Cost of an S38 Rebuild vs. ???

[ianwood]

My motor is tired. I took the risk of buying a car based on the description from the PO without comp/leak down and well, I guess I am going to pay for it! Leaking past the rings on two cylinders - one is pretty bad, cross hatching is completely gone. So there's a bottom end rebuild in this motor's future and given the state of the bottom I would venture to guess the top end will equally be in need of refreshing e.g. guides, etc.

In evaluating this rather depressing news, I have identified two options so far that are worth consideration:

Option 1: Full Rebuild
I have neither the skill nor the equipment to do this depth of work myself and would leave it to the professionals. I would assume around 4k for the top end and maybe a little more for the bottom end. And while the chain looks great, the rails look like crap and so add another 1k for cleaning that up. All in, I'd guess around $10k.

Option 2: (putting my flame suit on for this one) S54 Transplant
Sacrilegious as it may be to pull the S38 in favor of an S54, I wasn't expecting to have such a tired motor. Nor did I fully appreciate the high cost of the S38. Both make the extra HP of the S54 look pretty attractive. After a fair bit of searching, I haven't seen evidence of an E24/E28 S54 transplant though there is an E12 and many E30s/E36s. Lots to consider but looks doable for not much more than rebuilding the S38.

[mooseheadm5]

Option 1 will cost less than $10k if you send it off to the right place, and you'll probably be able to coax more power out of it if you are willing to spend that much (hotter cams, HC pistons, etc.) Check out M5BB's car. I don't know how much he spent, but it had to be around that.

Option 2 will cost more than $10k if you do it right. You haven't searched enough. There is someone doing the swap right now in an E28.

[Nicke28]

You might be interested in this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-E34- ... 0648052208

Cheaper than a full rebuild and easier to swap in than a S54.

[1st 5er]

All you'd need would be the wiring harness and ECU.
I don't see those listed in the ad.

$orry to hear of your trouble.
PPIs are a bit of a pain, but in certain ca$e$, it's worth the trouble.

[Rich Euro M5]

Get in contact with "igotbank" , he has a good S38B35 For Sale. If it's still available, I'd say about $4k will get it sent to your door.

Good Luck

Rich

[ianwood]

You might be interested in this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-E34- ... 0648052208

Cheaper than a full rebuild and easier to swap in than a S54.

Interesting! So what exactly do I need here? From what I can tell, I'd need the DME, harness, plenum and motor mount adapter. Is everything else plug and play (pray)? Much easier than the S54 and only 15HP less.

[Nicke28]

You might be interested in this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-E34- ... 0648052208

Cheaper than a full rebuild and easier to swap in than a S54.

Interesting! So what exactly do I need here? From what I can tell, I'd need the DME, harness, plenum and motor mount adapter. Is everything else plug and play (pray)? Much easier than the S54 and only 15HP less.

Without ever having done this swap I'll just go out on a limb and say the motor should drop in and bolt up to the transmission. I don't see why not. So then most of your work will be the electronics. Good thing is this swap has been done before a few different times, so its not like you will be reinventing the wheel like a e24/s54 swap would be.

[Rich Euro M5]

You might be interested in this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-E34- ... 0648052208

Cheaper than a full rebuild and easier to swap in than a S54.

Interesting! So what exactly do I need here? From what I can tell, I'd need the DME, harness, plenum and motor mount adapter. Is everything else plug and play (pray)? Much easier than the S54 and only 15HP less.

I believe the eBay seller, "bennetts22", is a member of MyE28.com. You should send him a PM expressing your interest in his engine.

Rich

[WilNJ]

Just to be clear, does he "need" the electronics, or just that he has to swap them over from his existing car as long as he goes with the B35? The B36 is a different story.

Also, to the OP, don't forget that your existing S38, has some value that will offset your costs. Of course I have no idea what that might be, but I'm sure there's someone on the board that would throw you a number for it.

[igotbank]

Get in contact with "igotbank" , he has a good S38B35 For Sale. If it's still available, I'd say about $4k will get it sent to your door.

Good Luck

Rich

rich, thanks for that. I've always looked/researched your ads to help me with my other e28 m5.

Ianwood: I have a similar setup as m5bb. the only thing i didn't do was have the HC pistons etc installed because i was on a very limited budget. Mario L at vsr1.com did a great job taking care of all the s38b35's preventative maintenance. They also installed euro headers, his high flow cats, jb flywheel, miller maf, stebro exhaust, s38b36 stock cams and dinan sways. this was a few years ago. it costed about 7k, there was other work done to my 122k e28 m5. I'm very happy with the work and have noticable power gains.

About my low mileage spare s36b35: it has 40k stress free carfax documented miles and is currently store on a pallet wrapped in plastic. I had a buyer(alpinass)but he had to back out due to medical issues. i'm asking 3,500 for the complete motor including flywheel, head with intake throttle bodies, exhaust and intake manifolds, oil cooler and altenator.

We settled on 3150.00 As good will and to seal the deal i promised to cover half the shipping. alpinass is out your way and shipping to a comercial addy via freightline was 750.00. If you choose to keep your m5 pure I can extend the above price.

[L_N_Love]

Research M5BB's rebuild. HP to the wheels is 300+ and I cannot fathom why someone would need any more. His car is super fast. He took some of us for rides at the Vintage and it was awesome.

That is what I would want when that time comes for me.

[m535is]

Swapping a B36 is not as easy as some as making out here. Simply put they have a similar problem to the M30 B35s in that the bosses in the block for the engine mounting arms are not there. That requires adapter plates or some other solution. I went the Koala Motorsport way on my B38 transplant. Next you have to change over the oil pan and pump and depend on when your B36 was made you might not have the flanges on the back of the block to mount the flywheel cover from the E28. Yes the trans bolts up no problem, but depending on what you are going to do with engine management you may or may not need to change the flywheel. Next, so that it is easy to install and more of a drop in you will need to swap over the entire cooling system from the B35 to the B36. Same deal with the intake and you also need to change over/plug the 5 and 6 cylinder throttles as they have ports for the vacuum booster. Now onto the accessories. You will need to change over all of the accessory brackets and to make it easy use the B35 accessories. Now onto the monster, the wiring. You truely have 2 different possibilities. I personally believe the easiest way would be to retrofit the sensors, etc. from the B35 and use all the B35 stuff since you have it. Then get yourself a chip from Miller and get the right programming for the B36 but running on the B35 stuff. This is really the easiest way. If you want to upgrade to the B36 stuff you are into a treat of removing the secondary air pump, figuring out how to tune it without the special resonance flap in the intake, wiring a speed input into the ECU from the Speedo and then having to figure out why the fuel consumption doesn't read correctly.

My feeling is since you have a B35 in the car, either get a replacement B35 or get a B36 and basically make it a B35 with a stroker crank and some head updates and cams. That is the easiest way based off of the experiences I have had.

Hope this helps,
Rob

[ianwood]

B36 not sounding as plug and play as it first seemed. Rebuilding the B35 a la Gary with B36 cams, new pistons, headers, chip and a tune may be the better of the S38 options. Can I expect similar results, i.e. in the 280whp range? What would be a reasonable amount to pay someone to do this? I doubt I will ever get it through CA smog if I want to bring it back to LA someday. Ironically, I suspect the S54 option would have an easier chance at passing CA smog using stock S54 equipment.

[Rich Euro M5]

What would be a reasonable amount to pay someone to do this? .

At least the $$$s you stated in Option #1.

It will probably pass SMOG if the rebuild is done correctly, catalytic convertors are good, and the engine has a good tune.

[m535is]

Don't get me wrong, the B36 is plug and play, but only doing the long block is the easiest way to do it. This then puts you on the road to swapping over a lot of stuff between the B35 and B36, which most people prefer and feel more comfortable with rather than having to rewire, or do a bunch of custom stuff. BTW, here is a link to the custom stuff I did to get my B38 in. www.m535i.org/officers/ra/38.html

[Philo]

Hi Ian.., you may want to pay a visit to Southbay independent in Gardena. He's off Vermont and 182nd. The shop is more of an S14 hang out but the owner, Woa, is well versed in both S14s and S38s. He rebuilt Bruce Webb's engine a couple years ago i recall. And many others. And will get you back on the road at a fraction of the numbers being thrown around here.

I'm in Long Beach and frequent this shop. If you'd like I can meet you there and discuss options with Woa.

Hope this helps. Feel free to PM me if you like. But if you do choose to drop a B36 into your car let me know as well.., I have another local source that has dropped the B36 into an e30 M3 and is putting a B38 into a stripped out M6 track car.

Cheers.

[paul burke]

S38 in an E30 M3

Paul

[mooseheadm5]

Looks like a B36

Paul,
alpinass was looking to contact you.

[paul burke]

Looks like a B36

Paul,
alpinass was looking to contact you.

Its 94.5x90 bumping 400hp.

Best if he calls me (913) 948-3016

Second best if he e-mails info@bmwpowerparts.com


Paul

[L_N_Love]

I should have said to check with Paul Burke too.

[alpinass]

Hi Muraah Davis has the <40K s38b35. I confirmed the mileage and it was a score. I ended up with a serious dental bill coming next month..take care of your teeth!
I would BUY this motor - I can give you the name of the freight company too they will give you a quote and send to your email.

I am going to do something similar Muraah did his motor.
I now need to find b36 (264) camshafts. I already have Euro Headers and all the front cover maintenance including the s50b32 tensioner upgrade is a MUST!

Good Luck. If I can help let me know I am just new to the s38 world too.

PML

[ianwood]

Hi Ian.., you may want to pay a visit to Southbay independent in Gardena. He's off Vermont and 182nd. The shop is more of an S14 hang out but the owner, Woa, is well versed in both S14s and S38s.

I've heard of them. And they sound good. However, my car is on the East coast where I am working at the moment. The car is currently with the guys at RRT in VA which is all but 15 minutes from my office. They're coming up with some estimates for me while I figure out what the heck I actually want to do!

I should have said to check with Paul Burke too.

Paul's number and email are now in my contacts list. Will be calling him shortly! If I stick with the B35, I'll want Paul's hands on it! Big question is if I can get the power and still smog. BTW, I suppose it's obvious, but in case it's not I am coming around to the idea of keeping the B35 and rebuilding/improving it. At least, that way I have a motor I know is solid and will give me several thousand trouble free miles of enjoyment.

[Philo]

No problem Ian.., I saw your location in your sig and figured the car was in LA

[L_N_Love]

Paul's number and email are now in my contacts list. Will be calling him shortly! If I stick with the B35, I'll want Paul's hands on it! Big question is if I can get the power and still smog. BTW, I suppose it's obvious, but in case it's not I am coming around to the idea of keeping the B35 and rebuilding/improving it. At least, that way I have a motor I know is solid and will give me several thousand trouble free miles of enjoyment.

Good idea...

[M5BB]

Option 1 will cost less than $10k if you send it off to the right place, and you'll probably be able to coax more power out of it if you are willing to spend that much (hotter cams, HC pistons, etc.) Check out M5BB's car. I don't know how much he spent, but it had to be around that.

Option 2 will cost more than $10k if you do it right. You haven't searched enough. There is someone doing the swap right now in an E28.

I spent $6-7k on my engine but I already had the euro headers and I did all the work myself except the machine shop.
Here's the link to the dyno numbers and some discussion about what I spent.
http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=81942
Thanks for the compliment Leonard. Glad you enjoyed your ride.

[igotbank]

VA isn't far from NY and my friend has a truck

[Nicke28]

My feeling is since you have a B35 in the car, either get a replacement B35 or get a B36 and basically make is a B35 with a stroker crank. That is the easiest way based off of the experiences I have had.

Hope this helps,
Rob

By turning a B36 into a B35 how much of the B36 would be retained?

[m535is]

Block, Heads, front cover, rear cover, valve cover, coil wires, cap and rotor, your basic long block minus the oil pump and oil pan.

[Mab1957]

Tyson's Machine said they would do the block machine work on my spare S38. Tyson's is just down the Old Ox Road from RRT toward Herndon. They told me to bring the block over and they'd inspect and schedule the work based on what they see. Paul Burke (above) said he would do the head work and spec the parts for a build similar to Gary's. I'm still saving the $ to do the build so can't give you an estimate based on actual experience.

Igotbank's S38/B35 is, IMO, the easiest/best solution if you don't have interest/time/location to do the build.

I would like to meet you sometime while you're here. I get out to RRT periodically. They did my transmission swap.

[edlocke]

Swapping different motors other than what was designed for your car unless you have the means usually is a big hassle. I know where there is a e28/M5 S38 crate motor for 3500$. It belongs to Henry who used to work for Korman when Korman was "The Shop" now Henry is out on his own and still builds all of Kormans V12 motors. Henry quoted me on a stock s38 rebuild $7K and goes up from there depending on your need for speed.
I spoke with with Henry yesterday and his crate motor is ready to drop in and go. I would go this route unless you have the cash for more HP...you can trust that you're getting a motor that's gonna be hassle free.
By the way for the guys near Greensboro NC Henry has 2 Dynos...motor and car set up. he's very reasonable too,!


If you went this route you'd have your old block to make into a stroker when money was at hand

[Mab1957]

So what is Henry's contact information and website?

[edlocke]

Henry Lawrence 336-342-0883 motor builder and tuner in North Carolina located near Greensboro.

tell him I told you to call.

[Angelic0-]

swap in a S38B38 !!!

I suggest you try a E34 M5 with both versions....

S5x motors SUCK !!!

[L_N_Love]

Swapping different motors other than what was designed for your car unless you have the means usually is a big hassle. I know where there is a e28/M5 S38 crate motor for 3500$. It belongs to Henry who used to work for Korman when Korman was "The Shop" now Henry is out on his own and still builds all of Kormans V12 motors. Henry quoted me on a stock s38 rebuild $7K and goes up from there depending on your need for speed.
I spoke with with Henry yesterday and his crate motor is ready to drop in and go. I would go this route unless you have the cash for more HP...you can trust that you're getting a motor that's gonna be hassle free.
By the way for the guys near Greensboro NC Henry has 2 Dynos...motor and car set up. he's very reasonable too,!



If you went this route you'd have your old block to make into a stroker when money was at hand

Powerplant? Isn't that the place that Ken H went initially

[wkohler]

Swapping different motors other than what was designed for your car unless you have the means usually is a big hassle. I know where there is a e28/M5 S38 crate motor for 3500$. It belongs to Henry who used to work for Korman when Korman was "The Shop" now Henry is out on his own and still builds all of Kormans V12 motors. Henry quoted me on a stock s38 rebuild $7K and goes up from there depending on your need for speed.
I spoke with with Henry yesterday and his crate motor is ready to drop in and go. I would go this route unless you have the cash for more HP...you can trust that you're getting a motor that's gonna be hassle free.
By the way for the guys near Greensboro NC Henry has 2 Dynos...motor and car set up. he's very reasonable too,!



If you went this route you'd have your old block to make into a stroker when money was at hand

Powerplant? Isn't that the place that Ken H went initially

Seriously. I wouldn't give that guy one cent. Douche nozzle.

Ken has a few other words for him.

[mooseheadm5]

Powerplant? Isn't that the place that Ken H went initially

Seriously. I wouldn't give that guy one cent. Douche nozzle.

Ken has a few other words for him.

It sounded to me like Ken had more than just some choice language, but rather several Medieval instruments of torture ready for them.

[Ken H.]

On advice of counsel*, I won't say anything more than what Paul M. and Chris K. have posted. But there are a number of shops out there who are quite familiar with building an S38. Do your homework. Or PM me.

A few points worth noting.
1. The BMW KSD (flat rate manual) specifies 21.6 hours to disassemble/reassemble an S38. To this, add R&R time, which should be around 7.4 hours. Call it 29 man-hours from roll-in to roll-out.
2. Based on conversations with Ernie Keller, the owner of EuroTech in Golden, and a BMW Master Tech with 20+ years experience on these cars, the KSD times are around 5-8% fat; this to allow some leeway for a newbie tech and still let the shop not lose money.
3. The hours figure assumes all needed parts are literally on the bench--this includes gaskets, fittings, hoses, replacement parts, and that any and all BMW specialized tools for the S38 are on hand..
4. Any needed machine shop work would be in addition to the 21.6 hours. Think replacement of valve guides, or added head work, cylinder reboring or honing and so on. How involved this might be depends on what is going into the build. For reference, see the videos in Grsmonkey's build thread. http://youtu.be/XRAnBgQ_B7M

* No fooling. My attorneys told me to just STFU and let PowerPlant do it to themselves. Which they seem fully capable of doing.[/url]

What drives the cost of the S38 rebuilds is the parts costs; for example, the timing chain guides, tensioner, etc. can easily hit $1000. These beasts don't lend themselves to using junkyard parts or picking up Chinese-made trash at the local AutoZone.
Labor is labor, and when one goes to a well-regarded shop, you are paying for their experience and expertise. You or your buddy may be able to do as well, but there are a lot of little tricks in doing an S38 build . . . and they aren't in the S38 manual (written for the M88/3 M6).

So do your homework, but don't expect that the number is going to be a whole lot under $10K.

HTH

[Mab1957]

What are you doing now Ken? Where exactly is suburban Gomorrah? Distance to Sodom? (yes homo)

Seems those of us looking for a fresh s38 need a bankroll. I'd like to hear from someone else who had built one recently. Gary has been very forthcoming and his results are outstanding.

[Ken H.]

What are you doing now Ken? Where exactly is suburban Gomorrah? Distance to Sodom? (yes homo)

Slightly west of East Jesus and north of Bumfuck Egypt.

At present, I'm trying to find a clutch that will handle the torque and still be drivable on the street. Ones that are "soft" enough for DD use slip like nobody's business if I get serious about hanging my leg in it. On the other hand, ones that will support the torque are near-useless for anything other than dedicated track work.
Generally speaking, these use a sintered iron 6-puck friction disc and engagement is nothing short of brutal.

Seems those of us looking for a fresh s38 need a bankroll. I'd like to hear from someone else who had built one recently. Gary has been very forthcoming and his results are outstanding.

Like it or no, these engines do not come cheap. Without being rude, if you can't handle the buy-ins or the ante, don't sit down at the table. Stay with M30s and live with their limitations.

[ianwood]

So, I am going the B36 route. I bought bennets22's S38B36 off of eBay. Thanks to Nicke28 for pointing it out. It has low miles, the leak down numbers look pretty good and the swap shouldn't be too hard. Ultimately I get more power and still keep it in the S38 family. If I was in LA and had access to my more capable mechanic buddies and resources, I might have attempted this myself (under heavy supervision). Instead, the guys at RRT are going to manage the swap for me.

It'll be a bone stock B36 DME and harness to start with. A set of euro B35 headers will be swapped for the B36 ones which don't fit. It's not clear yet whether or not I need the Koala motor mount adapter plates but I'll find out soon enough. I'll also need a 535 radiator. Intake needs to be modified to mate up to the E24 air box. I am sure there's more.

Still on the lookout for:
E34 S38B36 harness
E34 S38B36 intake runners
E34 S38B36 MAF
E24/E28 S38B35 euro headers

And the B35 will soon be up for sale for someone to rebuild.