M30 guys what are your INTAKE TEMPS?

[ejmpower]

I just finished putting together my dinan turbo setup and my intake temps are high, about 50 degrees above ambient (ie if its 70 degress outside I am at 120-130). I have looked at one other guys m30 (non-turbo) and the intake manifold does seem to run hotter than say in an m20. The intake pipe leading to the manifold is actually cooler than the manifold itself. Is this compatable with what other everyone is seeing or is it just me?
BTW my car is a 89 535i. Any cheap ways to cool my engine down? I already know about water injection and that would is going to be done in the future.

[T_C_D]

120-130 at what psi?
Todd

[ejmpower]

I am currently at 13psi with 27lb injectors, the 36lb injectors you sent me make the car run to rich, I cant even use the rising rate as even now with the smaller injectors my AFR is 10.8-11.2. Before with the 36lb injectors it would hit 10.2-10.6.

[T_C_D]

I am currently at 13psi with 27lb injectors, the 36lb injectors you sent me make the car run to rich, I cant even use the rising rate as even now with the smaller injectors my AFR is 10.8-11.2. Before with the 36lb injectors it would hit 10.2-10.6.

120-130 is fine.

You still running the Dinan Electronics?

[ejmpower]

I am currently at 13psi with 27lb injectors, the 36lb injectors you sent me make the car run to rich, I cant even use the rising rate as even now with the smaller injectors my AFR is 10.8-11.2. Before with the 36lb injectors it would hit 10.2-10.6.

120-130 is fine.

You still running the Dinan Electronics?

was never running the dinan electronics, just using your chip and have the rrfpr installed but not hooked up (and have ryans wideband), do you have any suggestions for cooling the intake temps? and getting the AFR correct so I can fine tune it with the RRFPR?

[ejmpower]

Todd-

Forgot to ask, what are you seeing for intake temps?

[russc]

So,
Im guessing that your runing the 179 ECU? If so, I believe that you'll run rich with 36lb injs and no AFM adjustments. Did you adjust the AFM properly. Thats very important with the larger inj's.

If not the 179, which ECU?

RussC

[ejmpower]

So,
Im guessing that your runing the 179 ECU? If so, I believe that you'll run rich with 36lb injs and no AFM adjustments. Did you adjust the AFM properly. Thats very important with the larger inj's.

If not the 179, which ECU?

RussC

I do have the 179 ecu, but right now I am running 27lb injectors and it still runs rich. I have played with the AFM a little and it has helped although now it idles and cruses a little lean, but not by much 15.5-15.6

[russc]

Mmmm,
Im runing 32lb inj's with my 179 and its just right with the AFM adjustments I made. But Im using a Apexi S-AFC II to adjust fuel. Right now Im at stochio on idle/cruise and just right with the S-AFC adjusted a little lean. You may wan't to give it some more time to adapt some, it may lean it out?

Thats the issue with the 179, adaptation is kinda weird to get right..and may never run completely perfect.

Oh, are you getting fault codes? That will cause it to run real rich as your running out of maps(ignores apaptation, which you need to run right) when a code gets set. Do the pedal stabs to get codes at least once every day(or at least see if you have any set). Some faults will only pop the MIL on for a second, and you wont see it, but the ECU remembers and goes into all sorts of limp modes you don't know about........

Read my M30b35 engine swap thread for lots of info on the M30b35 and 179 ECU issues. Read the whole thing, it will give you lots of info you need to get the car tuned(maybe.. )

http://www.mye28.com/viewtopic.php?t=16759

RussC

[ejmpower]

Oh, are you getting fault codes? That will cause it to run real rich as your running out of maps(ignores apaptation, which you need to run right) when a code gets set. Do the pedal stabs to get codes at least once every day(or at least see if you have any set). Some faults will only pop the MIL on for a second, and you wont see it, but the ECU remembers and goes into all sorts of limp modes you don't know about........

RussC

I am running with the check engine light on, but I just assumed it was for not having the 02 sensor plugged in, I am using my roomates Innovate Wideband that just plugs into a portable control box, I forgot the name its either the LM1 or LC1. So the computer is not getting a signal. I figured it would just run open loop all the time, but I believe you said that the 179 ecu never runs in open loop in your engine swap thread?

[russc]

Oh, are you getting fault codes? That will cause it to run real rich as your running out of maps(ignores apaptation, which you need to run right) when a code gets set. Do the pedal stabs to get codes at least once every day(or at least see if you have any set). Some faults will only pop the MIL on for a second, and you wont see it, but the ECU remembers and goes into all sorts of limp modes you don't know about........

RussC

I am running with the check engine light on, but I just assumed it was for not having the 02 sensor plugged in, I am using my roomates Innovate Wideband that just plugs into a portable control box, I forgot the name its either the LM1 or LC1. So the computer is not getting a signal. I figured it would just run open loop all the time, but I believe you said that the 179 ecu never runs in open loop in your engine swap thread?

If you had read my thread, you would know that the 179 never runs completely open loop..

You cant do anything untill you get a proper O2 signal into the 179. Stop what your doing now...or you will ruin your engine. With any active faults on the ECU, it will dump adaptation and run standard maps(inj size constant is run with no changes so any off idle runing is pig rich) and runs a fail safe idle limp mode. Thats why idle is OK, the rest is rich.

With no O2 signal to the ECU, it can't adapt to your larger inj size, so your hosed but good. You need to get the car runing with no faults at all under idle and cruise, then worry about boost tuning.

Read my swap thread start to finish.

RussC

[ejmpower]

I did read your thread, thats why I said "but I believe you said that the 179 ecu never runs in open loop in your engine swap thread", but I will put the 02 sensor back in, but then how do I know what my AFRs are?

[russc]

I did read your thread, thats why I said "but I believe you said that the 179 ecu never runs in open loop in your engine swap thread", but I will put the 02 sensor back in, but then how do I know what my AFRs are?

OK, so Im confused. How can the ECU work right if you don't have a O2 hooked up to the ECU? Did I miss that part?

You have to run both O2 sensors. A NBO2 for the ECU and the WBO2(LM-1, LC-1 or whatever).

I run both. My car theres a bung in the exhaust manifold for the NBO2 and a downpip bung for the LM-1. Its the only way it works. You can run a NBO2 only and use a regular O2 sensor, but that wont help you with boosted AFRs.

RussC

[90e34535i]

Hey guys,

Ive ran without a Narrow Band for a LONG time just fine using the LM-1 output.

Just program one of the Outputs on the LM-1 as standard 0-1volt NB range. And plug that into your Stock O2 Input. Thax how I have mine, I Just cut off my stock O2 sensor, and used my Wideband + simulated N/B o2 reading for over a year before turbo.

Instead of cutting your O2 off, you could just cut the one Sensor Wire(out of the 4, its the positive sensor line), and connect the computer side to the LM-1 output.

Dont know if thats too much trouble though If you dont Own the LM-1, because you need the Aux. Output Cable(thin cable with 2 wire outputs, with a microphone like jack).

Hope that helps,

-RJ

[russc]

Hey guys,

Ive ran without a Narrow Band for a LONG time just fine using the LM-1 output.

Just program one of the Outputs on the LM-1 as standard 0-1volt NB range. And plug that into your Stock O2 Input. Thax how I have mine, I Just cut off my stock O2 sensor, and used my Wideband + simulated N/B o2 reading for over a year before turbo.

Instead of cutting your O2 off, you could just cut the one Sensor Wire(out of the 4, its the positive sensor line), and connect the computer side to the LM-1 output.

Dont know if thats too much trouble though If you dont Own the LM-1, because you need the Aux. Output Cable(thin cable with 2 wire outputs, with a microphone like jack).

Hope that helps,

-RJ

I couldn't get the narrow output of the Lm-1 to work. Its not a proper O2 signal. It will be very hard to make it work properly under boost conditions. The 179 ECU is very precise in how it uses the O2 input.

RussC

[ejmpower]

OK, so Im confused. How can the ECU work right if you don't have a O2 hooked up to the ECU? Did I miss that part?

You have to run both O2 sensors. A NBO2 for the ECU and the WBO2(LM-1, LC-1 or whatever).

I run both. My car theres a bung in the exhaust manifold for the NBO2 and a downpip bung for the LM-1. Its the only way it works. You can run a NBO2 only and use a regular O2 sensor, but that wont help you with boosted AFRs.

RussC[/quote]

I forgot about the port on the manifold, I will plug my narrowband into that, right now I have it plugged.

For clarification:
Way it was: only had wideband plugged into downpipe port, no narrowband going to ecu

way it will be: keep wideband in downpipe and add narrowband to manifold.

[Shawn D.]

way it will be: keep wideband in downpipe and add narrowband to manifold.

Check the narrow band sensor specs to make sure it can go in the manifold -- it might be too hot there.

[90e34535i]

Russc,

Why is it not a proper O2 signal? Its simply a voltage you determine in Innovate's software. You can set the Voltage to anything between 0-5 volts for whichever AFR. Though it must be linear, So I guess if the stock ECU AFR->Voltage conversion is not a linear conversion, it might be slightly off, but how accurate are narrow bands anyway? If its at 0.5 volts at 14.7 should work alright.

And why would it be hard to get it to work under boost?

I use a Narrow Band O2 Meter thats mounted above my steering wheel, and It seems to react perfectly and corresponds to the AFR on the LM-1.

[ejmpower]

Russ- I am correct in that you have your narrowband in the manifold, right?

[Brad D.]

Why is it not a proper O2 signal? Its simply a voltage you determine in Innovate's software. You can set the Voltage to anything between 0-5 volts for whichever AFR. Though it must be linear, So I guess if the stock ECU AFR->Voltage conversion is not a linear conversion, it might be slightly off, but how accurate are narrow bands anyway? If its at 0.5 volts at 14.7 should work alright.

And why would it be hard to get it to work under boost?

The stock narrow band curve is definitely non-linear. Even if its ~.5V at stoich, Motronic 1.3 will probably still balk at the values in the extremely rich and lean ranges of o2 voltage. From reading Russ's other post, being that 1.3 always runs closed loop and is trying to determine fueling in the entire range of o2 voltage, it would seem that the scaling and shape of the curve of the o2 voltage would need to be almost identical to stock over the entire range to prevent a limp mode. The reason he says its hard to get it to work under boost is that since its constantly closed loop, any fueling corrections you make, say to richen up under boost, will be nullified by the stock NB o2 trimming the mixture to bring it back to the programmed target value. While I do find it crazy that BMW relies this heavily on a NB o2 for fueling, it seems that, from others experience, this is indeed the case. You will need to rely on o2 trickery to prevent trimming you don't want.
This is the main reason I'm following suit and switching to MS for my turbo project with my 179 controlled car as I dont even want to hassle with all of 1.3 "oddities".

[ejmpower]

Does anybody here know how to trick the stock oil pressure switch so that it doesnt turn the cluster light on? (I used that port as my oil source and for my external oil pressure/temp gauges)

I have tried grounding the single wire that went to the switch but that only fools the car for about 30 seconds and then the pressure light comes back on.

[russc]

Russ- I am correct in that you have your narrowband in the manifold, right?

Yep, Dinan makes the manifold that way. Im using a $45 Mustang O2 in the manifold.

Bigbronze is correct. The 179 never runs completely open loop. The only issue with boost is that the 179 will over a long period of time lean out WOT due to long term adaptation from the "very rich" condition you run under boost. You may be able to get a good AFR initially, but over time it will most likey lean out w/o a O2 clamp.

Dinans E24, E32 and E34 turbo system used 3 piggyback computer to make it work, a fuel computer, a knock controller and a O2 clamp/simulator.

The problem with the NB output of the LM-1 is that it is not a proper o2 simulator. Read the LM-1 manual. It is a linear signal to the AFR value between 0-1V. The O2 is anything but that. The 179 uses the O2 in a very precise way, converting the signal with a A/D converter and making fuel decisions with that signal.

The latest BMW ECUs use 2 O2's, pre and post cat. That way they can determine if the cat is working properly also per OBD-II specs. That is some precision control.

RussC