Anyone has experience with upgraded KKK k27 turbos?

[Golosok]

Hello,
I'm looking to upgrade turbo on my E24 M30 turbo engine.
Right now I have K27 from M106.
I'm looking at two options:
http://www.turbochargingdynamics.com/pr ... _Turbo.php

And

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Upgraded ... ccessories

Does anyone have experience with any of these turbos?

Thanks,
Alex

[Scottinva]

Those turbos come on the Gumpert apollo, which is awesome. So therefore those turbos must be as well.

[russc]

Any newer modern turbo will be better then the old one, IMHO.
Thell spool quicker and flow better with less charge heating.
RussC

[Jeremy]

I don't think I've seen a dyno graph with a curly-cue in it before. And look at the AFR as it approaches the rev limiter!!

If that's what they use for advertising material, I wouldn't be inclined to buy from them. Contact Todd at TCD, he'll be able to get you the turbo and advise you on any adjustments/upgrades you might need to make to keep the motor from grenading after you install the upgraded turbo.

[Golosok]

2 russc:
Running modern turbo might require changes to manifold, downpipe, wastegate, turbo flange...
Besides I have 745i manifold setup on E24 635 CSi and I already had to cut pillar next to shock housing in the engine compartment to get the turbo in. Any bigger turbo will require even more modification. I like bottom mounted turbo, because thurbocharging NA car is illegal in my part of the world.

2 Jeremy:
You're right, about AFR. This was probably dynoed on stock M30 motor. Actually it looks encouraging, if this turbo can povide better results with such shitty tuning, imagine what it will do with good one
However nobody will help me with other (tuning/fueling) upgrades. Without going in too much details I'm probably the only one running such fuel/spark management system in the world on M30. So I'm only interested in infoirmation about turbo itself.

[Scottinva]

That power output is garbage for how much work, effort and money you would put in. That tune is stupid too.

[demetk]

Hello,
I'm looking to upgrade turbo on my E24 M30 turbo engine.
Right now I have K27 from M106.
I'm looking at two options:
http://www.turbochargingdynamics.com/pr ... _Turbo.php

And

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Upgraded ... ccessories

Does anyone have experience with any of these turbos?

Thanks,
Alex

I'm pretty sure the ebay listing is from Dave @ eCarToys.com. He's is a trustworthy sponsor at http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/e23/. Others there may be using his turbo in their 745's. Supposedly, that turbo is in my e34 but I haven't had a chance to check yet. I've bought a number of things from him.

[ecartoys]

LOL. I deserved the comments here on the dyno as I did not include any explaination on the AFR on the auction listing.

The AFR reading was not working at the dyno shop. The actual AFR reading on my AEM wideband was at 10.2 on the dyno runs. There are more details on the dyno run here - http://bmwturbos.scottiesharpe.com/topi ... IC_ID=5266

Anyway, the 10.2 was a result of ignition coil wire and 2 spark wires out of spec. It was running fine at high 11 elevens before. It was a hasty trip out to get the dyno but I just wanted to see what the baseline difference is before I took the MAF kit off. The other reason is to see how well the power curve moved down compared to the stock K27 turbo.

David

[Shadow]

http://www.bimmerboard.com/forums/e23/.

Off topic, but that is a HORRIBLE lay out.
It hurts to browse.

[Scottinva]

I vote for hx40 with 16cm hotside.

[turbodan]

I vote for hx40 with 16cm hotside.

Is that what you run?

[Scottinva]

You can put a k-27, just seems a bit small . I tried plotting it and I got that it was running out of steam around 4500 running with 12psi which I thought was moderate. Any less boost, and the problem seems to get worse. The hx40 with the smaller exhaust housing seemed to plot the best for a nice long powerband. For the price that is, i'm sure overall there are better choices. I guess it depends what you are looking for. The k-27 I presume is great for daily driving.

[turbodan]

But is that what you run? On your e28?

[T_C_D]

You can put a k-27, just seems a bit small . I tried plotting it and I got that it was running out of steam around 4500 running with 12psi which I thought was moderate. Any less boost, and the problem seems to get worse. The hx40 with the smaller exhaust housing seemed to plot the best for a nice long powerband. For the price that is, i'm sure overall there are better choices. I guess it depends what you are looking for. The k-27 I presume is great for daily driving.

Scott,

Don't take this the wrong way but it's not always helpful to dispense advise without any practical experience. In fact it's rarely helpful.

The k27 is total crap. It's so laggy that you can actually start counting before it finally spools up. It sucks for daily driving.

Swapping in a 60 trim compressor wheel like we do is the best hope of making it tolerable and at least giving it the capacity to produce power.

Todd

[Scottinva]

I was just doing it to practice, but I get your point. I was looking at a 60trim at any rate. Also the thing about the hx40 is I have seen it work on multiple m30's and have seen dyno, and have plotted it. So while I do not have a turbocharged m30, it seems to work very well on that engine, which is why I suggested it. I can't see paying such high money for that k-27 turbo, sorry.

[Golosok]

You can put a k-27, just seems a bit small . I tried plotting it and I got that it was running out of steam around 4500 running with 12psi which I thought was moderate. Any less boost, and the problem seems to get worse. The hx40 with the smaller exhaust housing seemed to plot the best for a nice long powerband. For the price that is, i'm sure overall there are better choices. I guess it depends what you are looking for. The k-27 I presume is great for daily driving.

Scott,

Don't take this the wrong way but it's not always helpful to dispense advise without any practical experience. In fact it's rarely helpful.

The k27 is total crap. It's so laggy that you can actually start counting before it finally spools up. It sucks for daily driving.

Swapping in a 60 trim compressor wheel like we do is the best hope of making it tolerable and at least giving it the capacity to produce power.

Todd

I agree on the lag part with K-27, which is why i want to repalce mine to upgraded one.
But it surely doesn't run out of steam. I'm pushing 1.5 bar right to 6k RPM with standard K-27 in my car right now. Good standalone management, correct tuning, cold spark plugs and high octane gasoline can do magic with this turbo setup.
The reason I'm looking to upgrade is that this car is my daily driver and I want less lag for better drivability,
And of course the other reason is that my turbo started to develop pretty bad oil leak.

[BATESY]

just installed the k27-60 trim from todd on ms1. i love it, comes in fast and holds boost.

BATES

[cvillebimmer]

just installed the k27-60 trim from todd on ms1. i love it, comes in fast and holds boost.

BATES

I can second that. Boost comes in quick, too bad M1.3 takes an eternity to figure out what to do with it. It's oddly amusing to see 9psi on the boost gauge and feel next to nothing in the butt-dyno. Can't wait to go MS.

[Scottinva]

just installed the k27-60 trim from todd on ms1. i love it, comes in fast and holds boost.

BATES

I can second that. Boost comes in quick, too bad M1.3 takes an eternity to figure out what to do with it. It's oddly amusing to see 9psi on the boost gauge and feel next to nothing in the butt-dyno. Can't wait to go MS.

I thought you were planning on doing that a while ago. I'm finally getting mine where i'm really happy.

[cvillebimmer]

just installed the k27-60 trim from todd on ms1. i love it, comes in fast and holds boost.

BATES

I can second that. Boost comes in quick, too bad M1.3 takes an eternity to figure out what to do with it. It's oddly amusing to see 9psi on the boost gauge and feel next to nothing in the butt-dyno. Can't wait to go MS.

I thought you were planning on doing that a while ago. I'm finally getting mine where i'm really happy.

In time it will happen. I have some more important things to take care of first. Besides, the car isn't going to see the streets until the salt has washed away.

[marc79euro645]

I'm glad to hear you like the 60 trim.
could you look at a datalog & post some RPM,gear,when you cross into boost. I'd like to compare them with my #'s.
My kkk hits like a sledgehammer about 4000 rpm, now that I finally found a clutch that can take it (clutchmasters ceramic) I've managed to break the tires loose at about 60 mph, kinda scary. I'd prefer something that starts boosting sooner,& maybe does'nt hit so hard all at once.
thanks
marc

[joemadoo]

I purchased an upgraded turbo from Dave at ecartoys and it's a HUGE improvement over a stock k27. Worth the money in IMO if you already have 745i turbo parts on your m30.

[ecartoys]

I purchased an upgraded turbo from Dave at ecartoys and it's a HUGE improvement over a stock k27. Worth the money in IMO if you already have 745i turbo parts on your m30.

Thanks Joe for the nod.

Just so we are clear on the upgrades, our turbo DOES NOT use a 60 trim wheel. We use a larger and lighter wheel that flows 60lb/min and effectively move the power curve 1200RPM earlier. There is also no turbo lag on a properly exhausted setup. Our housing is machined extensively inside and out to properly flow the larger wheel for fast spool.

[T_C_D]

I purchased an upgraded turbo from Dave at ecartoys and it's a HUGE improvement over a stock k27. Worth the money in IMO if you already have 745i turbo parts on your m30.

Thanks Joe for the nod.

We use a larger and lighter wheel that flows 60lb/min and effectively move the power curve 1200RPM earlier. There is also no turbo lag on a properly exhausted setup.

I would love for you to post some technical details about this magic compressor wheel.

[marc79euro645]

heres a baseline from my 84 m106 using m102 intake with #55 injectors (from tcd),stock kkk k27, 3" exhaust, m102 waste gate using spring only, megasquirt2
my first gear crosses atmospheric at 3013rpm then peaked at 6033 at 22#.
second gear starts boost at 3959 rpm,then flutters btween 17# &21# to 6000rpm
third gear boosts at 3686 rpm builds to 20# at 4261rpm fluttering from 19#- to 20# until I lifted about 5000 rpm
I'd love the boost to come on sooner
my math shows the k27 with an a/r of 9, compressor trim40
somebody post some 60 trim #s so we can compare
thanks
marc

[George]

Fuck thats terrible. That makes the 60-1 look golden.

[George]

heres a baseline from my 84 m106 using m102 intake with #55 injectors (from tcd),stock kkk k27, 3" exhaust, m102 waste gate using spring only, megasquirt2
my first gear crosses atmospheric at 3013rpm then peaked at 6033 at 22#.
second gear starts boost at 3959 rpm,then flutters btween 17# &21# to 6000rpm
third gear boosts at 3686 rpm builds to 20# at 4261rpm fluttering from 19#- to 20# until I lifted about 5000 rpm
I'd love the boost to come on sooner
my math shows the k27 with an a/r of 9, compressor trim40
somebody post some 60 trim #s so we can compare
thanks
marc

I'll post some up in AM if someone doesn't beat me to it.

[T_C_D]

heres a baseline from my 84 m106 using m102 intake with #55 injectors (from tcd),stock kkk k27, 3" exhaust, m102 waste gate using spring only, megasquirt2
my first gear crosses atmospheric at 3013rpm then peaked at 6033 at 22#.
second gear starts boost at 3959 rpm,then flutters btween 17# &21# to 6000rpm
third gear boosts at 3686 rpm builds to 20# at 4261rpm fluttering from 19#- to 20# until I lifted about 5000 rpm
I'd love the boost to come on sooner
my math shows the k27 with an a/r of 9, compressor trim40
somebody post some 60 trim #s so we can compare
thanks
marc

My 60 trim made 18psi at 3000rpm on the dyno in 4th gear with a 2.93 diff.

[ecartoys]

I would love for you to post some technical details about this magic compressor wheel.

We made 3 revisions on our upgraded BMW K27 turbo with the 60 trim wheel being the first version 4 years ago. For obvious reasons I can't post any more details on this final version. Our dyno result clearly shows the power curve peaking over 1200RPM earlier than stock dyno result.

Just so there is an understanding of how extensive the mods are, we applied the same mods to the Porsche turbo and here are the details of the compressor maps and comparison pic.



This is a pic of the raw compressor wheel. It still needs a LOT of machining, weight reducing and balancing before being fitted to the machined and modified turbo housing.




[/img]

[T_C_D]

You are machining a compressor wheel? That seems crazy considering the engineering behind wheels produced by Garrett and others!

Not sure what dyno. Do you have a dyno sheet with boost logged and the only change being the compressor wheel?

Here are a picture of a stock BMW k27 and one with the 60mm Garrett wheel.

The compressor cover, backing plate and shaft are all machined to accept the wheel. Not rocket science. No secrets.