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Can a TCD manifold flow 550hp...?

Discussion pertaining to positive pressure E28s.
5verflyATL
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Can a TCD manifold flow 550hp...?

Post by 5verflyATL »

Hey,

Last year I bought a TCD manifold, turbo, and blowoff valve. I wanted buy everything else over time. I have decided to take the car to a local shop to have them put the project together. The shop owner told me the he is familiar with TCD and the manifold is to restrictive to and i won't be able to design a reliable 550hp daily driver out of my m30. Is there anyone out there with more than 550hp and using a TCD manifold on a daily driver?
Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy »

First, why such a high goal?

Second, the TCD manifold isn't restrictive at all really. Maybe compared to a tubular style, but the TCD log has plenty of capacity. I wouldn think you'd reach the limits of the m30 intake system and your turbo before you reached the limits of the manifold itself.

Jeremy
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

I don't know if 550hp m30 and daily driver really go in the same sentence. As to whether or not the manifold will get to 550, it probably will get you there, but like Jeremy said, you will have all other sort of inlet constipation to deal with. Having a shop do all of this for you is going to be hellaciously expensive, but best of luck with your project.
SpongeBob
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My $.02 worth...

Post by SpongeBob »

Hey 5verflyATL -

This is strictly my opinion - so to the peanut gallery - please insert your favorite disclaimer, like 'SBSP drinks alot", "SBSP recently bumped his head really hard" or "SBSP's mother didn't breast feed him" -

BUT the issue is not the exhaust manifold - the issue is your HP target or your M30 - one of them needs to be changed.

As a general rule of thumb +/- 10% for every 14.7 lbs of boost your double your NA HP for a well designed turbo system. To hit a 550 hp target, you would need to take a fresh 180 hp M30 and run 30 lbs of boost - and that would require alot of $$.

To get 550 hp out of your M30 and still have a decent reliable street car - you need to get it to 250 hp NA (not as easy as it sounds - compression, cam, headwork, exhaust), then run 17 lbs of boost. The issue is, you are starting with a engine that has 180hp (stock) and are looking to run a ton of boost. Regardless what your mechnic is saying - I am pretty sure no fancy manifold will get you there.

My suggestion - build your turbo system with the manifold you have, freshen up the M30, add late model cam for B35, pay attention big time to cooling (water, oil and pressurized air), get good adjustable engine management, start with a conservative tune and then tinker from there. In the end you will have a 350 to 400 hp reliable daily driver that will show the tail lights to 98% of the cars out there. :banana:

I hope this helps.

Good luck.

SBSP
M. Holtmeier
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Re: Can a TCD manifold flow 550hp...?

Post by M. Holtmeier »

5verflyATL wrote: The shop owner told me the he is familiar with TCD and the manifold is to restrictive to and i won't be able to design a reliable 550hp daily driver out of my m30.
Obviously, the owner is not familiar with TCD.
Duke
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Re: Can a TCD manifold flow 550hp...?

Post by Duke »

5verflyATL wrote:Is there anyone out there with more than 550hp and using a TCD manifold on a daily driver?
No.

Research Log turbo manifolds and Tubular turbo manifolds.

Also research turboing a 2 valve head vs. a 4 valve head.

You will find your answers.
Kyle in NO
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Post by Kyle in NO »

A 400hp TCD 535i is capable of running a 12.0 second 1/4 mile time...do you need it to be faster than that? The stock driveline will likely not stand up to it and it will certainly not be suitable for daily driving in that state of tune....

Also, that is with slicks and slipping the hell out of the clutch. Exactly how do you propose to put the extra 150 hp to the ground? You won't realistically even be able to use it...

Like others have said, the TCD manifold won't be your restriction if you want to get to that power level...
Duke
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Post by Duke »

One more thing.

The Supra guys running tubular manifolds, DOHC 4 valve heads, big turbos, 30+ psi and race gas are in the 550-600+ HP range. They break all the time too.

You will never get there with a M30. Be very happy with 300-400 hp and that will be breaking lots of stuff as has been pointed out.

You want to see how to get 550+ HP in a E28, search for Ken H.'s car. Bring $70K too.
FirstFives Dictator
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Post by FirstFives Dictator »

Duke wrote:One more thing.

The Supra guys running tubular manifolds, DOHC 4 valve heads, big turbos, 30+ psi and race gas are in the 550-600+ HP range. They break all the time too.

You will never get there with a M30. Be very happy with 300-400 hp and that will be breaking lots of stuff as has been pointed out.

You want to see how to get 550+ HP in a E28, search for Ken H.'s car. Bring $70K too.
I partially agree.

I think you can get there, but you'll end up with a car that isn't really a daily driver anymore.

The big problem is shooting for 'bragging rights' peak HP instead of a decently shaped torque curve which the TCD manifold seems to be able to deliver at peak tq in excess of 400. It's the area under the tq curve that accelerates the car.

In my mind, no one should be comparing HP. Pissing contest should be nothing but posted timing slips IMO.

My NA car dyno'd at 158hp RWHP. Yet for a bone stock b34, it accelerates well. Reason is the area under the curve. I could have put 3" exhooassed and gotten a larger peak HP # at the expense of a lot of low to mid range torque. And ended up with a car that I had to wind the crap out of and beat the piston rings gaps to hell, to get anywhere.

Image

note the torque at 2200 rpm.
Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy »

Is your cam worn out, Peter? That thing NEVER comes on cam! Beautiful torque curve though. :D

Jeremy
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Post by FirstFives Dictator »

Jeremy wrote:Is your cam worn out, Peter? That thing NEVER comes on cam! Beautiful torque curve though. :D

Jeremy
No, Bosal exhaust.

Very restrictive

Actually it does come on the cam. Just below the 'o' and 'r' in Torque.

:laugh:
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

I dont know if that exhaust is actually hurting anything. The numbers look like factory spec to me. Great torque too. Maybe it just helped the bottom end power so it looks like it never comes on cam.
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Post by FirstFives Dictator »

turbodan wrote:I dont know if that exhaust is actually hurting anything. The numbers look like factory spec to me. Great torque too. Maybe it just helped the bottom end power so it looks like it never comes on cam.
Take a look at these dyno day results
1st one is bug pistons at about 9:1 3.6L.
there are 2 other b34 motors and Eric Quon's 530i bringing up the rear

http://www.firstfives.org/dynoday.html
turbodan
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Post by turbodan »

Neat charts. Looks like the 3.6l could use a bigger cam.
rundatrack
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Post by rundatrack »

Duke wrote:One more thing.

The Supra guys running tubular manifolds, DOHC 4 valve heads, big turbos, 30+ psi and race gas are in the 550-600+ HP range. They break all the time too.

You will never get there with a M30. Be very happy with 300-400 hp and that will be breaking lots of stuff as has been pointed out.

You want to see how to get 550+ HP in a E28, search for Ken H.'s car. Bring $70K too.

Why would you have to?

Turbo Cam
Forged Bottom
Of course head goodies....springs.....and such
And autronic or better tuning......
Big injectors..blah blah blah


Why so much

Its attainable but would ti be fun...I dont think so
bimmerboy
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Re: My $.02 worth...

Post by bimmerboy »

SpongeBob wrote:Hey 5verflyATL -

This is strictly my opinion - so to the peanut gallery - please insert your favorite disclaimer, like 'SBSP drinks alot", "SBSP recently bumped his head really hard" or "SBSP's mother didn't breast feed him" -

BUT the issue is not the exhaust manifold - the issue is your HP target or your M30 - one of them needs to be changed.

As a general rule of thumb +/- 10% for every 14.7 lbs of boost your double your NA HP for a well designed turbo system. To hit a 550 hp target, you would need to take a fresh 180 hp M30 and run 30 lbs of boost - and that would require alot of $$.

To get 550 hp out of your M30 and still have a decent reliable street car - you need to get it to 250 hp NA (not as easy as it sounds - compression, cam, headwork, exhaust), then run 17 lbs of boost. The issue is, you are starting with a engine that has 180hp (stock) and are looking to run a ton of boost. Regardless what your mechnic is saying - I am pretty sure no fancy manifold will get you there.

My suggestion - build your turbo system with the manifold you have, freshen up the M30, add late model cam for B35, pay attention big time to cooling (water, oil and pressurized air), get good adjustable engine management, start with a conservative tune and then tinker from there. In the end you will have a 350 to 400 hp reliable daily driver that will show the tail lights to 98% of the cars out there. :banana:

I hope this helps.

Good luck.

SBSP
That rule of thumb makes no sense to me. 30psi on a hair dryer t3 will not make 550whp.. But I'm sure with a big enough turbo you could make it at about 20ish psi. There are guys running 500+ on m30s quite frequently, just not in the us. And they aren't $70k+ systems. Are they refined, flawless and OEM spec? No, but if you're that much of a hp junkie you don't really care. I'd bet you could make a 500whp car with b35, a cam, good turbo and standalone. Would you beable to run 500 daily? Hell no, turn it down to about 9psi for daily stuff and save the crazy boost for the dyno.
SpongeBob
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Good point...

Post by SpongeBob »

Bimmerboy - you are correct, you can not get there with a small turbo - I stand corrected.

I don't know of anyone pulling 500hp out of M30, but I am sure there are those that have - like the gentleman in South Florida with the boosted e34 - I think that thing is a real monster.

Thanks

SBSP
Steve in No Va
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Post by Steve in No Va »

If you are purely interested in HP, you need the M30B35, a big turbo, a hotter cam, like a 272, alloy pistons and connecting rods, and a stand alone fuel management system. Get the FM set it so that it makes power late and set the rev limit over 7,000 RPM. You may get there, only because you would be milking the equation for horsepower, kind of like the new M3 V8 and M5 V10. They make big HP because they can rev to 8,000+ rpm, where the HP is nearly double the torque. What makes these engines great is the extended and flat torque curve, even though the M3 hits less than 300lb/ft and the M5 hits 390lb/ft of torque at the flywheel.

If you get to the level you want, the car won't be drivable because you would have to give up low end power. This makes you look like an idiot at every stoplight because you have to either rev to 3,500 and chirp the tires to get the car to move, or bog down and stall the car. Also, it will never be reliable or fun set up like this. These engines are great fun bone stock with the TCD S2 kit and 8 to 15lbs of boost. I've had a blast with mine at only 8lbs of boost.
Ken H.
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Post by Ken H. »

I think a few comments are in order here.

"You will never get there with a M30. Be very happy with 300-400 hp and that will be breaking lots of stuff as has been pointed out.

You want to see how to get 550+ HP in a E28, search for Ken H.'s car. Bring $70K too."

Hmmmm. Not entirely true. Paul built an M30 for a guy in CT that went ~620 or so. This used a GT-35 and a much-modified TCD log manifold. The manifold had the interior mucho cleaned up; don't know if this was by extrude honing or by die grinder. The intake manifold was also opened up and it had PB's magic worked on the head.

Paul told me he applied a lot of what he had put into practice on my engine when he did this one. So is 550 doable? I think so. I ran the #s thru the Not2Fast model. It will work with a T-61 turbo @ 15 psi, but I suspect that it will need to use the large (47mm) intake valves and a fair amount of cleanup on the ports.

I believe 5erflyATL needs to research the 666 fabrication manifolds before going any further. FWIW, Paul thinks Jon Volk's product for the M30 has real merit and saved him having to make jigs and do the fab. work himself.

As to Duke's $70 K number. It is not correct per se., as in the course of my build we went down a number of blind avenues with related $ being written off. While Duke and I discussed the $$ aspects of the LH build, a lot of the outlays went into the brakes, suspension, etc. This gets discussed in my "Lucifer's Hammer" series, Part 11 in particular.

Not to blow my own horn, but if one goes back and rereads the remarks I made in "Lucifer's Hammer, Part 11," I noted that I think I could have reduced the actual build hours by somewhere around 50% and the parts cost by 20 to 25% if no mistakes had been made. By "mistakes" here I mean ideas that were tried and didn't work out. Call it R & D if you will; pioneers get arrows in the back as part of their reward.

Some less-than-well-informed people may scoff at the cost, but I challenge these worthies to replicate what was done using the exact same components and resources.
Example: the exhaust system was first done as an in-car mockup out of electrical conduit to see if we could even get close. Next, the flow requirements were mathematically modeled, then the mockup dimensions and the math were compiled into a hydrodynamics software package. Then this was run through a Cray-2 at a prominent southern university's engineering school. Not a one-pass deal, but numerous hours through one of the more powerful supercomputers in the US. This time had to be bought, BTW.
The results gave us a number of possibilities for the dimensions, based on the hydrodynamics of the compressible fluid (exhaust gases). This allowed us to determine what the tradeoffs were.
That being done, decisions were made regarding what materials to use for the exhaust port-to-turbine part of the exhaust. First choice was Inconel. Very difficult to work with, stupid expensive (more expensive per ounce than silver), but superlative high temp characteristics. Second choice, 321 stainless. Expensive, hard to get in the desired tubing dimensions; fabrication to acceptable quality standards requires someone with Navy nuclear welding certification skills.

Care to guess what this cost? I ain't telling, but I'm here to tell ya it wasn't beer money.


If one is truly serious about looking at a 550 HP M30 in an E28 chassis, there are a number of areas which will drive up the cost--truly sufficient brakes, a complete upgrading/rebuild on the suspension, ditto on the driveline (everything aft of the flywheel). IMHO Duke is correct in that 350-400 hp will be more than sufficient to get your attention. But not addressing the suspension, brakes and driveline as essential pieces of the project borders on criminal negligence--and might be seen as such by the court in the event of a catastrophe.

So what to do? Deal with the essentials first. Complete suspension refresh. Appropriate brake upgrade. Driveline, including a rebuild on the trans, fresh driveshaft, rebuild on the diff--the LSD will not live, I assure you, if the clutch packs have any kind of wear. Thus, with the items which will keep you and your passengers alive in perfect shape, along with getting the power to the ground, the remains of your bank account can go into the motor. ;)

If you want clean, crisp, fresh oats you must be prepared to pay a fair price for them. If you can be happy with oats that have been through the horse, that comes a little cheaper. :laugh:
bimmerboy
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Re: Good point...

Post by bimmerboy »

SpongeBob wrote:Bimmerboy - you are correct, you can not get there with a small turbo - I stand corrected.

I don't know of anyone pulling 500hp out of M30, but I am sure there are those that have - like the gentleman in South Florida with the boosted e34 - I think that thing is a real monster.

Thanks

SBSP

There used to be a guy on this board from a scandi country, finland maybe, he had 617hp from a stock internal m30 and i think an b35 head and performance cam. It was in an e30, and the most i saw of it was the ebay intercooler, so i'm just guessing it was a pretty diy thing. But at 26psi it could run a ~10.5, and if the motor went he said he would just throw another in. Probably part why he kept it stock, some guys just run em till the die, and so you might as well keep it cheap.

Over all these motors are rocks, and pretty efficient(especially with the b35 head, and some modern electronics).
Duke
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Re: Good point...

Post by Duke »

bimmerboy wrote: There used to be a guy on this board from a scandi country, finland maybe, he had 617hp from a stock internal m30 and i think an b35 head and performance cam.
Forgot about him. He had a tubular manifold with a large top mount turbo. I am willing to bet the car did not last long.
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

Ken H. wrote: So what to do? Deal with the essentials first. Complete suspension refresh. Appropriate brake upgrade. Driveline, including a rebuild on the trans, fresh driveshaft, rebuild on the diff--the LSD will not live, I assure you, if the clutch packs have any kind of wear. Thus, with the items which will keep you and your passengers alive in perfect shape, along with getting the power to the ground, the remains of your bank account can go into the motor. ;)

If you want clean, crisp, fresh oats you must be prepared to pay a fair price for them. If you can be happy with oats that have been through the horse, that comes a little cheaper. :laugh:
Ken,

Regarding the diff: is there a reason you didn't go with a Quaife in your application? It would seem that even with multiple discs, a clutch-type LSD just isn't gonna last long behind 700 lb-ft.

-tammer
Ken H.
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Post by Ken H. »

Tammer, I did use a Quaife. As a matter of fact I got the last one available for the big diff case; this thru Brett Anderson @ Koala Motorsports.

My comment was directed at 5erflyATL, knowing this to be the availability situation.
5verflyATL
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Post by 5verflyATL »

Hey guys,

Thanks for the input, I appreciate the advice. To show I'm not completely ignorant of the subject I'll tell you my whole plan. Tell me if it is possible. I plan to bore the block to a 3.8 get JE pistons, an efficient air to water intercooler TCD's if it will work (something that will allow me to maintain a short path from the turbo to the intake). I plan to run megasquirt and feel the stock m30 head is fine under boost so I see no need for modifying besides headstuds. I also understand that I am going to have to get a bigger turbo. The manifold is powder coated so it is suppose to be very efficient. I know this setup is capable of high output but, will it allow me to have a reliable 500+hp??

As far as why I want a 500+ hp e28, my bimmer will be much more than than just power...its a vision 4yrs in the making.
chrism
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Post by chrism »

Yepp It is possible. Go to it :beer:
5verflyATL wrote:Hey guys,

Thanks for the input, I appreciate the advice. To show I'm not completely ignorant of the subject I'll tell you my whole plan. Tell me if it is possible. I plan to bore the block to a 3.8 get JE pistons, an efficient air to water intercooler TCD's if it will work (something that will allow me to maintain a short path from the turbo to the intake). I plan to run megasquirt and feel the stock m30 head is fine under boost so I see no need for modifying besides headstuds. I also understand that I am going to have to get a bigger turbo. The manifold is powder coated so it is suppose to be very efficient. I know this setup is capable of high output but, will it allow me to have a reliable 500+hp??

As far as why I want a 500+ hp e28, my bimmer will be much more than than just power...its a vision 4yrs in the making.
clevertd
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Post by clevertd »

raceaddic
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Re: Good point...

Post by raceaddic »

Duke wrote:
bimmerboy wrote: There used to be a guy on this board from a scandi country, finland maybe, he had 617hp from a stock internal m30 and i think an b35 head and performance cam.
Forgot about him. He had a tubular manifold with a large top mount turbo. I am willing to bet the car did not last long.
my car has now run 1429 miles with no problems (except 2 gearboxes) :lol: just regular oil change stock M30B35 engine with some small mods, Cam and ported head and after market engine management, run 11.64@1/4mile with 130 mile trap speed

think i can answer most of the questions you can come up with about M30 and M106-M102 :D
Tammer in Philly
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Post by Tammer in Philly »

Ken H. wrote:Tammer, I did use a Quaife. As a matter of fact I got the last one available for the big diff case; this thru Brett Anderson @ Koala Motorsports.

My comment was directed at 5erflyATL, knowing this to be the availability situation.
:-) Shows you how well I retain the details of what I read! Good choice, both with the type of diff and the source.

-tammer
Jeremy
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Post by Jeremy »

5verflyATL wrote:Tell me if it is possible. I plan to bore the block to a 3.8 get JE pistons
With maximum boring, you'll only get to around 3.6L. You'll need the s38b38 crank to get 3.8L, and that's with bore sizes that leave very little wall between the cylinders. I'm not sure how much is required for safety at your planned power level, but you might want to consider a custom crank or lowering your displacement goal a bit. I'd think 3.7L would leave plenty of wall if you used the s38b36 or b38 crank.
an efficient air to water intercooler TCD's if it will work (something that will allow me to maintain a short path from the turbo to the intake).
IIRC, Todd said his intercooler could support 500rwhp. Make sure you have the capacity in the system (coolant capacity, water exchangers, etc) to keep the intercooler system cool.
I plan to run megasquirt and feel the stock m30 head is fine under boost so I see no need for modifying besides headstuds. I also understand that I am going to have to get a bigger turbo. The manifold is powder coated so it is suppose to be very efficient. I know this setup is capable of high output but, will it allow me to have a reliable 500+hp??
I'm not sure about this. I think the stock b34 is poor choice, the stock b35 head might be able to do it though. Flow bench testing will tell you for sure. It'll be easier to reach your goals if you do some work on the intake side though.
As far as why I want a 500+ hp e28, my bimmer will be much more than than just power...its a vision 4yrs in the making.
Good luck.

Jeremy
chrism
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Post by chrism »

I understand this car/engine combination has never been on a dyno.
Wheres the graph?
Ken H. wrote: Hmmmm. Not entirely true. Paul built an M30 for a guy in CT that went ~620 or so. This used a GT-35 and a much-modified TCD log manifold.
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