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Date with the Dyno

Discussion pertaining to positive pressure E28s.
Brad D.
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Date with the Dyno

Post by Brad D. »

Well, this morning I finally dyno'd the beast. It was a nice cool morning with about 65 degree F ambient temp and the butterflies in the stomach were fluttering. I wasn't quite sure what to expect but didn't want to overestimate my power and be disappointed. The heart is racing now as the car is strapped down and the wideband inserted into the exhaust. No turning back now. Start the datalogging as the dyno operator begins to run the car through the gears. As he makes the pull the car sounds awesome, angrily pulling to redline. It sounds like a good pull. I see the number and am ecstatic! AFRs looked geat and get complemented on the smoothness. We rip off another pull and it is within 1 hp of the last pull. Yes, that was awesome.
Oh, wait, you guys probably only want numbers. Well running around 8.5 psi the car ripped off a 299hp/322 ft-lb pull, corrected. Uncorrected was almost the same, within 1 hp. I think these numbers are quite healthy for an m30b35 at that boost level. It seems the turbo spools late but it spools much faster on the street with full boost at about 2900rpm, which I attribute to the way the pull was run. Either way, I am super pleased with the numbers and only need to lean out my AFRs a touch near redline as this is hard to do on the street. All of the tuning was done by me on the street.
Here is the dyno sheet and a screen shot of one of the logs.
Video will be up later when it gets uploaded.
Image

Image

Newest video here.

Second video with a good clip of the exhaust note here

Smoothing set to 2.
Image
Last edited by Brad D. on Apr 11, 2009 1:02 AM, edited 4 times in total.
Pat
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Post by Pat »

Great numbers for 8.5lbs of boost, time to turn it up a bit!
George
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Post by George »

Congrats!
M. Holtmeier
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Post by M. Holtmeier »

Congrats! Sounds like you did a hell of a job tuning on the street.

So, I take it a clutch is on the x-mas wish list.
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

Yup, clutch is next so I can up the boost. Then I think I'm going to upgrade my 42lb/hr injectors to at least 60s. I am very pleased with where I'm at.
Canuck YYC
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Post by Canuck YYC »

Interesting that even with FI, the head starts to fall down after 5500. No point running it beyond 5700-5800rpm as all it's doing at that point is stressing things out.

Inspirational thread. I've been tempted to sell a couple of cars and put some money into an FI build on the '87. Your results are pushing those cars a little closer to Craigslist. :up:
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Post by johnnye23 »

Great job Brad ;) Now the tweaking starts :alright:
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

Here is the only video clip that was taken and uploaded. It seems the quality is a bit lacking. :laugh: There might be one more clip later. Oh well, it's the numbers that count. And yes, that is my goofy ass in the sweatshirt that walks in front of the camera.
babisbabou
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Post by babisbabou »

Well done mate the car should be awesome and powerful!!!


P.S. 299 rwhp or on the flywheel?
They sound wonderful both ways the car is faster than a M5E28/E34 and M3E30/E36/E46 :shock: :D
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

babisbabou wrote:

P.S. 299 rwhp or on the flywheel?
Thats rear wheel HP. Assuming 15% drivetrain loss, that's like 343hp at the flywheel.
George
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Post by George »

Big Bronze Rim wrote:
babisbabou wrote:

P.S. 299 rwhp or on the flywheel?
Thats rear wheel HP. Assuming 15% drivetrain loss, that's like 343hp at the flywheel.
For our cars, I tend to think its more like 18-20% drive train loss.
babisbabou
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Post by babisbabou »

Hey that is a lot of power mate!!! Well done, i wish you the best.
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

thesixerkid wrote:
Big Bronze Rim wrote:
babisbabou wrote:

P.S. 299 rwhp or on the flywheel?
Thats rear wheel HP. Assuming 15% drivetrain loss, that's like 343hp at the flywheel.
For our cars, I tend to think its more like 18-20% drive train loss.
Even better! That's 353-359fwhp. Either way, I'm happy with the whp numbers.
Scottinva
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Post by Scottinva »

Glad to hear you are happy with your results, now to get that new clutch to see the higher turbo pressure numbers.
Ken H.
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Post by Ken H. »

thesixerkid wrote:
Big Bronze Rim wrote:
babisbabou wrote:

P.S. 299 rwhp or on the flywheel?
Thats rear wheel HP. Assuming 15% drivetrain loss, that's like 343hp at the flywheel.
For our cars, I tend to think its more like 18-20% drive train loss.


Beg to differ. With a manual drivetrain, the losses are in the 15-16% range; with an automatic that goes up to ~20-22%. The higher loss numbers are good for inflating one's ego.
A few questions:
1. What was the air delivery at 8.5 psi?
2. What kind of injector duty cycle numbers at full boost?
3. Do you have any graphics on the spark timing matrices?
4. Can you provide any figures on the cam timing--degrees advanced/retarded?
Nice, consistent pulls, Brad.
Looking forward to the next session's results. :up:
George
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Post by George »

Ken H. wrote: Beg to differ. With a manual drivetrain, the losses are in the 15-16% range; with an automatic that goes up to ~20-22%.
:
Ken, I've seen plenty of drive train % losses posted over the years but I've never seen any hard data that confirms one over other. What are you basing those numbers on?
Good & Tight
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Post by Good & Tight »

Nice power band. Your street tune was pretty damn good.
Ken H.
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Post by Ken H. »

George, you might want to have a look at this website.
http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/
LOTS of good information. David Baker has a lucid discussion on power train losses along with a number of other worthwhile topics. I ran this info past Jay Kimball and Justin Pierce at MileHigh Performance when we were doing the development work on LH's engine management and turbo settings. Jay's thinking is the power loss percentages are going to be greater, relatively speaking, on small-displacement engines when compared to say a BB Chevy.
Think losses closer to the 20% level when dialing in a 1600 cc Honda, while the BB Chev might be closer to the 16% figure. The drain thru the trans and drivetrain has some irreducible minimums which tend to put more of a burden percentage-wise on the smaller engines. For purposes of discussion here, I'm ignoring the differences in loss related to front-wheel drive vs. RWD. Read Baker for some good coverage on this.

When we got my dyno results, the question of, "707 at the wheels equals what at the crank?" got run past Paul. He thought 16% loss was probably a pretty fair estimate. I ran the dyno and datalog rersults backwards through the Not2Fast turbo mathematical model and got values that were within a couple of percent of what the model predicted. Which certainly did a lot for my confidence in the "paper engine."

Since Jay, Justin and Burke have built more engines than you or I will ever see, I tend to trust their judgment. All of these gentlemen have told me it is only to easy to fudge the numbers--input a slightly-off SAE correction value; use an incorrect altitude, air temp or relative humidity number and things can get twisted. Similarly, use a peak acceleration number on the roller rather than a steady rate figure and you can come up with something closer to the client's dream. . . .
Net-net, our drivetrains have relatively few power-drainers. A dual-mass flywheel won't help. The potential wind-up in the subframe can be minimized with top-condition subframe and diff bushings. A case can be made that the guibo should count for a higher loss value, but once again, I've assumed that the rubber-snubber was fresh, as are the motor mounts. In other words, all the rubber bits are tight.

Paul insists that chassis dynos are a necessary evil; at least you can get some kind of value and it beats a ouiji board. The only way (sez he) is to use a properly set up and calibrated engine dyno pumping who knows how much water. This is all very well and good if such dyno is available, and you can go through the agony of connecting up all the plumbing and the engine management paraphenalia. This independent of going thru your kid's college tuition money. :shock:

Power losses through torque convertors vary all over the lot; changing stall speeds or vane configurations can make a lot of difference. In other words, a setup configured purely for quarter-mile is going to show a lower loss value than what might be seen on your wife's Windstar. Similarly, an open diff might contribute to a higher loss number than a Quaife or a welded-up 100% locker.
Sooo, when someone says, "I'm getting 'X' out of my motor because the dyno said so," it's time to take things with a large pinch of salt. Either let it ride or be prepared for some heated discussion. :argue:
HTH

Ken

PS: Jay has my dyno printouts on his office wall. I might add they infuriate any number of the guys pushing American Iron North-Northeast up Bandimere Speedway. :D
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Post by clevertd »

Nice results, Congrats!
babisbabou
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Post by babisbabou »

An M3E46 produces that much on the wheels, seen on a dyno here in Greece, accurately 295-310whp, BMW gives 343 flywheel power for M3E46. But as said by BBR whp is what matters ;)


(i hope my little 2,8lt engine makes 200whp and i will be happy enough 299 is a big dream...maybe some day :) )
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Post by Jay Bee »

You're A/F mixture is very nice.

Congrats
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Post by cvillebimmer »

With a little luck, I'll be back on the road after this weekend. It'll be interesting to see how 9psi with a TCD upgraded K-27 and Motronic adds up on the Dyno. Obviously, there are lots of other differences, but I'll be happy if see something close to those numbers.

Your considering 60lb injectors? Do you think 24lb injectors on my setup are too small?
George
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Post by George »

cvillebimmer wrote: Do you think 24lb injectors on my setup are too small?
I think that's a little small for 9 psi. I would have gone with 30#ers minimum. Probably 37#ers just to be safe.

see Here for basic calculations regarding injector sizing.
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Post by cvillebimmer »

Thanks George... I was thinking the same. When I decided on the 24s, I was assuming my waste gate would give me 6-7psi. Turns out I have the older style 745i waste gate with 9-10 psi. We'll see what the LC-1 tells me about the A/F ratio and go from there.
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Post by turbodan »

With the BEGi RRFPR, you can safely utilize smaller injectors. I ran 8 psi on my early turbo system using the stock 14.7 lb/hr injectors. With an RRFPR, 24lb'ers should be able to keep up.
George
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Post by George »

cvillebimmer wrote:Thanks George... I was thinking the same. When I decided on the 24s, I was assuming my waste gate would give me 6-7psi. Turns out I have the older style 745i waste gate with 9-10 psi. We'll see what the LC-1 tells me about the A/F ratio and go from there.
An interesting note: It seems like there are quite a few s50/s52 guys making 250+rwhp, so at first glance, 24# of flow might seem to be enough but when you factor in the higher Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) for an F/I motor, it makes sense that a higher injector rate is required to make a given amount of horsepower.
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

My next set of injectors will be at least 60lb/hr. I probably bought these 42lb/hr guys a little small but the price was right and I can turn and sell them pretty easily. There is also more power in them if I bump up the base rail pressure which I haven't done yet.
clevertd
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Post by clevertd »

thesixerkid wrote:An interesting note: It seems like there are quite a few s50/s52 guys making 250+rwhp, so at first glance, 24# of flow might seem to be enough but when you factor in the higher Brake Specific Fuel Consumption (BSFC) for an F/I motor, it makes sense that a higher injector rate is required to make a given amount of horsepower.
I have yet to see any S50/S52 motor make such numbers.
Brad D.
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Post by Brad D. »

New video added in the first post.
e30-m30_kid89
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Post by e30-m30_kid89 »

Congrats Brad! Very nice numbers for a measley 8.5 psi. Even more motivation for me to get my setup done...
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