Makin Horsepower///////>>>>>>>>>&

CarbonFabMan · Post by **CarbonFabMan** » Oct 03, 2005 1:59 PM

i have just recenly purchased a 1987 528e and was wondering what some of you fellow wrenchers would recommend to make around 380hp i currently have the all stock parts and am trying to slowly prepare the engine to handle around 400hp at the same time i dont know much about bmws i work mostly on american rods and was wondering what would be the most dependable way to make this kind of horses without running into replaceing parts on a daily basis please give me you wisdom!!!!!

rundatrack · Post by **rundatrack** » Oct 03, 2005 3:54 PM

www.turbochargingdynamics.com

and do a google search on patrick philpot...that should give you a good idea

Yellow2 · Post by **Yellow2** » Oct 03, 2005 4:12 PM

The basics that most turbocharged cars are going to need.

Custom Turbo setup from 745i or Cartech or TCD (easiest way)
Intercooling of some sort as these engines have alot of heat soak
Fuel injector upgrade + management to control these
stand alone (tec3) or other to manage boost and fuel curves
A good block/ rebuild would be in order to maintain the car(new bearings, gaskets, rings, ect ect)
headwork helps with larger cam and stiffer valves/better springs
rods should be all good for your HP range
custom pistons could be used if you so desire.

dont expect to get 350+hp with just bolting on a turbo and going boost crazy. alot of work has to be done and done right from the beginning. ask the guys on this forum for some more advice. these engines are big and stout, but they have their weaknesses as found with many people here.

-Alex
-533i turbo

stuartinmn · Post by **stuartinmn** » Oct 03, 2005 4:53 PM

I think the other guys are assuming you have a 535i, but you said it's a 528e? Getting that kind of hp out of the eta is going to be more difficult.

Post by **Shawn D.** » Oct 03, 2005 5:15 PM

FYI, double-posting reduces your HP by 10 each time!

Post by **Jeremy** » Oct 03, 2005 5:20 PM

Yellow wrote:The basics that most turbocharged cars are going to need.

Custom Turbo setup from 745i or Cartech or TCD (easiest way)

745i manifold doesn't work on the m20 (528e) head.

Intercooling of some sort as these engines have alot of heat soak

Ummm, you can't heat soak something that doesn't have an intercooler. And seeing as you can run 12-14psi safely on an 8:1 m30 without an intercooler, I don't see the need in a "basic turbocharged e28". To achieve his goals, yes, but it's far from required.

Fuel injector upgrade

True.

+ management to control these stand alone (tec3) or other to manage boost and fuel curves

Why? Motronic can be tuned to run larger injectors up to a point. The limit seems to be the 36lb injectors. Anything bigger than that becomes problematic for several reasons. 36lb injectors will support quite a bit of power.

A good block/ rebuild would be in order to maintain the car(new bearings, gaskets, rings, ect ect)
headwork helps with larger cam and stiffer valves/better springs
rods should be all good for your HP range
custom pistons could be used if you so desire.

Neccessary for him to even have a shot at his goal, but again, not neccessary for your "basic turbo e28".

dont expect to get 350+hp with just bolting on a turbo and going boost crazy. alot of work has to be done and done right from the beginning. ask the guys on this forum for some more advice. these engines are big and stout, but they have their weaknesses as found with many people here.

-Alex
-533i turbo

Alex, what you said is mostly true for what he's asking about, I take issue mainly with the fact that you presented all that as required for a "basic turbocharged car".

In order to achieve 400+ horsepower, he'll definitely need to lower the compression somehow (custom pistons more than likely), and prepare the head/block interface for some serious boost. 25-30psi worth I would think. At that point you start talking about considering sleeving the cylinders and running a solid copper headgasket. In other words, doing things that generally disqualify a car from being a "daily driver", which I got the feeling is what he's after.

CarbonFabMan, I'm afraid I have to ask. Why such lofty goals? And why use the 528e motor as a starting point? The various m30 motors are much better candidates for big boosted power.

Jeremy

Yellow2 · Post by **Yellow2** » Oct 03, 2005 5:36 PM

i read the bit about the 528e engine starting point now. sorry on the 745i manifold information. you are going to have to find an M20 turbo kit. thats out of my hands.

Heat soak dosent refer just to the intercooler like in SMIC and TMIC systems (top and side mount). Engine blocks will gain +30* just after turning the car off or sitting at a red light for 5 minutes. An intercooler is oing to be a must for the boost levels you are going to have to run. Why has noone run 400hp out of these motors? I see in the Nisssan market SR20's and RB20's (excuse my Nismo background) running 400hp easily with intercoolers and oil coolers, but rarely see them not running them. I dont believe that it is a good idea at all to run these engines w/o an intercooler past low boost ranges.

I have confidence in these engines to winstand and take the abuse we put in front of them, but why are you working 2x as hard to achieve goals when you can help reduce initial manifold temp's and run higher boost SAFELY. You want the car to be a semi-daily driver and I dont think you will have that without major prep work.

He obviously isnt going for a "basic" turbo package liek most of us have done unless he starts putting down some big bucks to make each component work together. Lower compression is definitly in the list of things to do whether via the head gasket or different pistons, but then we start going totally custom. While yo uare taking out the pistons to do rings and things, why not do bearings, oil pump, and other things to maintain this daily driver.

Dont you love cars... They just cost soo much $$.

T_C_D · Post by **T_C_D** » Oct 03, 2005 6:01 PM

[QUOTE="Yellow"]Why has noone run 400hp out of these motors? I see in the Nisssan market SR20's and RB20's (excuse my Nismo background) running 400hp easily with intercoolers and oil coolers, but rarely see them not running them. [/QUOTE]

It's called 2 valves per cyl vs 4 valves per cyl!

Yellow2 · Post by **Yellow2** » Oct 03, 2005 9:37 PM

It's called 2 valves per cyl vs 4 valves per cyl!

This is true, why all your hard work has paid off in discovering the weakness of the M30...the head, better on the B35 than the 34, but still nowhere near where we need to be at.

A larger cam, ie. valve time duration, would allow for more air to be crammed in there, but dropping the temp of the incoming presurized air has always helped push many more ponies out of any forced induction application. '

CarbonFabMan, let us know a little more on what you plan on doing. Where you stand with engine milage, what parts you plan on using, what turbo size, what boost ranges, project price range, and so on. We are here to help most of the time, sometimes it can get a bit crazy ~0 . If you want 400hp, expect to put alot into it.

Ask away, the guys on these forums really know their stuff. Hats off to everyone here how has helped in all projects on this board.

gol10dr1 · Post by **gol10dr1** » Oct 04, 2005 2:10 AM

a 524td manifold would fit your motor with slight modification.

Tjn182 · Post by **Tjn182** » Oct 04, 2005 8:26 AM

Alex there's plenty of 745i gearheads that have broken 400hp... maybe not at the wheels though :P - but it's been done.

Also, Jeremy -
In technicalities, me and yellow still consider heatsoak with non-intercooled cars. Take mine or yours for instance - I'm sure you've ragged out first gear, second gear, third gear, and started working 4th gear but noticed that your power is much lacking. That darn turbo has made the charged air temps so hot that the 10psi extra in your cylinders isn't doing jack crap. That's what we consider heatsoak on a non-intercooled application.

[Edit by Tjn182 on [TIME]1128428957[/TIME]]

T_C_D · Post by **T_C_D** » Oct 04, 2005 9:17 AM

[QUOTE="Tjn182"]Alex there's plenty of 745i gearheads that have broken 400hp... maybe not at the wheels though :P - but it's been done.

Also, Jeremy -
In technicalities, me and yellow still consider heatsoak with non-intercooled cars. Take mine or yours for instance - I'm sure you've ragged out first gear, second gear, third gear, and started working 4th gear but noticed that your power is much lacking. That darn turbo has made the charged air temps so hot that the 10psi extra in your cylinders isn't doing jack crap. That's what we consider heatsoak on a non-intercooled application.

[Edit by Tjn182 on [TIME]1128428957[/TIME]][/QUOTE]

TJ,

You are way off base on both accounts. I have never seen a 745i setup break 350rwhp. Certainly not seen a dyno sheet. It is possible and I am sure it has been done but don't say it so casually like it's easy.

The turbo itself does not heat soak. The components around it do. Heat soak is almost exclusively used to describe the intercooler. The only part in a non intercooled car that could become heat soaked in the intake manifold and cyl head.

I drove my e28 15k miles non intercooled at 15psi and it never heat soaked on the street! Heck even on the dyno the power losses from heat soak were minimal.

The heat soak on your car is probably from the restricted exhaust!

Todd

Tjn182 · Post by **Tjn182** » Oct 04, 2005 10:34 AM

stupid exhaust.... I'll get one of your systems when the time (and money) comes. I have read reports of 400 and 450hp in the catacombs of the 745i guys, but you're right, nobody has any hardcore evidence such as dyno sheets to back it up - so it's hard to believe. And I wasn't trying to make 400hp sound easy haha No way!

But my intake pipes get just as toasty as my IM and such - sometimes it's too hot to touch... way too hot to touch.
But with these colder temps rolling in, I'll be set for the winter (sub 40*F bring it on!)

russc · Post by **russc** » Oct 04, 2005 1:52 PM

I think that theres no evidence that 400hp exist is mostly due to "numbers". You see way more Hondas, Toyotas, Audis, VW and Nissans making 400hp due to the fact theres 10000x more of them around. So tuners make and sell what exist in the the market to "make money". You have a much better chance of selling a 400hp Audi 1.8t kit that a 20yr old BMW chassis. What also helps is haveing a factory turbo already on the car...ala Buick GNX(low volume, but tons of 400hp cars), same goes with Porsche, Audi, SAAB, VW, Supra, Skyline ect etc. This goes along with perception, also. As I see it, all the cars you see, which for me is mostly the stuff on TV and in magazines and internet sites, all fall into the above syndrome. We see mostly whats hot, and whats been "hot" for a decade is the above cars.

And, some of the BMW here are a hairs breath away from 400hp. My car made 380hp crank(if I had used some 93, I might have gotten there), Todds 745i is a few hp short and his 535i should have been over, Sweeneys twin setup made 400+ crank, Andrews is well over, and theres all the Philpot cars of the early 2000s. There are at least 3 turbo E28 ///M5s that made 400hp+ crank in the last 3 or so years.

Hey, it's just a rare deal that someone wants to put $10k of turbo/performance stuff on a $4k car thats 20years old

RussC

Post by **Jeremy** » Oct 04, 2005 2:52 PM

To go along with what Russ said, a lot of those manufacturers of factory turbo cars had marque supported racing efforts. Special engines, special heads, special turbos, a whole slew of things. BMW never raced the 745i, so there's no factory support, it's all aftermarket. They did have that glorious turbo F1 chassis/motor, but nobody sane uses that kind of stuff on the street.

Jeremy

russc · Post by **russc** » Oct 04, 2005 2:59 PM

Plus, the factory turbo F1 stuff was all custom, had no relation to anything production. BMW did race the M30, it was in classes that didn't require large hp, as a result there was little development. Your call on the racing development is spot on also.

RussC

Yellow2 · Post by **Yellow2** » Oct 04, 2005 4:44 PM

ala Buick GNX(low volume, but tons of 400hp cars)

I just watched a thing on speedTV about these. Out of the 500 or so GNX's that were made, the existing ones almost all make 400+hp. It was a good show.

Hey, it's just a rare deal that someone wants to put $10k of turbo/performance stuff on a $4k car thats 20years old

I see you M5 guys putting 10K into your cars to make them show quality all the time. Some like it show, some like it go. I prefer both.

Anyway, CarbonFabMan. Which way are you going now that we shed some light into the path. :~

CarbonFabMan · Post by **CarbonFabMan** » Oct 04, 2005 5:52 PM

hello all and thanks for the great input i was shooting for 400hp just as a high goal to see what kind of projects had been done to aquire this kind of HP i have a high intrest in getting somewhere around 350hp out of it but Anyway the car itself has 180,000 on the block but i just did a rebuild from the head up i had to have the head welded and resuface because of the electrolosis that happens with a bad engine ground/coolant mixture i picked this car up for 1000$ with a set of 18inch wheels i never saw this as a project car just something to get me around town while my truck trans was getting repaired. but now that i have my truck back i am looking to get a little more serious with it. i think that i am going to hit the junkyards and try to find a exhaust manafold from a turbo six i have even seen some with factory tubos still attached i just dont know if i should purchase one considering to use a differant turbo i might need a new manafold Anyway. the whole reason for this project is that my cousin went out of town for a week and left me with his 88 m3 it had around 360hp ever since then i have been addicted, thanks alot micheal i just love the way these cars put it down in the corners so now that i have the cornering down time to move on tooooooo makiiiin that Pooooowwwwwweeeeeeerrrr oooohhh yeess.

Yellow2 · Post by **Yellow2** » Oct 04, 2005 6:01 PM

i think that i am going to hit the junkyards and try to find a exhaust manafold from a turbo six

good luck finding these in the yards. only turbos you will find are the 524TD's and who knows the condition of those. Check ebay for almost everything you need.

Ask all that you need now and tell all that you have so we know where you stand and what you should expect in the future. We are here to help.

Steve in No Va · Post by **Steve in No Va** » Oct 04, 2005 6:18 PM

If you have a 528e as your 1st post stated, I think the first thing you have to do is sell the car and buy a 535i or 535is. This discussion pertains to the M30 engine. Even the e30 kit Todd makes is designed for the m20 motor, so there isn't a whole lot you can do with that motor to make big numbers.

chrism · Post by **chrism** » Oct 04, 2005 6:50 PM

actualy i would bet my 535, that of the 547 87 Buick Grand National GNX's built that 90%+ of them are garage queens.

the GNX had only marginal engine improvements at the time(slightly improved intercooler, ceramic exhaust wheel, and programing). the simple upgrades for a standard Grand National would put a hurtin on a stock GNX.

I just watched a thing on speedTV about these. Out of the 500 or so GNX's that were made, the existing ones almost all make 400+hp. It was a good show.

[Edit by chrism on [TIME]1128466297[/TIME]]

Skeen · Post by **Skeen** » Oct 04, 2005 9:32 PM

[QUOTE="Steve in No Va"]If you have a 528e as your 1st post stated, I think the first thing you have to do is sell the car and buy a 535i or 535is. This discussion pertains to the M30 engine. Even the e30 kit Todd makes is designed for the m20 motor, so there isn't a whole lot you can do with that motor to make big numbers.[/QUOTE]

Uhhh, the 528e is an M20 motor. Getting an M30 to put in the car would definitely make 400hp easier, but it is possible to work with the 528e if he really wants to.

CarbonFabMan · Post by **CarbonFabMan** » Oct 04, 2005 10:33 PM

i have been thinking about a donor motor these last couple of days but what can i swap it with to make it a clean swap (you know the kind that will bolt up to the mounts and trans with minimal fabbing efforts) ? i just want to put my wrench to work and get greezy most of all i do have time on my side i am in no rush to make mistakes so thanks to everyone for the input so far. i will be ready to take a j-yard trip this weekend to look for a donor motor please let me know of the highest choice picks for my powerless ride. once again thanks to all who contributed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Steve in No Va · Post by **Steve in No Va** » Oct 04, 2005 10:35 PM

Sorry, you're right. But isn't it the eta version of that motor? Todd's set up is based on the 325i motor, so I would think he would have to change some of the internals to get to the same starting point as that engine.

CarbonFabMan · Post by **CarbonFabMan** » Oct 04, 2005 10:38 PM

also how do i change the picture that it displays to one of my car thanks!!

Skeen · Post by **Skeen** » Oct 04, 2005 10:44 PM

[QUOTE="Steve in No Va"]Sorry, you're right. But isn't it the eta version of that motor? Todd's set up is based on the 325i motor, so I would think he would have to change some of the internals to get to the same starting point as that engine.[/QUOTE]

It is the eta motor. Todd may be able to shed more light on this, but his kit should fit (boost levels may have to be lower because the motor isn't quite as strong).

CarbonFabMan, you'll want to look for an M30B35 ideally (E34 535, 735, what else?). M30B34 would be alright, but the head doesn't flow quite as well.

Post by **Jeremy** » Oct 05, 2005 12:02 AM

If you do get an m30 donor motor, you'll need the transmission and driveshaft along with it. The m20 tranny doesn't bolt up.

Jeremy

Post by **Shawn D.** » Oct 05, 2005 8:59 AM

[QUOTE="Skeen"]... you'll want to look for an M30B35 ideally (E34 535, 735, what else?). [/QUOTE]
'88 and '89 635

Velocewest · Post by **Velocewest** » Oct 05, 2005 2:05 PM

[QUOTE="Skeen"]It is the eta motor. Todd may be able to shed more light on this, but his kit should fit (boost levels may have to be lower because the motor isn't quite as strong). [/QUOTE]

M20 bottom ends are all the same, there's no difference in strength where the turbo is concerned. The only major difference in the eta engine is not all the cam journals are drilled to deliver oil. Easy fix.

M20 engines are pretty famous for breaking rocker arms at high rpm, doing a turbo for the extra torque on a low-revving eta engine would be a nice upgrade. I woudn't bet on 400 hp, though...

Post by **Jeremy** » Oct 05, 2005 3:26 PM

[QUOTE="Velocewest"]M20 bottom ends are all the same, there's no difference in strength where the turbo is concerned. The only major difference in the eta engine is not all the cam journals are drilled to deliver oil. Easy fix.[/QUOTE]

The cam journal thing is correct, but I'm not so sure about the bottom ends. If memory serves, the eta uses a different crank with a longer stroke than the standard m20 "i" motors. That's why super-eta owner swap the i head onto their block to create a nice stroker package instead of just swapping in a whole "i" motor.

Somebody please correct me if any of this is wrong.

Jeremy

MyE28.com

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Makin Horsepower///////>>>>>>>>>&