it must be very wet intake valves and ports.
exhaust leaks do not change AFR readings.
Just think about it.
If air is drawn into them they certainly can.
How can air be drawn in when there is positive pressure in the exhaust, I will admit at high vacuum there is low pressure and might suck in through the leaking part, but that would have to be high vacuum.
Tomslide50
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Post by Tomslide50 »

How can air be drawn in when there is positive pressure in the exhaust, I will admit at high vacuum there is low pressure and might suck in through the leaking part, but that would have to be high vacuum.
Bernoulli's principle states that when velocity increases, the static pressure at a given point decreases. So when lots of flow is established in the exhaust, air will be pulled in through any leaks. If they are upstream of the o2 sensor, the o2 will pick it up and give false readings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli_effect
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

Its amazing what moving air can do. I've seen a tool that you screw on to your expansion tank and hook up to a compressed air supply that actually pulls a vacuum in the cooling system. It works with the venturi effect. It doesnt make sense, but thats how it works.
slave2school
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Post by slave2school »

That makes sense, a lot of aircraft use this principal to draw extra air through oil coolers and stuff. Piccolo tubes I think.
slave2school
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Post by slave2school »

Hey has anyone heard of this before? http://www.ideasandsolutions.biz/MegaLogViewer/

Looks pretty cool/handy from what I was reading on it.
M. Holtmeier
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Post by M. Holtmeier »

slave2school wrote:Hey has anyone heard of this before? http://www.ideasandsolutions.biz/MegaLogViewer/

Looks pretty cool/handy from what I was reading on it.
I didn't know you had to pay for megalog viewer now? What's going on?
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

From what I gather you can still use it without paying for it, it just asks you to register everytime if you don't. I don't think you lose any functionality though. I figure though that since it works very well, is extremely useful and I know I have spent $20 on stuff that was far less useful, I registered my copy.
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