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Turbo'ing my 633CSi

Discussion pertaining to positive pressure E28s.
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The Don
Posts: 227
Joined: Sep 17, 2007 11:46 PM

Turbo'ing my 633CSi

Post by The Don »

So lately, (since September), my car has been parked in a friends garage. We have been fixing the banged up front end that the PO crashed. Here is a build-up thread if you guys care.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh ... p?t=819878

Recently I was offered a very good dela on a turbo and intercooler, enough to run 7-8psi. A t3/t4 turbo, and a sidemount intercooler from a gti.

If I do go through with this, I am going to have a manifold adapter made, and get all the proper stuff to run the car safely and daily it. I have the 3.3 engine, and my mileage is around 142k. Just want to know your thoughts and inputs.

BTW: I have read through the threads in this section, not looking for exact answers just input.....be nice? :laugh:
Kyle in NO
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Post by Kyle in NO »

You can use my BEGI FMU and 30lb injectors with that! See the FS section..
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

Well, do you want to or not? You seem unsure about it yourself.

Its quite a lot of work making your own turbo kit, but judging by the body work you've done already it looks like you're capable enough to put something together if you want to.

And going by what you mentioned, the side mount intercooler is probably going to be too small and the turbo is probably one of those junkass chinese knock offs. You could probably use the stuff though. If you plan on keeping the car you might want to verify the origins of the turbo or start looking for something thats a little more legitimate.

If the engine doesnt use more than a quart of oil every 800 miles or so, and the rest of the car in generally good condition, its just a matter of what you want to do. 7 or 8 psi will make very good power, and you can make the stock injection work at that power level. It would be worth doing if you do it right.
The Don
Posts: 227
Joined: Sep 17, 2007 11:46 PM

Post by The Don »

Yea I am unsure. But I am more on the turbo side ;) .

Im not worried about all the work, if im not capable, which im probably not, my friends can help. They got experience with turbo's so im not afraid to tackle that.

The engine is pretty solid, nothing wrong with it as far as I can tell.

Im going to take a look at the turbo later on this week, to see if its good or not. As for the intercooler, he said its 8x8, or 10x10. Little guy, but i think it will be good for 7-8psi, until I get a front mount maybe. It will help it look like a sleeper too, just mount it up front, and paint it black.

:evil:

Thanks you guys are real helpful and quick. Any more information on what I should expect, and plan on buying?

PS: Ill get back to you about those injectors kyle.
The Don
Posts: 227
Joined: Sep 17, 2007 11:46 PM

Post by The Don »

So I got the turbo and intercooler yesterday night. Very excited.

The turbo is a Garrett TBO3. Did some research, and it came on some DSM's. Pretty cool little turbo, supposedly capable of 11psi. have not seen or felt any play. Im just trying to run around 8psi.
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The intercooler is from a GTi. The 1.8 model I think.

So I think this setup will be pretty good. I just have questions about the fuel factor of FI. I have the 008 ecu, and I hear its hard as hell to tune. Can someone clear that up, and also tell me about Megasquirt?

Thank you guys.
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

That turbo is going to be waaaay to small for an M30.

What is the compressor wheel inducer diameter? Like 40-45mm? You'll need a lot more than that to feed a 3.2l motor. 11 psi on a 2 liter motor requires a lot less flow than 11 psi on a 3.2. This little guy would make a lot of boost at very low engine speeds but would fall flat on its little face from probably 3k rpm on up.

Check out Garretts website for some basic info:
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... ch103.html

As far as the fuel injection, for up to about 7 psi you can just use the stock injectors and a BEGi 2025 RRFPR. Thats a rising rate fuel pressure regulator that increases fuel pressure relative to manifold pressure. The 3.2l motor has the same injectors as the e28 M5, so they have some flow capacity. You might even be able to run up to 10 psi or so before you start to run into detonation from the stock ignition timing maps. To say the 007/008 ecu's are hard to tune isnt really accurate. They're actually impossible to tune unless you can find somebody that can identify and reprogram the several chips in the ecu that contain the ignition timing and fuel maps. And it would still just be basic motronic running an old school volume air flow sensor.

Megasquirt is tight. It cost me about 500 bucks for an assembled MS II extra ecu. Thats quite expensive relative to what most people pay for them. Do some searching and you can find everything you want to know about it.
Kyle in NO
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Location: Nasty Orleans------> Batten-Rooehjch------>More Souther LA

Post by Kyle in NO »

Yeah, no joke. The DSM Garret turbos are tiny. Find something better suited for the big six. They are almost too small for the 4 cylinder engines they originally came on!
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

For the trouble you are going to go to to make a manifold adapter, downpipe and associated parts, I wouldn't use that turbo either as suggested. It's going to be way to restrictive on the exhaust side and that compressor isn't going to flow nearly enough to warrant the trouble. I'm sure you won't have a hard time selling it to someone with a Honda or the like, but you really should look into something in the t04 compressor family.
The Don
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Post by The Don »

I see. So you guys think it will make little to now power from 3k up? Im not really trying to get it that high in the top end Anyway, low end and in between is fine for me.

What can I do to solve this problem, without getting another turbo?

Im guessing the RRFPR, is there to compensate for the increased pressure in the engine?

BTW, thanks for the input on everything. I will looking into Megasquirt and maybe some alternatives for that.

Maybe I will rn it like this for a little while and see how I like it. Ill look for other possible turbo's too.
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

The Don wrote:I see. So you guys think it will make little to now power from 3k up? Im not really trying to get it that high in the top end Anyway, low end and in between is fine for me.

What can I do to solve this problem, without getting another turbo?
You really can't do anything other than get another turbo. I haven't looked at that turbo's compressor map but I can tell you that all that turbo will do is heat up your intake charge due to severe compressor inefficiency, making your relatively small intercooler useless and you will probably get tons of detonation due to the superheated air. Also, your exhaust backpressure on the small turbine side (remember thsi was a 2.X liter engine in the 80s) will also cause all sorts of issues as well.
Im guessing the RRFPR, is there to compensate for the increased pressure in the engine?
Yes, it increases fuel pressure proportionally to manifold pressure.

If you don't have them already I recommend you read Maximum Boost by Corky Bell and Turbocharging Performance Handbook by Jeff Hartman. They will guide you through your turbo build and help you avoid things like turbos that are too small.
Kyle in NO
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Post by Kyle in NO »

It will choke your engine rather than make any useful power...
The Don
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Post by The Don »

I see. I guess I will look into getting a larger turbo.

BTW these are the A/R ratios of the turbo if it matters.

Compressor side: .52.

Exhaust side: .48.
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

Area to radius ratio of the housing.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobyga ... ch102.html
The Don
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Post by The Don »

So what turbo would you suggest?

Someone recommended me the Holset HX50.
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

A 60 trim T04e is a pretty good fit, generally speaking. Check out Garretts Turbo Tech 103 for a lesson on how to read and plot compression maps, and then you can understand what there is to turbo selection.
The Don
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Post by The Don »

Well I got another turbo. Not necessarily for the 6.

Might sell it if it does not fit the 6.

It is a Garret TV5101, Detroit Diesel turbo. Twin pulse, so it will probably spool a bit quick. .60 A/R on the cold side, and 1.23 on the hot side. 83 Trim.

Its a bit dirty, im probably going to clean, paint, and polish it. Any suggestions on cleaning it.

Supposedly it was running on a 7-series before, have no clue if its true or not. But what do you guys thing, will it fit the 6? If it will I will just keep it, remember running low boost.

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GregATL
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Post by GregATL »

Measure the distance between the bolts on the turbine inlet flange. Post your results. My gut feeling is that is too big for what you've described you want to do. Plus with such a high A/R on the exhaust it is going to spool super slow. As mentioned before you really ought to find a T4 frame size turbo. 60 trim is about where you want to be. 83 trim is more for a big diesel.

This newer turbo has the exact opposite problems of the first one. I admire your willingness to experiment but some things are well known. T4, T04E, T04B, GT40.

As suggested before, get your hands on the books mentioned by Big Bronze Rim. And then study them. We don't mind helping answer your questions but the knowledge you gain from reading those books will help you more than anyone on a forum ever could.
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

Let me guess...ebay?

You would do well to spend a little more and get some legitimate equipment. The turbo and manifold are the core of your system. You dont want to go cheap there. You dont want to have problems with those components down the road.
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

Quickly looking up that turbo revealed that its compressor inducer and exducer and 63 and 93 respectively which is very similar to a GT42, even the housing is similar as well as the hot side. So if you were curious you could use the GT42 maps. The problem is that it is really overkill on the compressor side and will be terribly laggy (if it spools at all) due to the very large AR on the turbine housing. I believe that is a T6 footprint which is waay bigger that anything you really should be running. Please read up some of the books I recommended so you understand the interplay of all the factors that go into turbo sizing and you will be better off and it will save yourself time and money buying turbos that won't work. ;) Plus, just selecting the turbo is only the first part of a very large undertaking when building your own homebrew system.
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

Especially running "low boost", that would be quite unsuitable.
The Don
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Post by The Don »

Yea, i did not buy it off ebay. I bought it to resell it, got it for real cheap so no worries there.

Im still trying to sell the other turbo to buy a proper turbo for the 6.

Just wondering if this would work.

Thanks once again.
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